Immaculate Conception

wondering said:

Even catholic theologians are not sure when God stepped in,,,before conception, at conception, after conception.

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The dogmatic definition is:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ineffabilis Deus​

miamited said:

Come on man! The word God uses to describe Mary is merely 'blessed and highly favored'. She was just a Jewish woman, much like Abraham and Daniel and Ezekiel and so many, many other people that God used to bring about His promise. Mary was one of them. Certainly she is portrayed as a godly, believing woman who apparently honored God's law, as she claimed never having broken the law in any kind of sexual relation. Just as we find in any descriptions of the other people who served God in His work to bring about His promise, they are usually told to us as having been people who honored and worshipped and obeyed God, somewhat better than the general public.

All this stuff about Mary being somehow related to or particularly righteous and free of sin, is all just made up by those who have found some measure of comfort in their faith to be able to say to us, "I've talked with the mother of God."

As far as I can find in the Scriptures, God determined Mary to be a worthy created person to carry out her part of His great plan of salvation. Just as God found Noah and Abram and Jeremiah and Elisha and David to be the human participants to tell the stories of how God worked in and through their lives. Daniel is not 'immaculate'!

Yes, Jesus had to be born without the natural sin nature that God's word says that all of us share with Adam. But that sin nature passes through the male. It may be why men have a 'Y' chromosome, although that is purely speculative on my part But I firmly believe that the 'natural sin nature' that the Scriptures tells us is passed down through the ages, is passed through the male line. I support that with the fact that Jesus said that it came down from Adam, and never even mentions Eve's part in it.

However, in order to really make any real and known to be true claim of the matter, we would need to know 'how' God impregnated Eve. Did the Holy Spirit place an already fertilized ovum in Mary's womb or did the Holy Spirit somehow fertilize one of Mary's eggs? If the Holy Spirit implanted an already fertilized egg that originated from God in Mary's womb, then the argument of her having any human sin nature to pass to the baby is mute. That means that if we somehow, today, found a drop of Jesus' blood and did a DNA test, we'd be scratching our heads as to his parentage.

God bless,
Ted

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All personal opinion and not a scripture for evidence.

As I pointed out in post #3 there is a whole thread on this in the Catholic Forum

miamited said:

wondering,



Come on man! The word God uses to describe Mary is merely 'blessed and highly favored'. She was just a Jewish woman, much like Abraham and Daniel and Ezekiel and so many, many other people that God used to bring about His promise. Mary was one of them. Certainly she is portrayed as a godly, believing woman who apparently honored God's law, as she claimed never having broken the law in any kind of sexual relation. Just as we find in any descriptions of the other people who served God in His work to bring about His promise, they are usually told to us as having been people who honored and worshipped and obeyed God, somewhat better than the general public.

All this stuff about Mary being somehow related to or particularly righteous and free of sin, is all just made up by those who have found some measure of comfort in their faith to be able to say to us, "I've talked with the mother of God."

As far as I can find in the Scriptures, God determined Mary to be a worthy created person to carry out her part of His great plan of salvation. Just as God found Noah and Abram and Jeremiah and Elisha and David to be the human participants to tell the stories of how God worked in and through their lives. Daniel is not 'immaculate'!

Yes, Jesus had to be born without the natural sin nature that God's word says that all of us share with Adam. But that sin nature passes through the male. It may be why men have a 'Y' chromosome, although that is purely speculative on my part But I firmly believe that the 'natural sin nature' that the Scriptures tells us is passed down through the ages, is passed through the male line. I support that with the fact that Jesus said that it came down from Adam, and never even mentions Eve's part in it.

However, in order to really make any real and known to be true claim of the matter, we would need to know 'how' God impregnated Eve. Did the Holy Spirit place an already fertilized ovum in Mary's womb or did the Holy Spirit somehow fertilize one of Mary's eggs? If the Holy Spirit implanted an already fertilized egg that originated from God in Mary's womb, then the argument of her having any human sin nature to pass to the baby is mute. That means that if we somehow, today, found a drop of Jesus' blood and did a DNA test, we'd be scratching our heads as to his parentage.

God bless,
Ted

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Hi Ted
I'm here, but on a phone...
Later.

BTW, I'm a girl.

Mungo said:

The dogmatic definition is:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ineffabilis Deus​

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This is a dogma?

Is Ineffabilis Deus a bull?

Mungo said:

The dogmatic definition is:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ineffabilis Deus​

Click to expand...

I've often said that
FULL OF GRACE
means there's no room for evil/sin/sinful nature, etc.

wondering said:

Hi Ted
I'm here, but on a phone...
Later.

BTW, I'm a girl.

View attachment 14713

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It's a phrase...Come on man! I'm sorry, but I looked through the post and may have missed it, but is there somewhere, other than this phrase, where I referred to you with male pronouns? I generally try to check that sort of thing if a mention or am specifically talking to someone and need to use a pronoun. However, I've messed up a time or two before. And if the avatar is any indication, a lovely girl at that.

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

It's a phrase...Come on man! I'm sorry, but I looked through the post and may have missed it, but is there somewhere, other than this phrase, where I referred to you with male pronouns? I generally try to check that sort of thing if a mention or am specifically talking to someone and need to use a pronoun. However, I've messed up a time or two before. And if the avatar is any indication, a lovely girl at that.

God bless,
Ted

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Thou art canceled over that

wondering said:

This is a dogma?

Is Ineffabilis Deus a bull?

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It's an "Apostolic Constitution" - "the most solemn kind of document issued by a pope in his own name" according to catholiccitizens.org. It ranks above an encyclical.

Mungo said:

As I pointed out in post #3 there is a whole thread on this in the Catholic Forum

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Right! And if that's where this is going then this thread may be better served, at least in finding agreement on the issue, in that forum. This is an open forum and I don't happen to espouse to, support, or encourage or entice anyone to understand anything other than the Jewish woman Mary was nothing more than a Jewish woman named Mary.

God most absolutely did make her someone on this earth who was blessed beyond a measure that anyone has ever been so blessed of God. When Mary sang that she would be called blessed, it was from that point that she was then called blessed. As far as we know, no one ever referred to Mary, before the angel Gabriel ever visited her, as 'blessed'.

I'm sure there is a thread on the subject over in the Catholic forums, but then, this curious person that is asking is likely only going to hear the Catholic response. Which I don't hold as truth.

I'm not really clear on why you posted the link to my thread when I would think you'd want to attach it to the poster looking for such information. Me? I'm fully, completely convicted and decided on the matter.

God bless,
Ted

jasonc said:

Thou art canceled over that

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Oh Great Fear and Trembling was had by all! LOL! Thanks jasonc

miamited said:

Oh Great Fear and Trembling was had by all! LOL! Thanks jasonc

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Lol

Hi wondering

wondering said:

Even catholic theologians are not sure when God stepped in,,,before conception, at conception, after conception.

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Right! My point. We neither can be dogmatic as to 'how' exactly Jesus was born without sin. We just know that God's word professes it and that means I believe it. I can't tell you how God mashed our Sun together either and hung it where it is in our solar system. But what I know is that God's word professes that He did make our sun, the earth and everything that exists in our universe and I, therefore, believe.

Similarly, I'm all in agreement that Jesus was sinless from the moment that he began to exist as a human person, and that is declared in the Scriptures. All this stuff about Mary being sinless or also somehow immacuately conceived in her mother's womb, uhh that's more like the rules the Jewish leadership made up to show how we should honor God's Sabbath. It just can't be proven through the Scriptures.

People read words of God's affirmation to someone and his angels lauding praise upon them and immediately think that they must have somehow been born into their life on this earth through some special method. Surely this person didn't have parents who had intercourse one day and the mother came up in a month carrying a child. NO! Not at all!! They were carried down by a gentle breeze in a reed basket with downy fluffy wrappings by the Holy Spirit.

There were very godly men and women in Israel that didn't have to be specially conceived. John the Baptist stands out. There are actually a number of places in the Scriptures where we might 'fill in' some of 'how' an event came to be. How did Sarah have a child? Scriptures tell us that she was past the age of childbearing. Immaculately conceived?

yes/no

John the Baptist, as I've mentioned, was special from birth and also had an angel visit his parent/s. He had a very, very important role in the life of God's Son here on the earth. His life, according to the testimony of the angel that visited his father, was all planned out by God before John was even born. He was born with God's Spirit. Nobody has ever been attested in that way in the Scriptures. Immaculately conceived?

yes/no

Just some things to consider about this issue of someone other than Jesus, having an immaculately conceived beginning.

God bless,
Ted

Hi Mungo

I am certainly not looking for any kind of fight or ugliness in this matter.

Mungo said:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

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About my statements on the subject here, you responded:

Mungo said:

All personal opinion and not a scripture for evidence.

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With all respect and deepest sincerety, can you point out the Scripture that is in yours?

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Right! And if that's where this is going then this thread may be better served, at least in finding agreement on the issue, in that forum. This is an open forum and I don't happen to espouse to, support, or encourage or entice anyone to understand anything other than the Jewish woman Mary was nothing more than a Jewish woman named Mary.

God most absolutely did make her someone on this earth who was blessed beyond a measure that anyone has ever been so blessed of God. When Mary sang that she would be called blessed, it was from that point that she was then called blessed. As far as we know, no one ever referred to Mary, before the angel Gabriel ever visited her, as 'blessed'.

I'm sure there is a thread on the subject over in the Catholic forums, but then, this curious person that is asking is likely only going to hear the Catholic response. Which I don't hold as truth.

I'm not really clear on why you posted the link to my thread when I would think you'd want to attach it to the poster looking for such information. Me? I'm fully, completely convicted and decided on the matter.

God bless,
Ted

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I have to agree with you.

Hi again Mungo

Look, I'm just going to make a couple of points here.

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, the Savior of the human race was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Let's look at was this claim actually says. We declare, pronounce and define...
Ok, so this is some group telling me that they are speaking out in support of something and also to define that something. Right?

...that the doctrine which holds that the most BLessed Virgin Mary,...

What is it that they are attesting to: that there is a doctrine that has been established which 'hold's some things about the blessed virgin, Mary. Their proclamation has something to do with some doctrine concerning Mary.

...in the first instance of her conception,...

I'm honestly not even sure what that means. Did Mary have a 'second' instance of conception? Did she go through her mother's womb and out her birth canal...twice?

...by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God...

Agreed! Mary was honored to carry His Son, the vessel of His salvation, through pregnancy and his childhood. That she was given that honor and privelage by the grace of Almighty God is an absolute and unwavering truth.

...in view of the merits of Jesus Christ...

Again, not really sure what that means. In view of the merits of Jesus Christ. I mean, honestly I often stand and mentally consider and 'view' the merits of Jesus Christ. He is the Lord!! But I'm really not sure what is being conveyed here. It doesn't seem to really be any clearer if we put the phraseology together: by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ.

...the Savior of the human race,...

This is a statement defining 'who' Jesus is and I have absolutely no challenge to any claim that Jesus is the Savior of the human race.

...the Savior of the human race was preserved free from all stain of original sin...

More descriptive phraseology of 'who' Jesus is.

...is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ok, Yes, Jesus is the Savior of the world sent by God and so we're all shaking our head yes, yes, but then we forget that this isn't talking about Jesus! This is trying to get people to believe that because Jesus was special in all those ways, then his mother must have been, too.

Naaaaah!!!

Please note my friend that in all of that entire piece of your 'doctrinal thesis', there is not one single piece of Scriptural evidence offered to suppor it...either. OK?

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

It's a phrase...Come on man! I'm sorry, but I looked through the post and may have missed it, but is there somewhere, other than this phrase, where I referred to you with male pronouns? I generally try to check that sort of thing if a mention or am specifically talking to someone and need to use a pronoun. However, I've messed up a time or two before. And if the avatar is any indication, a lovely girl at that.

God bless,
Ted

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LOL
Don't be so serious!

My brother calls me MAN.
But he used to be a hippy back in the day.
Maybe you were to?!

Been living here the past 22 years.
It sounded funny to me.
So, it's OK man...
no harm done.

Mungo said:

It's an "Apostolic Constitution" - "the most solemn kind of document issued by a pope in his own name" according to catholiccitizens.org. It ranks above an encyclical.

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I never heard of it.
Would you easily put up a link?
Otherwise I'll look for it.

Regarding my thread about exactly WHEN this immaculate conception occurred,
I did hear some talk (from those that should know) that there was some discussion about the WHEN.
But the only big difference would be:

BEFORE conception...which would mean that God predestined Mary, which He probably did, and got her ready for her role.

The AT CONDEPTION or JUST AFTER IT is a matter of milliseconds and doesn't matter all that much, unless, I guess, you're one of those fussy theologians!

Hi wondering
It's just so hard to tell in this format when people are trying to be humorous or sarcastic. Unfortunately, one of the times it happened before, the person seemed a bit upset about it and accused me of not reading the poster information, which was true, but I now am a little gun shy about it and like I say, it's just so hard to tell without 'LOL"s or laugh emojis.


Thanks for the grace...I'm sure I'll need more.

God bless,
Ted

Hi wondering

wondering said:

The AT CONDEPTION or JUST AFTER IT is a matter of milliseconds and doesn't matter all that much, unless, I guess, you're one of those fussy theologians!

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I'm not sure that anyone's really too confused about 'when' it happened. I think the confusion is in 'how' it happened. As I've asked here, there could be some necessary (to God) reason that the embryo of Jesus was fully formed in heaven or by the 'hands' of the Holy Spirit and then that already fertilized zygot is attached to a woman's womb. Not a whole lot different than egg fertilization techniques outside of the womb today, but of course, without all the medical personnel and equipment.

If that's the case, then there is no sin nature in Jesus because he would have no human DNA or blood or anything that would genetically tie him to either his mother or father.

If, on the other hand, Mary was ovulating and the Holy Spirit used some God made sperm to fertilize the egg, then Mary's standing in sin might make a difference to some, although I don't think it does.

I remember the question coming up many years ago and I did some study on it and it seems that even if God fertilized one Mary's eggs, there is no blood passed from a pregnant woman to her fetus. The food and oxygen in the blood are transferred through the placenta. They seem to pass through the placenta without the two bloods ever mixing to withdraw the necessary oxygen and food for the fetus.

It's a really marvelous and wonderfully skillful and wise design that the two bloods would never mix. And why would that be of importance in the birth procedure?

God bless,
Ted

wondering said:

LOL
Don't be so serious!

My brother calls me MAN.
But he used to be a hippy back in the day.
Maybe you were to?!

Been living here the past 22 years.
It sounded funny to me.
So, it's OK man...
no harm done.

Click to expand...

Second one to be cancelled.

Toleration of misgendering,you are Cynthia .lol