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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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A case for the Trinity
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Oats
Member
I'm quoting this from Mere Christianity...
He says that if you can imagine two books. One book is A and The other is B.
Now picture that these two books have been sitting on a table forever and ever. Now book B is on top of book A....and it has on top of it forever. But all the same A's position would not have existed before B's position. In other words the result does not come after the cause.
Of course results usually do...You eat the Taco..You get the indigestion afterwards.
But it is not so with all causes and results.
God is a being which contains three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube contains six squares while remaining one body.But as soon as I begin trying to explain how the three are connected I have to use words which make it seem as if one came before the other. The First Person is called the Father and the Second the Son. We say the First person begets or produces the Second person. We call it begetting and not making because what he produces is of the same kind as himself. In that way the word Father is the only word to use. But unfortunately it suggest that He is there first just as a human father exist before his son. But that is not so. There is no before of after about the matter.And that is why I have spent some time trying to make clear how one thing can be the source or cause, or origin of something without being there before it. The Son exist because the Father exist: But there was never a time before the father produced the Son....
HE GOES ON TO THE HOLY SPIRIT
And that, by the way, is perhaps the most important difference between Christian and all other religions: that in Christianity God is not a static thing - not even a person - but a dynamic, pulsating activity, a life, almost a kind of drama. Almost, if you will not think me irreverent, a kind of dance. The union between the Father and the Son is such a live concrete thing that this union itself is also a Person. I know this is almost inconceivable, but look at it thus. You know that among human beings, when they get together in a family, or a club, or a trade union, people talk about the 'spirit' of that family, or club, or trade union. They talk about its 'spirit' because the individual members, when they are together. Do really develop particular ways of talking and behaving which they would not have if they were apart.' It is as if a sort of communal personality came into existence. Of course, it is not a real person: it is only rather like a person. But that is just one of the differences between God and us. What grows out of the joint life of the Father and Son is a real Person, is in fact the Third of the three Persons who are God.
This third Person is called, in technical language, the Holy Ghost or the 'spirit' of God. Do not be worried or surprised if you find it (or Him) rather vaguer or more shadowy in your mind than the other two. I think there is a reason why that must be so. In the Christian life you are not usually looking at Him. He is always acting through you. If you think of the Father as something 'out there,' in front of you, and of the Son as someone standing at your side, helping you to pray, trying to turn you into another son, then you have to think of the third Person as something inside you, or behind you. Perhaps some people might find it easier to begin with the third Person and work backwards. God is love, and that love works through men-especially through the whole community of Christians. But this spirit of love is, from all eternity, a love going on between the Father and the Son.
He says that if you can imagine two books. One book is A and The other is B.
Now picture that these two books have been sitting on a table forever and ever. Now book B is on top of book A....and it has on top of it forever. But all the same A's position would not have existed before B's position. In other words the result does not come after the cause.
Of course results usually do...You eat the Taco..You get the indigestion afterwards.
But it is not so with all causes and results.
God is a being which contains three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube contains six squares while remaining one body.But as soon as I begin trying to explain how the three are connected I have to use words which make it seem as if one came before the other. The First Person is called the Father and the Second the Son. We say the First person begets or produces the Second person. We call it begetting and not making because what he produces is of the same kind as himself. In that way the word Father is the only word to use. But unfortunately it suggest that He is there first just as a human father exist before his son. But that is not so. There is no before of after about the matter.And that is why I have spent some time trying to make clear how one thing can be the source or cause, or origin of something without being there before it. The Son exist because the Father exist: But there was never a time before the father produced the Son....
HE GOES ON TO THE HOLY SPIRIT
And that, by the way, is perhaps the most important difference between Christian and all other religions: that in Christianity God is not a static thing - not even a person - but a dynamic, pulsating activity, a life, almost a kind of drama. Almost, if you will not think me irreverent, a kind of dance. The union between the Father and the Son is such a live concrete thing that this union itself is also a Person. I know this is almost inconceivable, but look at it thus. You know that among human beings, when they get together in a family, or a club, or a trade union, people talk about the 'spirit' of that family, or club, or trade union. They talk about its 'spirit' because the individual members, when they are together. Do really develop particular ways of talking and behaving which they would not have if they were apart.' It is as if a sort of communal personality came into existence. Of course, it is not a real person: it is only rather like a person. But that is just one of the differences between God and us. What grows out of the joint life of the Father and Son is a real Person, is in fact the Third of the three Persons who are God.
This third Person is called, in technical language, the Holy Ghost or the 'spirit' of God. Do not be worried or surprised if you find it (or Him) rather vaguer or more shadowy in your mind than the other two. I think there is a reason why that must be so. In the Christian life you are not usually looking at Him. He is always acting through you. If you think of the Father as something 'out there,' in front of you, and of the Son as someone standing at your side, helping you to pray, trying to turn you into another son, then you have to think of the third Person as something inside you, or behind you. Perhaps some people might find it easier to begin with the third Person and work backwards. God is love, and that love works through men-especially through the whole community of Christians. But this spirit of love is, from all eternity, a love going on between the Father and the Son.
dadof10
Member
shad said:
This does not logically follow. Staying with Drew's example of his boss, certainly you can see a scenario where Drew is equal to his boss in certain ways, subordinate to his boss in other ways and greater than his boss in no way, can't you? Certainly it is possible?
I doesn't follow that if Drew and his boss are equal in some ways, Drew would NECESSARILY have to be GREATER than his boss in some ways. It is probably so, but not necessary for there to be equality.
francisdesales
Member
shad said:
Shad, with all due respect, you are avoiding the issue, which is why you are still unable to comprehend that you are in error...
If I say "I am equal to Barrack Obama" and then "Barrack Obama is greater than I", the two do not have to be contradictory phrases...
The first can relate to our physical natures. We are both humans, and "all men are created equal". Correct? This refers to our equality on the scale of our nature, our beings.
However, would anyone say that because of our equal human natures, that Mr. Obama's role on this earth is the same as mine? In that regard, he is my superior. By his office, his equal nature holds a power that I do not have access to.
Same with the Trinity, which is called "theology", the study of God Himself.. Our discussion on the equality of Jesus and the Father is regarding the nature of these two "Persons". Jesus is God. The Father is God. There is no superiority when refering to the Nature of Divinity. There can only be one divinity, and because it is infinite, there cannot be two. Thus, the two person of the Divinity, the Godhead, must be equal in all ways (as Scriptures tell us).
Trinity has NOTHING to do with the Divine Economy. The Economy is how God acts "outside" of His nature. As such, because the Son is sent, Jesus can refer to this act and say that the Father is greater, since He is being sent, not the Father. But "inside" the Godhead, actually, NO ONE is sent, since God is EVERYWHERE. Wherever there is creation, the Father is there, and so is His Divine Word, the Son, so in reality, the idea of being Sent is an anthropomorphic idea that enables man to understand a relationship between the two, NOT that the Father occupies one space and He is sending the Son to another space.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
dadof10 said:francisdesales said:
What does it say? D-R-I-N-K M-O-R-E O-V-A-L-T-I-N-E. Oh man...
Careful, Ralphie, you'll put someone's eye out!!! :biglaugh
There are many Bible verses that link the Divine Nature of our Lord Jesus The Christ within the Divine Nature of The Father. The LORD didn't ask us to understand that, He asked us to believe it as He said.
John 14:6-11
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.
11 Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.
(KJV)
Truly, if one thinks our Lord Jesus was a man only, then why can't other men be a Saviour also? Why can't others be "in the Father" and The Father in them?
THERE'S THE RUB...
In the pagan mystery schools of initiation throughout history, the idea that man can become his own god was part of their ancient belief. That idea began with the serpent in Eden (Gen.3). That false idea is still being taught by the fraternities of mystical initiation today. Their teaching must delegate our Lord Jesus Christ down to being only a man and not co-equal with God The Father, because they do not want to admit that only Jesus of Nazareth is God The Saviour, born through woman's womb by The Holy Spirit. Nor do they want to admit that we all must go through Christ Jesus for Salvation. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator to The Father. Instead, they teach we can save ourselves by becoming 'Christ-like', actually becoming our own 'Christ'.
I'm not joking about that false teaching among the mystery school initiates. The old doctrines of Gnosticism is part of that idea, since they believed that our Lord Jesus did not actually die on the cross, but that His disciples removed His body off the cross beforehand. Their teaching includes the idea of self-perfection through mystical exercises and ascetic living, trying to become god-like. They only recognize Jesus as a highly developed spiritual "adept" or "avatar". Within that is a belief that around every 2,000 years God sends His Spirit to earth through a highly developed person ("avatar") to slowly prepare peoples in the world for a return to some ancient Atlantis-type utopian reality (seen the movie Avatar? That's not a new theme. It's an old theme from the pagan mysteries). They claim our Lord Jesus was only one of several avatars, others being Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, Muhammed, etc., basically the founders of the world's major religions of history.
They claim that is possible with the idea of a Christ-Spirit, or Christ-Consciousness, like a force in the universe that anyone may atone to, and become an "adept" master (sound like oriental philosophy? It's included in their system). Per that, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammed, Confuscious, Krisha, and even our Lord Jesus simply atoned to that Christ-Consciousness in the sky, and became highly spiritual adept masters.
This is why they cannot admit that our Lord Jesus Christ is God, like Isaiah 9:6 does declare Jesus as The Father also. If they admitted Jesus is God The Saviour, then where would that leave Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammed, etc.? It would reduce the effect of those religions that treat them as holy prophets, and elevate our Lord Jesus above them if it was admitted that Jesus was more than just a prophet, and more than human.
This is why one of their 'tells' is the false belief that ALL religious paths lead to the same God and same Salvation. That's why they hate when we true Christians declare that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY of Salvation to GOD The Father. Christ Jesus did die on the cross as witnessed by His Apostles and disciples, and The Father raised Him from the dead as also witnessed by Christ's Apostles and disciples. None other in any other religion has done that. Our Heavenly Father made certain Jesus The Christ's Blood shed upon the cross would be the only True Mark of His Promised Salvation. Any other way will not measure up.
Just think, per the mystery schools of initiation, YOU can become your OWN Christ, simply by tuning into the force of Christ-Consciousness like the man Jesus did! You don't really need Jesus per their view. You can become your OWN Jesus, and even do your OWN Salvation!
Every time someone tries to claim our Lord Jesus Christ was only a human man, and not God The Son, Emmanuel (God with us) as written, then that old false pagan mystery school belief comes to mind.
John 14:6-11
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.
11 Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.
(KJV)
Truly, if one thinks our Lord Jesus was a man only, then why can't other men be a Saviour also? Why can't others be "in the Father" and The Father in them?
THERE'S THE RUB...
In the pagan mystery schools of initiation throughout history, the idea that man can become his own god was part of their ancient belief. That idea began with the serpent in Eden (Gen.3). That false idea is still being taught by the fraternities of mystical initiation today. Their teaching must delegate our Lord Jesus Christ down to being only a man and not co-equal with God The Father, because they do not want to admit that only Jesus of Nazareth is God The Saviour, born through woman's womb by The Holy Spirit. Nor do they want to admit that we all must go through Christ Jesus for Salvation. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator to The Father. Instead, they teach we can save ourselves by becoming 'Christ-like', actually becoming our own 'Christ'.
I'm not joking about that false teaching among the mystery school initiates. The old doctrines of Gnosticism is part of that idea, since they believed that our Lord Jesus did not actually die on the cross, but that His disciples removed His body off the cross beforehand. Their teaching includes the idea of self-perfection through mystical exercises and ascetic living, trying to become god-like. They only recognize Jesus as a highly developed spiritual "adept" or "avatar". Within that is a belief that around every 2,000 years God sends His Spirit to earth through a highly developed person ("avatar") to slowly prepare peoples in the world for a return to some ancient Atlantis-type utopian reality (seen the movie Avatar? That's not a new theme. It's an old theme from the pagan mysteries). They claim our Lord Jesus was only one of several avatars, others being Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, Muhammed, etc., basically the founders of the world's major religions of history.
They claim that is possible with the idea of a Christ-Spirit, or Christ-Consciousness, like a force in the universe that anyone may atone to, and become an "adept" master (sound like oriental philosophy? It's included in their system). Per that, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammed, Confuscious, Krisha, and even our Lord Jesus simply atoned to that Christ-Consciousness in the sky, and became highly spiritual adept masters.
This is why they cannot admit that our Lord Jesus Christ is God, like Isaiah 9:6 does declare Jesus as The Father also. If they admitted Jesus is God The Saviour, then where would that leave Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammed, etc.? It would reduce the effect of those religions that treat them as holy prophets, and elevate our Lord Jesus above them if it was admitted that Jesus was more than just a prophet, and more than human.
This is why one of their 'tells' is the false belief that ALL religious paths lead to the same God and same Salvation. That's why they hate when we true Christians declare that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY of Salvation to GOD The Father. Christ Jesus did die on the cross as witnessed by His Apostles and disciples, and The Father raised Him from the dead as also witnessed by Christ's Apostles and disciples. None other in any other religion has done that. Our Heavenly Father made certain Jesus The Christ's Blood shed upon the cross would be the only True Mark of His Promised Salvation. Any other way will not measure up.
Just think, per the mystery schools of initiation, YOU can become your OWN Christ, simply by tuning into the force of Christ-Consciousness like the man Jesus did! You don't really need Jesus per their view. You can become your OWN Jesus, and even do your OWN Salvation!
Every time someone tries to claim our Lord Jesus Christ was only a human man, and not God The Son, Emmanuel (God with us) as written, then that old false pagan mystery school belief comes to mind.
Mysteryman
Member
veteran said:
Hi
There is no such phrase - "God the Son" in the scriptures !
Mysteryman
Member
jasoncran said:
Hi Jason :
That is correct, none of the above are in the bible. So all you need to do now, is live with this truth.
1. The Bible - is a Translation
2.The Rapture is a man made word
3. The phrase - God the Son, is a man made phrase
Live with this truth ! Accept this truth !
francisdesales
Member
Mysteryman said:
If A=C
and B=C
Then A=B
Jesus is God, the Father's Son. Derived from the Bible Revelation. Very simple.
jasoncran
Member
ah you accept the concept of the pre-trib rapture, found from various verses.
raptos latin/english rapture.
raptos means to grab with force, to arrest, to pull away forcefully
the vulgate uses the word raptos where the verse speaking of that which is taken away when the man of sin allowed to come.
if the son of god, has the father's nature and has his divinity, and has his glory, and other things, that mean his essence is the same.
how could jesus only being an angel say that for if you have seen me you have seen the father.
raptos latin/english rapture.
raptos means to grab with force, to arrest, to pull away forcefully
the vulgate uses the word raptos where the verse speaking of that which is taken away when the man of sin allowed to come.
if the son of god, has the father's nature and has his divinity, and has his glory, and other things, that mean his essence is the same.
how could jesus only being an angel say that for if you have seen me you have seen the father.
Mysteryman
Member
jasoncran said:
Hi Jason :
The words - "caught up together" does not mean - "by force". We who are expecting the Lord to be "gathered" > II Thess 2:1 - "gathering together unto him", is an expectation we as christians look for.
This is a part of the "Hope"
Everything within the scriptures, that the Son of God has, has been given unto him by his Father. He is nothing of himself, unless the Father gave it to him. All the scriptures tell us this to be true.
We as christians also partake of the Father's divine nature - II Peter 1:3 & 4 , because we as christians have the promise seed of - Christ in us, the hope of glory.