Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

A Change Of The Law? Another Priesthood?

wavy

Member
A Change Of The Law (Hebrews 7:12)


This is a popular passage that is brought up whenever the observance of the torah is in discussion. Many people look at the torah as some lengthy document that is all held together in a chain of letters, and if is not completed to each and every letter by any singular man or woman, then it collapses.

Something like, "well if you keep the sabbath, why don't you make sacrifices? it's all in the law isn't it? why don't you take a lamb to the priest to atone for your sin? why don't you stone people? because if you disobey one you disobey all of it, right?" is an argument I personally encounter all of the time.

Now, it's logical to assume that if the order of Aaron and the Levites that were given to them (Numbers 3:5-9) have been set aside in favor of Yahshua and his priesthood, which is after the order of Melech-Tzadik (“Melchisedecâ€Â, who was actually priest long before Aaron and the Levites were), that this affects the manner in which we keep all the rest of torah. It's logical to assume that a new covenant means all the "old laws" or what are usually called the "ceremonial laws" are done away but the "moral laws" remain because of the writing on the heart.

I try not to knock people for thinking that. I really believe it is not their fault, but that of their teachers and of traditional forms of Christianity. But here is why I believe this is not good enough to prove that if we look at the whole of scripture according to the sum of the Word (Psalm 119:160). Within the torah are a few things that when compared with the revelation of the NT, legitimately disprove that impression. Please keep an open mind.

Firstly, we want to define what torah is. Torah is Genesis-Revelation. All of it is Yahweh's Word (and therefore abides forever; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:89; 1 Peter 1:23-25).

The torah we are focusing on mainly is the Torah of Moshe (Moses), which is the first 5 books of our bibles, or the Pentateuch.

Secondly, it must be established that not every single commandment in torah applies to every single person, as most of us [should] know.

Thirdly, I want to make it clear that the torah is not a document from Sinai that must be kept to the letter perfectly by every single individual or otherwise, you need to just "believe" in Messiah.

A lot of people ask as an argument, "well, do you keep the law perfectly?" And if your answer is "no", they resume to say that you shouldn't even try to keep it then, and you should just accept Yahweh's grace and stop doing "your own works".

What I want to say is that "keep it perfectly or don't keep it at all" is never stated by Yahweh anywhere in the bible. Instead, what he says is:

Leviticus 18:5
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am יהוה.

And what this means is, is that if you claim to live by torah, you'll live your life in full devotion to torah. Many might then recall or bring this verse:

Deuteronomy 27:26
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

But this does not mean you must keep every letter of the torah throughout your lifetime perfectly or be cursed. This is talking about as a lifestyle. Turning aside from the way of torah as a whole (as goes for James 2:10 also). This is not talking about an incidental breaking of a single commandment, which we can repent from.

If this is the case, none of you should be sinners if you claim to be a believer. Why? John says in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 5:18 that whoever is in Messiah and born of Yahweh “sins notâ€Â. Every single last one of us that has a brain and isn't an extremely arrogant and ignorant fool would say that we are not perfect, and that sometimes we stumble in our walk; even John here. But what John is really talking about here is sinning as a lifestyle.

Yet the same argument pops up: "you must keep the law perfectly or be damned and forced to accept christ as the 'fulfillment' of the law and forget all the 'ceremonial regulations' and just go with the 'morals' of the law".

This, in essence, is what I hear all the time. The problem is, however, this is not in scripture! I’ve heard this so much, I’ve come up with my own title for it: the "You Fail Doctrineâ€Â. Torah was not given to say "you are a failure so give up on keeping me and just accept grace". If this is the case, Yahweh had no right all those centuries for kicking Israel's butt up and down the earth for breaking it (as a lifestyle) if he knew it was impossible to keep it (as a lifestyle). Sadly, this is exactly what many people are suggesting that we should believe (although maybe not intentionally, and this is rebuked in Deuteronomy 30:14).

So let’s take a look at Hebrews.

Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

But what specifically, in context, was changed/shifted? The whole torah? Many use this passage to say this, but that is not in the context (there is also no definite article “the†in the Greek, so it reads “change of lawâ€Â, not specifically the law). The continual topic is the priesthood and how Messiah has taken over the priestly office in exchange for Aaron and the Levites. Hebrews 7:12 has not switched the context to the whole torah, but only in context of how Messiah is scripturally our priest without actually violating torah.

I have my own opinion as to what the “change of law†is in context, but I want to mention that there are two other good explanations of what this “change of law†is that I know of. The preceding verses talk about tithing in Hebrews 7:2-10. The “change of law†could possibly and logically be tithing (which was given according to torah to the Levites). So the priesthood, being shifted, requires a “change of law†concerning the tithes.

The second explanation is that it is speaking of the sacrificial system of atonement. The priesthood changed from the hands of sinful, earthly men to Yahshua in heaven, and so therefore, the sacrifices and system of atonement has been shifted to him also in his one-time sacrifice and his intercession for us before the Father in the heavenly Tabernacle. This is also logical in context.

I believe it is referring to the act of shifting/changing the priesthood within two tribes. It was told to Aaron (who was a Levite) and the tribe of the Levites given to him that the priesthood was theirs to perform. But how do we change it to Messiah after the order of Melech-Tzadik who came out of Yahudah (Judah)? This is the “change of law†that occurs based on the continual flow of the very next verses:

Hebrews 7:13
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

It becomes perfectly clear what the “change of law†(not all torot/laws or specifically the torah) is. He's making an apologetic as to how Messiah Yahshua can be Cohen HaGadol (High Priest) although he is not a descendant of Levi or one of the sons of Aaron. He goes on to explain that Yahshua is not appointed as priest after a “pertaining to the flesh†(carnal) commandment/precept (Hebrews 7:16 - since the sons of Aaron and the Levites were flesh and passed the priesthood down through the flesh), but is made High Priest because of the power of an endless life. What is this endless life?

In context, it is that of Melech-Tzadik. Because he is not mentioned in a genealogy, and it is never recorded when he was born or when he died, this is a hint that this priesthood remains forever (Hebrews 7:3). This is Yahshua’s eternal priesthood (Psalm 110:4), because like Melech-Tzadik, he lives forever.

Hebrews 7:18 says there is a disannulling, or a setting aside of the former precept that made Aaron and his sons and the Levites priests because of this.

Continuing:

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto יהוה.

Torah alone (in context, the priestly ministry of the sons of Levi) cannot put a new heart in you by making atonement for you by the blood of animals, like Yahshua could by his blood and the outpouring of the Spirit. Paul testifies in Hebrews 10:1 that the torah (concerning specifically the Yom Kippur sacrifices) cannot make anyone perfect (that is, change their heart by the means of that atonement). He states in Hebrews 10:3-4 that in those sacrifices was merely a reminder of sins for the people (Israel) because they could not take away sin (meaning, the sinning tendencies of the inner person, not that it didn't atone for sins).

And this is what he states here in Hebrews 7:19. We looked for a better hope (a new covenant that changed our consciences and renewed our spirits through Messiah).

Does this just randomly change Yahweh's torot? Or is their justification for this in torah? The weakness/unprofitableness of the Levitical priesthood (because of their nature - Hebrews 7:18,28) is what caused the need for this change/shifting of the priesthood from Levi to Yahudah and from men to the immortal Mashiach.

Leviticus 21:16-23 and Leviticus 22:2-9 list a number of ineligibilities for those ordained in the priestly office, the main one being “blemishesâ€Â.

The author of Hebrews clearly gave reference to these "blemishes" as the part of their disqualification and a need for something new (Yahshua's Priesthood, although, in torah, it is actually before the Levitical priesthood – Genesis 14:18).

Continuing from the previous Hebrews 7 references:

Hebrews 7:20
And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21
For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, “יהוה sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedecâ€Â

Because of this declaration with an oath, an oath Yahweh said he would not turn from, Yahshua's priesthood continues forever. The Levites, however, were ordained first without an oath (Exodus 32:29) when they had joined Yahweh's side after they killed all the idolatrous children that were foolishly worshipping the golden calf. Aaron and his sons were ordained, but they had terms and conditions. They still had no oath to swear them in continually and unchangeably. They had blemishes (though, according to scripture still, they will be restored – Isaiah 66:21; Jeremiah 33:18-22; Malachi 3:3; Ezekiel 40:46 and many more) But Messiah Yahshua was “without spot†and “without blemish†and “without sin†(1 Peter 1:19; Hebrews 4:15).

This is why the priesthood was shifted to Yahshua according to a new covenant. No other laws are mentioned to be "shifted" or "changed". If we are honest, only the ones concerning the priesthood were, and it is perfectly acceptable according to torah and the sum of Yahweh’s Word. This is how the torah was a shadow. Not every aspect of every commandment (otherwise "love YHWH with all your heart..." would be changed too), but the things concerning the priesthood. Other commandments in torah, like keeping the Sabbath, the moadim/appointed times, are shadows of things to come, not shadows of Yahshua, as many people mistakenly think Colossians 2:16-17 is saying (another study).

The new covenant is actually based upon torah (Hebrews 8:6). In the KJV, and perhaps most translations, it says “establishedâ€Â. However, the word for “established†is nenomotetetaī. This is how the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance defines the word:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance said:
G3549

νομοθετέω

nomotheteō

nom-oth-et-eh'-o

From G3550; to legislate, that is, (passively) to have (the Mosaic) enactments injoined, be sanctioned (by them): - establish, receive the law.

This is actually the same word used in Hebrews 7:11, where it says under the Levitical priesthood, the people “received the law†(the word for these three words being nenomotetetaī). The new covenant is sanctioned by the torah. Do away with the torah and you have no new covenant.

So what about the idea that if the priesthood has been changed, then that means everything else has been changed in this manner? Isn't the torah supposed to be a collective that if one thing is changed, then the whole thing falls apart?

No, not at all. In fact, I can give you an example within the torah where Yahweh did change/shifted something, and yet it never effected the rest of what Yahweh commanded. In Exodus 13:1-2, Yahweh makes it clear that he wants all the firstborn of the children of Israel, humankind and animal, to be given to him for service (not sacrifice for humans).

Yet later, first mentioned in Numbers 3:41, Yahweh reveals that he wanted the Levites and their cattle “instead of†all the firstborn of the children of Israel and their cattle.

So it is clear Yahweh can change one aspect of torah to accommodate something better without changing all the rest, yet keep within the boundaries of his own torah. Therefore comments and arguments such as "well, you don't make sacrifices or go to the priest, and so you are breaking the law; quit trying to keep it because you will fail and just accept grace" (more or less) are irrelevant. Not to mention that the temple was destroyed once before 70 C.E. This never voided any commandments concerning the priesthood. It was also rebuilt (and as is proven above, it will be restored again in some fashion or another).

Also, we see Yahweh make changes (or rather, additions) as torah progresses. He built a temple through Solomon (after denying David's request to undertake the task, if you'll remember) instead of abiding in the tabernacle. This never did away with or changed the method of keeping any other torot/laws.

Why don’t we stone people? See Exodus 21:22 (divinely appointed judges deal out restitution), Leviticus 20:2 (people of the land stone with stones), Numbers 25:5 (judges charged to execute death penalty), Deuteronomy 1:16 (judges charged to judge righteously between the people of the nation), Deuteronomy 16:18 (judges and officers set up to judge the people), and Deuteronomy 19:17-18 (judges and priests given the job of hearing witnesses and dealing out judgment).

Obeying to the letter, void of outward mistakes, is not the issue with Yahweh. What is the issue is doing his Word, and doing it with the right type of heart. Are you willing? That is the issue. So the argument that not being perfect at all times voids the purpose and establishment of torah as our duty is a vain one. It is established as a way of life and not a means of perfection. Our only perfection comes from the righteousness of Yahweh, who is the Messiah Yahshua.

Peace and Love in Messiah
 
I got as far as here....

"It was given to instruct us concerning our sin, but never to say "you fail, just accept grace". If this is the case, Yahweh had no right all those centuries for kicking Israel's butt up and down the world for breaking it if he knew it was impossible for us to keep it (as a lifestyle)."

... and stopped.

Soon as you here the ".... then God had no right" argument you know what is being spoken is straight out of the natural man.


Wavy,..... God has every right.

In fact, "right" is just God,.... and by extension, "right" is whatever He does.


Get out of the realm of right and wrong and get into the realm of life.

In love,
cj
 
cj said:
I got as far as here....

"It was given to instruct us concerning our sin, but never to say "you fail, just accept grace". If this is the case, Yahweh had no right all those centuries for kicking Israel's butt up and down the world for breaking it if he knew it was impossible for us to keep it (as a lifestyle)."

... and stopped.

Soon as you here the ".... then God had no right" argument you know what is being spoken is straight out of the natural man.


Wavy,..... God has every right.

In fact, "right" is just God,.... and by extension, "right" is whatever He does.


Get out of the realm of right and wrong and get into the realm of life.

In love,
cj

That is exactly how I see it. God can do whatever, whenever, to whomever, that he sees fit. Thank God almighty for his mystery the Church, the Body of Jesus Christ. :D
 
Well, if you two believe that, then that's just the way it is. I can't stop that. But I, personally, think that is unscriptural and just shows how far we must go to prove how much we want to disobey Yahweh. Yahweh never said it was impossible to do it. He said the very opposite.

I don't see the "church" thing to be supported by scripture at all either. Again, Solo, that is something we must assume to uphold the dogma we've heard for centuries although there is not much scriptural backing for that.

And Vic, I don't think it's long enough either. :sad
 
wavy said:
I don't see the "church" thing to be supported by scripture at all either. Again, Solo, that is something we must assume to uphold the dogma we've heard for centuries although there is not much scriptural backing for that.

wavy,
Don't be afraid to unlearn the dogma that goes against the scriptures. Study the scriptures with the Holy Spirit's interpretation so that He can set you free from all error. The mystery has been revealed "to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Ephesians 3:1-12

εκκλησία = church
From the root words εκ = out of AND καλεσ = call translated called out ones, or assembly of called.

The word εκκλησία is used 118 times in the New Testament, 115 translated church and 3 times translated assembly in the KJV.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but * * if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:11
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Acts 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 8:1
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling * men and women committed them to prison.

Acts 11:22
Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 12:1
Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.

Acts 12:5
Peter * * therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

Acts 13:1
Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts 14:27
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Acts 15:3
And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Acts 15:4
And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Acts 15:22
Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Acts 18:22
And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch.

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

Acts 19:39
But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.

Acts 19:41
And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

Acts 20:17
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 16:1
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 16:23
Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

Romans 16:27
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen *. [Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.]

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1 Corinthians 11:18
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Corinthians 11:22
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad ?

1 Corinthians 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1 Corinthians 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

1 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Ephesians 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Philippians 3:6
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law *, blameless.

Philippians 4:15
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Colossians 4:15
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Colossians 4:16
And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye * likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 3:5
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1 Timothy 5:16
If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

2 Timothy 4:22
The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. [The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second * * time.]

Titus 3:15
All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen. [It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.]

Philemon 1:2
And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews 2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

3 John 1:6
Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:

3 John 1:9
I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

3 John 1:10
Wherefore *, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith *, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Revelation 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:12
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Revelation 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


There is plenty of scripture speaking of the called out ones who assemble in the body of Jesus Christ, but I do not see any where that speaks of messianic nazarenes. Why is that?

Solo
 
Solo said:
wavy,
Don't be afraid to unlearn the dogma that goes against the scriptures. Study the scriptures with the Holy Spirit's interpretation so that He can set you free from all error. The mystery has been revealed "to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This doesn't say the mystery is the "church". The mystery is the true ministry of Paul as it ties into the maleh ha-goyim and two-house fulfillment.

The congregation is clearly Israel.

There is plenty of scripture speaking of the called out ones who assemble in the body of Jesus Christ, but I do not see any where that speaks of messianic nazarenes. Why is that?

Are you mocking me? Anyway, the assembly is Israel, as is explicitly proven in the elect thread. No one offered up a good refutation to that.

However, this is what the early believers were called historically (Nazarenes). I just call myself a Messianic (I don't mind Christian, however). Anyhow, I see no scripture that references anything to the "Christian Separate Entity Church".

I only see Israel gathered under One Head as the body of the Head. The New Testament does not have to explicitly outline what the early assembly was called. That's not the point. The point is that they are an assembly and they are a specific assembly, one witnessed by the Ketuvim/Scriptures.

This is how we test all truth. Not with the Greek mindset of unlearned, biased teaching today.

I also think you have largely taken those scriptures out of complete context. You see "assembly" and assume it is the separate entity assembly of the "christian church". But that is what you have already been taught. It's not in the scripture. Once again, this is the same circular reasoning JM used.
 
Also, please do not change the subject of this thread into trying to mock me about what I call myself. Thanx.
 
wavy said:
Solo said:
wavy,
Don't be afraid to unlearn the dogma that goes against the scriptures. Study the scriptures with the Holy Spirit's interpretation so that He can set you free from all error. The mystery has been revealed "to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This doesn't say the mystery is the "church". The mystery is the true ministry of Paul as it ties into the maleh ha-goyim and two-house fulfillment.

The congregation is so clearly Israel.


There is plenty of scripture speaking of the called out ones who assemble in the body of Jesus Christ, but I do not see any where that speaks of messianic nazarenes. Why is that?

Are you mocking me? Anyway, the assembly is Israel, as is explicitly proven in the elect thread. No one offered up a good refutation to that.

However, this is what the early believers were called historically (Nazarenes). I just call myself a Messianic. Anyhow, I see no scripture that references anything to the "Christian Separate Entity Church".

I only see Israel gathered under One Head as the body of the Head. The New Testament does not have to explicitly outline what the early assembly was called. That's not the point. The point is that they are an assembly and they are a specific assembly, one witnessed by the Ketuvim/Scriptures.

This is how we test all truth. Not with the Greek mindset of unlearned, biased teaching today.

I also think you have largely taken those scriptures out of complete context. You see "assembly" and assume it is the separate entity assembly of the "christian church". But that is what you have already been taught. It's not in the scripture. Once again, this is the same circular reasoning JM used.

Your answer speaks volumes. Thank you.
 
wavy said:
Also, please do not change the subject of this thread into trying to mock me about what I call myself. Thanx.
wavy,
I am not mocking you so do not spread false witness about me. I am trying to teach you the value of the church to those powers and principalities that God created all of mankind for. He showed that man was unable to govern himself with God, govern himself without God, govern himself with a king, govern himself without a king, govern himself with the Law of God, govern himself with the grace of God, and until the redemption of man through God's redemption, will not be able to govern himself apart from Jesus Christ, God himself. Of course some are on a power trip and like to exacerbate the truth with guess work apart from the interpretation of the Holy Spirit. That my friend is a mistake.

Thanks,
Solo
 
Still, I didn't want the subject to change.

And I appreciate that you are trying to illuminate "truth" to me, but I don't find it to bear record with the scriptures right off the bat. You assume already that I am wrong without true debate and testing and comparing of the scriptures. Anything I say is automatically dismissed by you because you can use the excuse of the "Holy Spirit's interpretation".

I don't play that game. Millions of different people with thousands of different doctrines play that game. So, once again, thanx, but no thanx.

Please, keep the thread on topic.
 
wavy said:
This doesn't say the mystery is the "church". The mystery is the true ministry of Paul as it ties into the maleh ha-goyim and two-house fulfillment.

The congregation is so clearly Israel. Anyway, the assembly is Israel, as is explicitly proven in the elect thread. No one offered up a good refutation to that.

And this is where you become veiled.

There are two aspects to God's relationship/ministry to men,..... earthly and heavenly.

Thus there are two aspects to His called-out people, earthly and heavenly.

There is the earthly Israel and there is the spiritual Israel.

In love,
cj
 
wavy said:
Millions of different people with thousands of different doctrines play that game.

And you are just one of the bunch, as we all are.

So then what?

Do you know what LCM means in math?


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
And this is where you become veiled.

Well, that's your opinion.

Thus there are two aspects to His called-out people, earthly and heavenly.

There is the earthly Israel and there is the spiritual Israel.

I disagree wholeheartedly:

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Deuteronomy 22:9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
Deuteronomy 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.
Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

Please read the parable of the field with the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:24-30.

Yahweh doesn't have a mixture of two peoples. That would violate his own law. What does he do with those who try to sneak into the kingdom as the "new Israel" or supplanters of YHWH's people?

They are gathered up and burnt.
 
What God makes clean through his Son Jesus Christ, the savior of many nations, the same is clean forever. Israelites and non-Israelites become the children of God as He promised to Abraham. Many nations from all tongues will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Any other interpretation is false, and the Judaizers are still present today.

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. 7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; 8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends. 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? 30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. 33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:1-48



After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9


"Epiphanius wrote about a group of Jewish Christians called the Nazoraeans who apparently originated in Perea among Christians who left Jerusalem prior to A.D. 70 (Klijn, p. 44). He said little about them except that in addition to holding orthodox beliefs about Jesus, they also believed in keeping the Mosaic Law. In addition, unlike the Ebionites, the Nazoraeans accepted Paul’s letters and the Gentile Church."

http://homepage.mac.com/johnalex1/cours ... aizer.html

When Peter was rebuked by Paul in Antioch it is clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ was given not only to the Jews, but also to the non-Jews. Non-Jews were not incorporated in with the Jews, but were added as separate to the Kingdom of God through the work of Jesus Christ. Peter's error was that he did not walk uprightly according to the truth of the gospel by compelling the "Gentiles" to live as the Jews. Paul sets the record straight in his letter to the Galatians.

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:11-21

Paul recognizes that his old Jewish religion which prompted his persecution of the Church of God is passed, and his separation from his mother's womb when it pleased God to call him by His grace; whereby Jesus is revealed in him that he might preach Jesus among the non-Jewish nations.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up F2 to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 24 And they glorified God in me. Galatians 1:13-23

Paul continues in his letter to the Galatians that they not be under the bondage of the Law. He warns the Galatians that the bondage of the Law does not profit one as an heir as does the sonship of the promise of God through Jesus Christ.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Galatians 4:21-31
 
Solo said:
Many nations from all tongues will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Any other interpretation is false, and the Judaizers are still present today.

I agree, and this nation is considered Israel, not a nation of "Jews". And really, you don't have to lay down a whole scripture and waste space and make people scroll down even longer. You could just give a reference at the least. This is too much.

I disagree with the majority of what you said and could argue against it, easily. But, I thought it would be better, once again, to keep the thread on topic.
 
wavy said:
And really, you don't have to lay down a whole scripture and waste space and make people scroll down even longer. You could just give a reference at the least. This is too much.
:o :o :o Did someone steal wavy's memory?
 
No, the difference is between many references with maybe a few, say 1-7 verses posted for a few scriptures vs. 3-4 references with nearly the whole chapters posted.
 
wavy said:
Solo said:
Many nations from all tongues will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Any other interpretation is false, and the Judaizers are still present today.

I agree, and this nation is considered Israel, not a nation of "Jews". And really, you don't have to lay down a whole scripture and waste space and make people scroll down even longer. You could just give a reference at the least. This is too much.

I disagree with the majority of what you said and could argue against it, easily. But, I thought it would be better, once again, to keep the thread on topic.
Satan doesn't like the Word of God. What is your problem with it?

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Galatians 4:21-31
 
Back
Top