I S R A E L . . .

[reba]

Thank you 8 for the clarification

 

[Eventide]

I S R A E L . . . I N . . . T H E . . . R E G E N E R A T I O N

Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.

I believe Paul is one of the 12 Apostles on the 12 Thrones. And we the Church Are witnesses along with Him to Israel.

But Like we have been saying It is minor. You keep preaching these distinctions between the Church and Israel. They should be seen by the believer.

You could very well be right Gr8, and if you have strong convictions on these things then that's a good thing imo.

IT's so beyond what we can possibly imagine I'm sure.. when that Day finally does come..

 

[Ryan]

Numbers 30:1-2 Then Moses spoke to the heads of the tribes of the sons of Israel, saying, “This is the word which the Lord has commanded. 2 If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or takes an oath to bind himself with a binding obligation, he shall not violate his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.

Not only is man bound to this commandment, but God is as well. Just let scriptures speak for themselves:

Exodus 6:8 I will bring you to the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I will give it to you for a possession[properly translated as heritage]; I am the Lord.’â€

Isaiah 54:7-10 “For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
8 “In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,â€
Says the Lord your Redeemer.
9 “For this is like the days of Noah to Me,
When I swore that the waters of Noah
Would not flood the earth again;
So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you
Nor will I rebuke you.
10 “For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake,
But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you,
And My covenant of peace will not be shaken,[removed]â€
Says the Lord who has compassion on you.


Jeremiah 33:23-26 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 “Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. 25 Thus says the Lord, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, 26 then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’â€

Psalms 105:8-11 8 He has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the portion of your inheritance,â€

I don't think we have passed a thousand generations yet. There is still Israel, the ones whose branches have been cut off that still need to be grafted back into their Olive Tree, and there are those that are already on their own tree. Point being, God knows who the branches are that are lying on the ground, and which ones are feeding from the root.

 

[Sinthesis]

Israel is just a name which can be applied to many things/people to illustrate a contrast with another thing/people. For every instance of the word Israel, you have to ask what/who is the Jacob to that Israel.

Opinions are certainly welcome... and this statement clearly lacks any scriptural support.

It's funny, you start a thread and post scriptural information within it... and typically people respond to anything BUT what the person writes..

Care to comment on anything which has been written, or will this simply be your drive by statement having nothing to do with what has been written ?

The scriptural support for this statement exists throughout the Bible. The reason you believe people have a difficult time understanding who Israel is, is because you yourself have a flawed understanding of Israel. Israel is not always Israel. The only way to make sense of that seemingly logical contradiction is to understand that there is more than one way to define Israel. Israel was not always Israel. Before he was Jacob. Israel is not just Jacob's 12 sons, because Ephraim and Manasseh were also counted as sons of Israel, even though they are not sons of Jacob.

 

[Sinthesis]

As mentioned in the OP, I can't understand why so many seem to have difficulty understanding who Israel is...

Is the word of God not perfectly clear here.. ?

Jacob... his twelve sons... the twelve tribes of Israel...?

Jacob, who is called Israel.

Twelve Apostles, who shall sit upon twelve thrones in the regeneration, judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

The mystery pertaining to Israel... how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Israel, the only nation on earth that is not GENTILE..

Revelation showing us clearly each of the twelve tribes with the seal of God in their foreheads.. with respect to the things which shall be hereafter..

How is all of this not painfully obvious ?

Clearly? Which twelve tribes exactly? Why those twelve? Was Isaac a gentile? Was Esau a gentile? Were Jacob's wives gentiles prior to their marriage? If it is painfully obvious then the answers should be easy.

 

[Sinthesis]

ow that His Apostles shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel...?

I don't see this.
Only eleven apostles stayed true to Jesus.
Who is the 12th?
Matthias? Barnabas? Paul?

Your assumption is obviously Matthias but he was not there.

A better reading is that those who have followed Jesus to the end will sit on thrones ruling all of Israel.

Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.

Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?

Hello Eventide,

I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.

I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.

I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.

SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?

If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.

Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.

I agree. Paul was definitely an Apostle, therefore one of 'the 12', though born out of time as it were.

Mar 9:33 ¶ And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
Mar 9:34 - But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest.
​

In my opinion Paul was the greatest apostle, which would have doubtless been a surprise to those others while they were arguing amongst themselves. It is also interesting that the last chosen would be the first in stature.

 

[Sinthesis]

Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

God is telling Pharaoh that the inheritance of the entire world will pass to Israel. Jesus as the physical descendent of Israel and Spiritual Son of God fulfills this scripture. In this sense Jesus is Israel.

 

[Sinthesis]

yet if isreal is NOT a church then the law returns and the way of salvation for any man is by mosaic ordinance in the millennium. I don't recall paul loosing his name or inhertence cause he was a Christian.

Saul became Paul, and gave up his prior understanding of theology for the revelation of Christ.

Phl 3:8 - Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
​

The inheritance Saul expected as a Pharisee became as nothing compared to what he would inherit from Jesus as a Christian.

 

[Sinthesis]

Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.

Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?

Hello Eventide,

I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.

I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.

I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.

SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?

If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.

Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.

Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.

Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.

Just as there are more than 12 named tribes of Israel, there are also more than 12 named apostles of Jesus.

 

[Sinthesis]

One thing is certain...

In the regeneration, when the Son of man sits in the throne of His glory, His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is clearly future so it means that this is post resurrection of the dead.

Actually it means that the OT is interpreted in light of the NT. Thus the actions and beliefs of the OT covenant people are judged by the standards of the NT covenant people, Christianity. As Christians we do this already.

 

[Sinthesis]

This sort of gives new meaning to Romans 9 where we read of The Lord loving Jacob...

Who is Jacob ?

Jacob is... I S R A E L ...

Israel is God's elect, just as the church of God is His elect.

Jacob was not always named Israel. Jacob was given his new name by God at a crossroads in his life. We are given the name Christian at a crossroads.

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.

If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Absolutely not Reba. In the Mill. there will still be people having babies and living physical lives. They will still have the choice to make.

Christ will rule on the earth in the Mill. and some will still not choose Christ, Even with perfect environment and a perfect Judge. And perfect witnesses(you and I)

Its hard to fathom, with all of this that Satan will still have a Army of people with Him at the end of the 1000 years.

How is this interpretation of the millennium any different than what we see around us today?

 

[jasoncran]

yet if isreal is NOT a church then the law returns and the way of salvation for any man is by mosaic ordinance in the millennium. I don't recall paul loosing his name or inhertence cause he was a Christian.

Saul became Paul, and gave up his prior understanding of theology for the revelation of Christ.

Phl 3:8 - Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
​

The inheritance Saul expected as a Pharisee became as nothing compared to what he would inherit from Jesus as a Christian.

yes, but he was still a man of jewish lineage. his genes didn't change. nor did he not also say that he would become a jew to the jew? I do see that he counted that as dung but that doesn't mean he didn't use jewish thoughts to line them up with jesus and any other biblical thing.

ie the idea of the shalom greeting done by jews is really similar to the paul's grace and peace.

 

[2468justme]

Food for thought

(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house ofIsrael dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by theirdoings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them forthe blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith theyhad polluted it.

(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel,Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house ofIsrael, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among theheathen, whither ye went.

(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen,and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evilways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves inyour own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saiththe Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your ownways, O house of Israel.

(Jer 24:9 KJV) And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdomsof the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt anda curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

The curse has been lifted. Does anyone here know why?

 

[2468justme]

What confused me the most about the above is the time line. They were scattered for their doings and then gathered again to be judged. At least this is how I read the scripture. Taking the above into account, is the creation of “Israel” part of it or not and if not please explain.

please excuse the text size it seems I cannot control it

 

[2468justme]

Posters, what does reply with draft mean?

and\or draft this post mean?

 

[2468justme]

bye

 

[Mike S]

The first shall be last and the last shall be first...

I've wondered about his before and have my theories about what it means...What does this mean exactly?

I think, Edward, that Jesus provides the answer with the parable that followed, the parable of the workers in the vineyard. He was saying that being first or last here and now is unimportant in salvation and the coming Kingdom. What we do in works, or what we have in riches, does not determine our future in Christ, just as it didn't matter to the landowner who worked first or last, many who are first will be last.

 

[Eventide]

One thing is certain...

In the regeneration, when the Son of man sits in the throne of His glory, His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is clearly future so it means that this is post resurrection of the dead.

Actually it means that the OT is interpreted in light of the NT. Thus the actions and beliefs of the OT covenant people are judged by the standards of the NT covenant people, Christianity. As Christians we do this already.

And you believe this simply because you believe that The Lord Jesus Christ returned in 70AD...

Right ?

And I must conclude this simply because this verse is contextually tied to The Lord coming and then sitting upon the throne of His glory, in the regeneration.

 

[Eventide]

Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.

If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Absolutely not Reba. In the Mill. there will still be people having babies and living physical lives. They will still have the choice to make.

Christ will rule on the earth in the Mill. and some will still not choose Christ, Even with perfect environment and a perfect Judge. And perfect witnesses(you and I)

Its hard to fathom, with all of this that Satan will still have a Army of people with Him at the end of the 1000 years.

How is this interpretation of the millennium any different than what we see around us today?

Perhaps because most Christians can see the simple fact that Satan is not bound and is the god of this present evil world, along with the rulers of this dark world...

Although if you'd like to believe that Satan is bound and that the nations are not deceived, then by all means.. Interpret it that way.