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Thomas Ice - Preterism and Zechariah 12-14

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My mistake, Zechariah and the Resurrection is never mentioned in the passages you quote.

Again, here is Zechariah 14:1-5


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

From the New Testament —

  • even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16


Those who return with Christ shown in Zechariah 14:5 and
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, will rise first: the dead in Christ will rise first.




JLB
 
Again, here is Zechariah 14:1-5


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
You can post this a dozen times and I will still ask, where is the Resurrection in the above passage? Did you know that there are saints in Heaven right now? They do not have their resurrected body yet, but they are in Heaven. The resurrection has not yet occurred and there they are. The above has no reference whatsoever to the Resurrection.
  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Still no Resurrection. Now you are mixing up events which is why you have to get a totally different reference that does speak of the Resurrection. Jesus will come as he left without no entourage, no sword and no violence. Acts 1:11 Men of Galilee, why are you standing here looking into the sky? Jesus, whom you saw taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way
From the New Testament —

  • even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16

Yes, notice Jesus is descending alone. There is a trumpet and a shout, no entourage. The dead will rise again coming out of the graves. The events in Zech began long ago and are not all in our future. The letter to the Thessalonians does not describe terrible times when women are raped and so on. That is not the state of things when Jesus comes again and Pauls letter does not describe it as being so.
Those who return with Christ shown in Zechariah 14:5 and
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, will rise first: the dead in Christ will rise first.
No, there is no indication that Christ is coming again with a military entourage. Paul does not describe it that way and obviously did not believe so. The fight and carnage described in Zech was at the fall of Jerusalem and the verses following describe Jesus and his followers going through and changing the nations which has been happening since the first century. You are mixing up events which is why you need two different passages describing two different events.
 
You know JLB, the whole of your eschatology takes place in that little piece of land in Israel. Just there. Jesus is supposedly coming to one small square of land on the earth and engaging in a bloody and violent assault. Why isn't that the atheists just decided to avoid that conflict and so never go there lest they happen to be in Jerusalem when all that breaks out?
 
I read Zech again just be itself and the effort to fit it into a future cataclysmic event with the onslaught of Jesus on the earth does not fit. Besides, I wanted to ask someone who believes this, how can one say that Jesus comes to rescue Jerusalem when it obviously happens after masses are murdered and raped and so on. What kind of rescue is that? Houses attacked, women and girls raped, masses carried off into slavery (which no longer happens today) and yet this is supposed to be a rescue. If this is a rescue in the future, how come Jesus does not come BEFORE those horrible things happen to people?
 
You can post this a dozen times and I will still ask, where is the Resurrection in the above passage?

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
.
Zechariah 14:5

The saints come with Him from heaven when He returns.

The reason they come with Him from heaven is to receive their resurrected bodies; at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16




JLB
 
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
.
Zechariah 14:5
Two saints were with him on the mt of transfiguration. Still no Resurrection. Saints being with Jesus does not meant Resurrection which has a totally different description. This does not even give a hint of them being resurrected to start a war. That is not referring to the Resurrection. Btw, immediately after the Resurrection is Judgement, not war.
The saints come with Him from heaven when He returns.
No, in Acts it says he comes as he left. But “coming in the clouds” means Judgement like in 70 AD.
The reason they come with Him from heaven is to receive their resurrected bodies; at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
That’s what you ADD to the text. It doesn’t say that.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
No war, no bloodshed, no vengeance, nothing like in Zech.
 
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Two saints were with him on the mt of transfiguration. Still no Resurrection.

Was the mount of transfiguration the Day of the Lord.

All the saints does not mean 2.

Can’t you see the context is the Day of the Lord, in Zechariah 14:5?



Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-5



JLB
 
Was the mount of transfiguration the Day of the Lord.

All the saints does not mean 2.
The mt.of transfiguration shows us that saints coming with Jesus doesn’t require the resurrection as there are saints with Jesus now.
Can’t you see the context is the Day of the Lord, in Zechariah 14:5?
Yes, clearly. It is the day of the wrath of God being poured out on harlot Israel revenging the blood of the saints and prophets from Abel to Zechariah as Jesus said. That makes sense. That God decides to be mad at some future generation for no particular reason makes no sense. They will not have crucified the son of God and will be no worse than any other.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
For them, coming. for us, came.
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
Why do some christians look forward to the above? They aren’t even rescued. If we read about the Resurrection in Thessalonians we read nothing of this sort of activity. If we read of the terrible events of Matthew 24, the Resurrection at best is when all the terribles are over and done. If we look at Revelations regarding the Resurrection, we see that immediately following this is the Judgement. No war or pillaging or rape comes after or with it.
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-5
After all the women are raped, the houses pillaged and many murdered…….there is some rescue. Why is this joyfully anticipated.

The terrible events were happening in the day of vengeance of God upon harlot Israel. That was real, no metaphor. They alone had deserved it. No other generation would bare the wrath of God for acts also done in previous generations.

Jesus coming and going with his own is a metaphor for the Gospel (sword out of his mouth) going through the earth over millennia changing nations.

But let me ask you, why would any nation besides the Muslims attack Jerusalem?
 
Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was teaching His disciples privately on the mountain of Olives, which is also called the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.


Preterism is founded upon the words … But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.


Preterist’s believe the only possible interpretation for these words can only be the events of 70 AD.

Do you honestly believe that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the wicked is “past”?



JLB
Preterism is not founded on one verse, but a consistent adherence to rules of hermeneutics, understanding of the temporary and servile nature of mosaic covt Israel, and various other foundations and principles.

Yes, not that his presence in protection was a once and done, but his coming (return) to that generation occurred through the gathering of all nations (represented by the multinational armies of Rome). See Deut 32:42

Most preterists don't believe Paul is referring to a rapture in 2 thess. Some try to teach that it happened in 70ad after those the exodus to pella.

The disbelieving of that generation were prophecied to lose their lives at the time of the coming of the new prophet and new covenant in Deut 18:15-19. Peter preached this in acts 2 or 3 and alluded to it in 2 peter 1. Stephen also referred to this in the speech that got him stoned. The wicked was referring to his Jewish enemies who rejected God's love and truths in favor of their religion. They were referred to as wicked in Deut 32 and by Jesus in his discourses.

Great white throne was first done in showing favor to the saints who retained faith and allegience to Jesus in the first century in association to Dan 7. It is a continuously present dominion and favor of those of faith in and honour to a creator and his incarnation.
 
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You
.
Zechariah 14:5

The saints come with Him from heaven when He returns.

The reason they come with Him from heaven is to receive their resurrected bodies; at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16




JLB
And we (I) believe they came with him, not bodily, but in spirit of judgement. There was weird stuff going on in Judea as the Romans went city by city, beseiging and destroying them. Rabbis were begging to be killed by the romans, acknowledging that they had failed to believe upon the messiah... Begging the rocks to fall upon them.

Paul says that.some will ask, with what type of body do they come. He calls them fools for asking.... then giving examples from nature that physical bodies do not resurrect unless through regeneration through biological seed. They come, came in spiritual bodies.

The consistent hermeneutic ripule of considering the genre of literature demands that Paul's letters be understood from the minds and era of his first readers and that they be understood as LETTERS with important facts for them, not prophecies written to future generations. Fools.

The splitting of the mount of olives is the standing of his judgement against both tribes of Israel, now paganized through Rome/Greek, and the tribes of Judah who tried to retain sin and sacrifice for sin, rejecting the new freedom from the laws of sin/death.

Take care of what you try to fight against in trying to refute fulfilled understandings. You might find yourself fighting against God.
 
The mt.of transfiguration shows us that saints coming with Jesus doesn’t require the resurrection as there are saints with Jesus now.

The saints Peter, James and John are with Jesus when they were still alive.

The saints coming with Jesus on the Day of the Lord refers to Jesus and ALL the saints who died and are with Him in heaven returning with Him.

All the saints is the key to understanding.

Day of the Lord is the key to understanding.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-5



JLB
 
And we (I) believe they came with him, not bodily, but in spirit of judgement. There was weird stuff going on in Judea as the Romans went city by city, beseiging and destroying them. Rabbis were begging to be killed by the romans, acknowledging that they had failed to believe upon the messiah... Begging the rocks to fall upon them.

Paul says that.some will ask, with what type of body do they come. He calls them fools for asking.... then giving examples from nature that physical bodies do not resurrect unless through regeneration through biological seed. They come, came in spiritual bodies.

The consistent hermeneutic ripule of considering the genre of literature demands that Paul's letters be understood from the minds and era of his first readers and that they be understood as LETTERS with important facts for them, not prophecies written to future generations. Fools.

The splitting of the mount of olives is the standing of his judgement against both tribes of Israel, now paganized through Rome/Greek, and the tribes of Judah who tried to retain sin and sacrifice for sin, rejecting the new freedom from the laws of sin/death.

Take care of what you try to fight against in trying to refute fulfilled understandings. You might find yourself fighting against God.

The events of Zechariah 14 refers to the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns destroy the wicked.


Zechariah doesn’t refer to the events of 70 AD.


Do you understand this?





JLB
 
The saints Peter, James and John are with Jesus when they were still alive.

The saints coming with Jesus on the Day of the Lord refers to Jesus and ALL the saints who died and are with Him in heaven returning with Him.
Still no resurrection needed nor mentioned and the Resurrection does not involve a violent assault as your position states.
All the saints is the key to understanding.
Well, you’re hanging und your whole position on one word. Not a chapter or passage or sentence but one word.
Day of the Lord is the key to understanding.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Yea, terrible by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly not something to look forward to. It’s also called the Day of Vengeance which happened in 70 AD.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-5
Read about the Resurrection. Afterwards there is Judgement not a bloody violent assault. Notice the action of the Lord against the nations is after the women were raped, houses looted, and a portion taken off into slavery.
 
Still no resurrection needed nor mentioned and the Resurrection does not involve a violent assault as your position states.

Again, the saints coming with Him on the Day of the Lord refers to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The saints come with Him to receive their resurrected bodies.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14


Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5




JLB
 
Again, the saints coming with Him on the Day of the Lord refers to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
No it doesn’t and all will be Resurrected including the wicked in any case after which is Judgement, not invasion.
The saints come with Him to receive their resurrected bodies.
That is no where in the text. They come as an entourage to accomplish his goals.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
The Resurrection followed by the Day of Judgement
.
Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
No Resurrection there.
The events of Zechariah 14 refers to the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns destroy the wicked.
Ah, the terribly unlucky ones who are no worse than any other generation but happened to be unfortunately living in that awful day. Bummer!! (The Jews in 70 AD were worse than any other generation of Jews. They weren’t merely unlucky.)
Zechariah doesn’t refer to the events of 70 AD.
Yes he does. Armies don’t carry off the losers into slavery anymore.
Do you understand this?
I understand what you believe and why and what I believe and why.
 
The events of Zechariah 14 refers to the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns destroy the wicke

Zechariah doesn’t refer to the events of 70 AD

Do you understand this

JLB
I understand that this is what youve been taught.

But no, zech 14 referred to the day of the lord in 70 AD.
That which the law spoke, it spoke to those under the law. So also, that which the prophets of the law prophecies, it prophecies to those within the temporary timeframe allotted for the nation of the law. The latter end and judgement of the way of sacrifice and the law was prophecied right when the law was given by Moses.

It cannot be extrapolated to a end of the world scenario when it's prophecies were confined to the time of the nation, which nation ended by the eternal new covenant.

Your trying to revive a dead horse.

Again, take care of your antipreterist teachings. Your unaware of key principles, having been taught others, such as the restoration of Israel.

Jesus referred to zech 14 in Matt 24 saying that the day of the death of the law would not be dark, nor light, but afterwards it would be light. OF (about) that day (of the death of the law) no man knew.... not the angels, nor the son, but only the father.for the sons ministry of the father was to redeem from the curse of the law.... Rom 8:2
 
I understand that this is what youve been taught.

But no, zech 14 referred to the day of the lord in 70 AD.
That which the law spoke, it spoke to those under the law. So also, that which the prophets of the law prophecies, it prophecies to those within the temporary timeframe allotted for the nation of the law. The latter end and judgement of the way of sacrifice and the law was prophecied right when the law was given by Moses.

It cannot be extrapolated to a end of the world scenario when it's prophecies were confined to the time of the nation, which nation ended by the eternal new covenant.

Your trying to revive a dead horse.

Again, take care of your antipreterist teachings. Your unaware of key principles, having been taught others, such as the restoration of Israel.

Jesus referred to zech 14 in Matt 24 saying that the day of the death of the law would not be dark, nor light, but afterwards it would be light. OF (about) that day (of the death of the law) no man knew.... not the angels, nor the son, but only the father.for the sons ministry of the father was to redeem from the curse of the law.... Rom 8:2
The idea that some very unlucky generation, no worse than previous ones, will suffer the fate described makes no sense. The idea that Jesus is coming in a very hostile and violent bloody takeover makes no sense. That is actually what Mohammed did when he came to bring his religion. The idea that modern armies want anything at all in Jerusalem makes no sense.

The whole of Dispensationalism makes no sense. Truth makes sense.
 
The idea that some very unlucky generation, no worse than previous ones, will suffer the fate described makes no sense. The idea that Jesus is coming in a very hostile and violent bloody takeover makes no sense. That is actually what Mohammed did when he came to bring his religion. The idea that modern armies want anything at all in Jerusalem makes no sense.

The whole of Dispensationalism makes no sense. Truth makes sense.
I was just thinking of this same concept of the projection of hatred for humanity that the futurists and dispensational perspectives project.

The world is not right but a great part of that is the churches teachings of a soon coming rapture and remaking of the world. No wonder ecology, overpopulation and pollution havent been at the top of the list of concerns in the last 2 centuries.
 
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