Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

Please finish then ?
How is God's penalty of death different from our " Highest Penalty " of death ?

It's not different.

 

[Butch5]

We read back in Rev 6:9-11 about the souls under the altar waiting to be avenged. The fulfilling of this will have come at this time of Christ coming as their fellow servants have all died a martyr’s death and final judgements are made (Great White Throne Judgement). Those who are sitting on symbolic thrones are all those who have died a martyr’s death being servants of God as now they reign with Christ in judgment over the nations.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection in John 5:28-29 that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments just like their are two types of death being literal and Spiritual, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

That's interesting considering John calls the resurrection of believers the "first" resurrection. If anyone is raised after that there must be at least a second resurrection. I'm sorry but there are not two types of death. I'm not sure why people keep redefining death. Well, actually, I am.

 

[Whatever]

The first death is the spiritual death you are born into.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

There is your first death and regeneration is the first resurrection.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

 

[Butch5]

What I am giving you is how one word can have so many different definitions between the Hebrew, Greek and English, but it's all in the full context of what is being taught in the whole Bible and not just one verse. These are my understandings by how I study scripture with scripture, not teacher with teacher, or religion with religion. I never ask anyone to believe me, but to at least take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves.

Here's the thing, the people who are translating aion as everlasting are the same people who make the dictionaries that say aion means everlasting. That's circular. Let's compare Scripture with Scripture.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 20:9–10.

This passage says the aion is forever and ever.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (Matt. 13:49 KJV)

This passage says the aion ends

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

This passage speaks of this aion and an aion to come.

How would you reconcile this?

 

[Butch5]

The first death is the spiritual death you are born into.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

There is your first death and regeneration is the first resurrection.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

There is no such thing as spiritual death. That's just something someone made up. Eph 2 says nothing about spiritual death.

 

[Whatever]

There is no such thing as spiritual death. That's just something someone made up. Eph 2 says nothing about spiritual death.

Well, the Bible doesn't use the word Annihilationism either.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Please finish then ?
How is God's penalty of death different from our " Highest Penalty " of death ?

It's not different.

They have to be different .
If our human penalty of death was the same as God's then according to you the person would be Annihilated when we administered the penalty .
There would be no person left for God to penalize .

 

[Butch5]

Well, the Bible doesn't use the word Annihilationism either.

Neither did I.

You see just about all of this stems from the unbiblical "Immortal Soul" doctrine. Once a person ditches that doctrine a lot of things start to fit together nicely. However, as long a one tries to hold to that doctrine they're forced to redefine terms in Scripture, because the idea of an immortal soul is not compatible with Scripture. Consider Paul's words.


2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2.

Notice in this passage that Paul said those who continue in good deeds are seeking immortality. If they're seeking immortality, then they obviously aren't currently immortal. Notice too that he equates immortality with eternal life.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:53-54 KJV)

Notice Paul said, "this mortal" He's saying we are mortal. If we're mortal and we die. we can't live on. He also says that the Father alone has immortality.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, ythe King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, adwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be dhonour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:12–16.

Notice in this passage Paul says that the only one who has immortality is the one that man has seen nor can see. That's God the Father.

So, you see, this Immortal Soul doctrine, which is the basis of the Eternal Torment doctrine, is not valid. And, without the Immortal Soul doctrine the Eternal Torment doctrine collapses because there's nothing left to torment.

 

[Butch5]

They have to be different .
If our human penalty of death was the same as God's then according to you the person would be Annihilated when we administered the penalty .
There would be no person left for God to penalize .

That's what the resurrection is all about. Man dies, returns to the dust. God resurrects that dust and judges it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You still are only giving me opinions. You've explained how you understand those passages. That doesn't necessitate that your understanding is correct. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that says the penalty for sin is eternal torment. The fact that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says eternal torment is the penalty for sin, should be a major red flag for everyone who's making this claim. We have thousands of years of communication from God in the Scripture and not once are we told that the penalty is eternal torment. Everyone in the Bible who speaks of the penalty for sin says it's death or perishing, which is death.

isn’t it your OPINION that Scripture is mistranslated? The message is clear in Rev. 20:10 and 20:15, you insist there is none because you’re spiritually blind, you dismiss that as “mistranslation” instead of your own misunderstanding.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The word anastasis, that is translated resurrection, means to stand again. The Resurrection is the resurrection of the flesh. That body that died is raised back to life. At the second death it is destroyed again. Thus, the term, second death. The same person has died twice.

Except this time not cast into the grave, but the Lake of Fire.

I'm in unbelief because I disagree with you? Does that mean your understanding is God's word? As I pointed out, the passage only speaks of three individuals suffering torment "forever and ever" which I pointed out is mistranslated. I'm going to go out on limb here and say that if Jesus and the apostles say something ends, it ends.

You didn't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible, you superimpose your preferred doctrine upon the divine revelation of God. Jesus never says that the torment in the Lake of Fire will end someday, which is corroborated with the evidence that there won't be any indicators of time, no sun, no moon, no day, no night, no aging, no death, and most definitely no clock, there's simply no time anymore. So how could it end when time doesn't exist?

Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.

You're the one who quoted Jeremiah 7:30-33 which specifically points Gehenna to the historical and literal valley of Hinnom, not me.

They got it because He explained it to them.

No, they got it because they had the eyes to see and ears to hear, because they were teachable.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's interesting considering John calls the resurrection of believers the "first" resurrection. If anyone is raised after that there must be at least a second resurrection. I'm sorry but there are not two types of death. I'm not sure why people keep redefining death. Well, actually, I am.

You know, the Sedduccees assumed that the resurrected life would be the same as their earthly life, so they used a folk tale of this one woman and seven brothers to ridicule Jesus on His teaching of resurrection. You here are doing the same thing. You assumed it's the same, but it's not. The resurrected life is not the same as the earthly mortal life, nor is the second death the same as the first death.

 

[Butch5]

isn’t it your OPINION that Scripture is mistranslated? The message is clear in Rev. 20:10 and 20:15, you insist there is none because you’re spiritually blind, you dismiss that as “mistranslation” instead of your own misunderstanding.

no, it's not my opinion. I've given you several passages from Jesus and the apostles that state plainly that the aion ends. I've given you passages from both Jesus and Paul that speak of an aion to come. The very definition of the English words, eternity, forever, and everlasting is that they do not end. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. That's not an opinion.

 

[Butch5]

Except this time not cast into the grave, but the Lake of Fire.

Agreed

You didn't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible, you superimpose your preferred doctrine upon the divine revelation of God. Jesus never says that the torment in the Lake of Fire will end someday, which is corroborated with the evidence that there won't be any indicators of time, no sun, no moon, no day, no night, no aging, no death, and most definitely no clock, there's simply no time anymore. So how could it end when time doesn't exist?

I haven't disagreed with Scripture, on the contrary, I have agreed with it. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death." I said the penalty for sin is death. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die.' I said the penalty for sin is death. You said the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. However, each time I've asked for Scripture supporting your claim there has been none. So, it would seem that I'm not the one imposing a preferred doctrine on Scripture. You say there will be no time in the Kingdom, yet Jesus and Paul both speak of an aion to come. The word aion is a measurement of time. Where did Jesus say there would be torment in the Lake of Fire? My friend, critically reading Scripture is important so that we don't read things in into. It's real easy to read one's theology into the Scriptures if we're not careful when we read. That's why I keep asking you to provide Scripture showing that the penalty for sin is eternal torment. I would hope at some point it might click and you start to question why, if eternal torment is the penalty, there is nothing that states it in all of Scripture. The only ones said to be suffering in the Lake of Fire in Rev. 20 are the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. Notice it doesn't call them being thrown into the fire the second death. It's only called the second death when wicked men are thrown in there.

You're the one who quoted Jeremiah 7:30-33 which specifically points Gehenna to the historical and literal valley of Hinnom, not me.

Yes. It was to show that Gehenna is a real place. It's not a metaphor or a figure of speech. It's not some location in a subterranean world or in some other dimension. It's real, it's on earth, and it's outside of Jerusalem. Imagine standing on Mount Zion looking out over the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) that is full of corpses that are all burning. What would that look like? Would it not look like a lake of fire? Thus, the symbolism John uses in the book of Revelation.

No, they got it because they had the eyes to see and ears to hear, because they were teachable.

Who taught them?

 

[Butch5]

You know, the Sedduccees assumed that the resurrected life would be the same as their earthly life, so they used a folk tale of this one woman and seven brothers to ridicule Jesus on His teaching of resurrection. You here are doing the same thing. You assumed it's the same, but it's not. The resurrected life is not the same as the earthly mortal life, nor is the second death the same as the first death.

Hmmm. Have you assumed that it's different? Unless Scripture tells us it's different, we have no reason to assume that it is.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

no, it's not my opinion. I've given you several passages from Jesus and the apostles that state plainly that the aion ends. I've given you passages from both Jesus and Paul that speak of an aion to come. The very definition of the English words, eternity, forever, and everlasting is that they do not end. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. That's not an opinion.

And I've given you several passages which clearly state that the fire never ends. Both Jesus and John the Baptist taught that the fire is "unquenchable" (Mark 9:48, Matthew 3:12), that means no end. That's not an opinion. The Scripture does not contradict itself.

I haven't disagreed with Scripture, on the contrary, I have agreed with it. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death." I said the penalty for sin is death. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die.' I said the penalty for sin is death. You said the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. However, each time I've asked for Scripture supporting your claim there has been none. So, it would seem that I'm not the one imposing a preferred doctrine on Scripture. You say there will be no time in the Kingdom, yet Jesus and Paul both speak of an aion to come. The word aion is a measurement of time. Where did Jesus say there would be torment in the Lake of Fire? My friend, critically reading Scripture is important so that we don't read things in into. It's real easy to read one's theology into the Scriptures if we're not careful when we read. That's why I keep asking you to provide Scripture showing that the penalty for sin is eternal torment. I would hope at some point it might click and you start to question why, if eternal torment is the penalty, there is nothing that states it in all of Scripture. The only ones said to be suffering in the Lake of Fire in Rev. 20 are the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. Notice it doesn't call them being thrown into the fire the second death. It's only called the second death when wicked men are thrown in there.

The measurements of time was specifically given in the creation week on Day 4. In the new heavens and new earth there won't be such measurements any more, so how could you determine what is the supposed "end" of your "aion"? There's an end for the "aion" of the church age, there"s an end for the "aion" of the millennial kingdom, but there's NO end for the "aion" of new heavens and new earth. "And they shall reign forever and ever," Rev. 22:5. If God is eternal, then the torment is eternal. You keep arguing that the penalty for sin is death, but death itself is cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity (Rev. 20:13-14).

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. (Gen. 1:14-15)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes. It was to show that Gehenna is a real place. It's not a metaphor or a figure of speech. It's not some location in a subterranean world or in some other dimension. It's real, it's on earth, and it's outside of Jerusalem. Imagine standing on Mount Zion looking out over the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) that is full of corpses that are all burning. What would that look like? Would it not look like a lake of fire? Thus, the symbolism John uses in the book of Revelation.

And I've pointed out that the fire in literal valley of Hinnom is quenchable, the fire in the Lake of Fire is unquenchable. Jesus was figuratively using Gehenna to teach the Lake of Fire in the same sense of using a wheat field to teach the kingdom of God.

Who taught them?

I'm not in the mood for sarcasm today.

Hmmm. Have you assumed that it's different? Unless Scripture tells us it's different, we have no reason to assume that it is.

Jesus did tell the Sedduccees that it's different, you're in denial.

"You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven."

 

[Consecrated Life]

They have to be different .
If our human penalty of death was the same as God's then according to you the person would be Annihilated when we administered the penalty .
There would be no person left for God to penalize .

That's what the resurrection is all about. Man dies, returns to the dust. God resurrects that dust and judges it.

God says that our resurrected bodies are all about being just like the body of Jesus , indestructible & eternal .

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Tenchi]

It's not semantics.

Yes, it is. And I showed why.

I gave you an example that we see all the time. When a criminal receives a punishment of 5 years, his punishment ends. It's still a punishment. The idea that punishment is eternal is based on a false premise from Greek Philosophy. That being that man can live on after the body dies.

No, the idea of eternal, conscious torment upon the decease of the physical body is derived from the teaching of Christ himself. See Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:49-50, Mark 9:43-48.

You can claim that. You can't prove it from Scripture.

Yes, I can claim it - because it is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luke 13:26-28
26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers.'
28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

Matthew 8:12
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 16:23-26
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Each of these passages in which Jesus is teaching on the punishment of hell clearly indicate separation as a feature of that punishment. So, yes, I can "prove" from Scripture that the "second death" in hell entails separation from God and is, I believe, the end, not of being, but of all well-being, as in the case of the Rich Man in Christ's parable in Luke 16.

For something to be the second, it has to be like the first. A second day, is just like the first...

No day is exactly like another. Days vary from each other widely in temperature, moisture content, air movement, cloudiness, even duration. So, no, a "second day" is not "just like the first." Far from it, often.

Thus, the second death must be just like the first, a physical death.

??? If a second death is possible for a person, what are we to make of what the first death means for him or her? Clearly, the first death has not meant annihilation, the end of all existence, which is why a second death is possible. The first death has involved separation - the soul from the body, most importantly - but separation from the "living" on earth, too. In this respect, in respect to separation, the "second death" is like the first, the person enduring the "second death" by being separated from God, the Source of All Good Things, and thus living forever in a condition devoid of all well-being, of all goodness, love, grace and divine light.

They are used of God. However, that doesn't necessitate that they mean eternal.

I was pointing out that aion or ainoios do not always mean "an age." In the parallelism of Matthew 25:46, this is certainly the case. "Eternal" or "everlasting" cannot mean "an age" since this would limit the duration of the life of the righteous, which life the Bible plainly and repeatedly affirms is without end. If the parallel of the verse is to be preserved (as it ought to be), the punishment of the wicked must be unending, also.

So crystal clear that you can't post a single passage that says the wicked would suffer for eternity.

Do you know who this sounds like? Who said to Eve, "Has God said?"

See above.

 

[Butch5]

isn’t it your OPINION that Scripture is mistranslated? The message is clear in Rev. 20:10 and 20:15, you insist there is none because you’re spiritually blind, you dismiss that as “mistranslation” instead of your own misunderstanding.

I said, the word aion is mistranslated. However, you've yet to show anything from Scripture that says the penalty for sin is eternal torment. You've also not shown anything from Scripture suggesting that the eternal life, the gift of God, is given to the wicked.