A Puzzler for unbelievers

  • Thread starter Thread starter tzalam2
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Which shows that the most anyone can be, logically, is agnostic.
 
Geepers...never heard that one before.

You would have to find a strong atheist to make that claim. I believe all the atheists here are "weak" atheists.

That means we do not attempt to prove god doesn't exist. I do not believe that God doesn't exist. Rather I have no belief that God exists.

See the difference?

By analogy, I would never choose to say that there is no woman in Prague who is 6'10" and goes by the name of Agnes. I cannot make that claim, nor can I prove that she doesn't exist. You cannot prove a negative

Instead, I simply have no belief that she exists.

I also have no belief that dinosaurs were purple, that leprachauns exist, that unicorns once walked the earth or that my cat can understand spanish. However, I cannot prove any of these things as not true. But I still choose not to believe them.

You cannot prove them false either, but you choose not to believe them as well.
 
I response to Tobael's point about agnosticism.

An agnostic would simply say it is impossible to ever ascertain whether or not Agnes in Praque exists, so there is no point in taking a position.

Whereas I choose not to believe in Agnes, the agnostic simply states there is no point in taking either a positive or a negative belief position.

Both options are logical.
 
tzalam2 said:
Prove to me that God DOESN'T exist.

You can't.

What's "puzzling" is why you would challenge anyone to disprove what can't be proven in the first place. It cannot be proven that God exists or doesn't exist. The best you can do is mount a philosophical argument for the existence of God. There are also philosophical arguments against the existence of God. But even if one offers a compelling argument for God, that's only the first step in proving that this God is the God of the bible. Even proving the existence of a God (which can't be done in the first place) would be of no consequence if this God were so far beyond us that He/It had no desire or reason to relate to us. That would certainly be a philosophical possibility.

The real question is - if God exists, is He the "BibleGod"? (or the God that any other particular religion describes) Otherwise, proving the existence of God, in general, would still mean nothing to us.
 
INteresting responses.
I have no desire to get into a pi###ng match with any of you.
I am interested in discovering why each of you feels the way you
do, without becoming hostile.

I'll think about your replies, and if I can come up with anything remotely intelligent, I"ll respond.

I will say that I KNOW GOD exists, because of His Holy Spirit within me, and how I have been blessed with an ability to understand Holy Scripture, to a degree, and I KNOW the Word of God is alive, and has life.
That's all I can say now, it's difficult to describe.
I'm not on this earth to dismantle anyone's beliefs, and I hope each of you can at least show a modicum of respect for my lifestyle and worship of the God Who is the beginning and the end of everything, even time.
May God open your eyes, and give you ears to hear His Word.
God bless each of you, and thank you for your honest, well mannered,
and thoughtful responses.
 
I totally disagree with anyone that thinks or says that there is NO proof of God's existence. It may not be the proof that one personally needs to accept the nature and existence of God, but proof there is and tons of it.

Newton, the mathematician that set the ground-work for the understanding of gravity and discovered the means with which we understand the nature of light waves, spent the rest of his life studying the Bible and in particular Revelation. He pointed out to us the undenyable fact that there HAD to be creation, therefore a creator. He explained that the EXACT nature of everything necessary to sustain life on this planet COULD NOT possibly be an accident or fluke of nature. Way too many variables to come together randomly for any man of intellect to postulate their possibility.

Now, this may not prove anything to one that insist upon denying simply for the sake of their own importance and vanity, but here is a very intellectual, (genius you might say), man of science that was led to only one conclusion from his understanding of this world.

Could anyone really believe that all we've dicovered we're simply random happenings with absolutely no influence by a Creator? Could there be anyone that doesn't understand that genetics and mathematics were NOT created by man, but discovered? And in the perfection of their functionality, could anyone TRULY believe that these things JUST HAPPENED? That life simply BEGAN by random chance. Funny, there are those that believe and teach this very thing, but with all our knowledge and wisdom concerning the very basic beginnings of life, we still can't create it. Funny how many believe that life was just an accidental event that they can describe in perfect detail, but five billion years later they still can't reproduce this accidental event.

And how is it that humans are the only ones capable of denying God? How is it that all the rest of life on this planet has no choice in denying or accepting God? Evolution? Come on, if this were true then why did no other creature evolve with anything close to the freedom of choice that man possesses? No way to record their histories? And if it's simply a matter of evolution, do any of those people believe that ANY other life form on this planet will eventually evolve to that point, (written lanuage)?

And how is it that long, long before man had any knowledge of the nature of molecular science that the Word of God told us that man was created from the elements that already existed upon this planet? This is obvious to us now, but how long did it take us to prove and realize this as fact? Yet Moses wrote this over five thousand years ago. Lucky guess I suppose.

There will always be those that insist upon denial for the simple sake of argument and rebelion. And as the Bible states, there will always be those that will chose to believe that they are more important to themselves than anything else. These are simply people that refuse to see the truth. It's not that existence of God can or cannot be proven, it's more a matter of acceptance of that proof. And there is certainly more proof that God DOES exist than there is that He doesn't. But, just like there were those that chose to believe in 'Big Foot', there will always be people that make up what they want to believe in regardless of the evidence.
 
Imagican said:
I totally disagree with anyone that thinks or says that there is NO proof of God's existence. It may not be the proof that one personally needs to accept the nature and existence of God, but proof there is and tons of it.

Newton, the mathematician that set the ground-work for the understanding of gravity and discovered the means with which we understand the nature of light waves, spent the rest of his life studying the Bible and in particular Revelation. He pointed out to us the undenyable fact that there HAD to be creation, therefore a creator. He explained that the EXACT nature of everything necessary to sustain life on this planet COULD NOT possibly be an accident or fluke of nature. Way too many variables to come together randomly for any man of intellect to postulate their possibility.

Now, this may not prove anything to one that insist upon denying simply for the sake of their own importance and vanity, but here is a very intellectual, (genius you might say), man of science that was led to only one conclusion from his understanding of this world.

Could anyone really believe that all we've dicovered we're simply random happenings with absolutely no influence by a Creator? Could there be anyone that doesn't understand that genetics and mathematics were NOT created by man, but discovered? And in the perfection of their functionality, could anyone TRULY believe that these things JUST HAPPENED? That life simply BEGAN by random chance. Funny, there are those that believe and teach this very thing, but with all our knowledge and wisdom concerning the very basic beginnings of life, we still can't create it. Funny how many believe that life was just an accidental event that they can describe in perfect detail, but five billion years later they still can't reproduce this accidental event.

And how is it that humans are the only ones capable of denying God? How is it that all the rest of life on this planet has no choice in denying or accepting God? Evolution? Come on, if this were true then why did no other creature evolve with anything close to the freedom of choice that man possesses? No way to record their histories? And if it's simply a matter of evolution, do any of those people believe that ANY other life form on this planet will eventually evolve to that point, (written lanuage)?

And how is it that long, long before man had any knowledge of the nature of molecular science that the Word of God told us that man was created from the elements that already existed upon this planet? This is obvious to us now, but how long did it take us to prove and realize this as fact? Yet Moses wrote this over five thousand years ago. Lucky guess I suppose.

There will always be those that insist upon denial for the simple sake of argument and rebelion. And as the Bible states, there will always be those that will chose to believe that they are more important to themselves than anything else. These are simply people that refuse to see the truth. It's not that existence of God can or cannot be proven, it's more a matter of acceptance of that proof. And there is certainly more proof that God DOES exist than there is that He doesn't. But, just like there were those that chose to believe in 'Big Foot', there will always be people that make up what they want to believe in regardless of the evidence.

For one thing, Newton lived a looong time ago, he couldnt have possibly have the resources(telescopes, big bang theories, evolution theories) to prove creation without a God. Its like saying the most intelligent caveman couldnt possibly explain why thunders ocurred, so he concluded it was God, guess we should all now thunders are created by God.

And, humans (with science and religion), have been around for a few milleniums, thats like a blink in the universe's life. Its true, WE DONT KNOW S H I T. We cant create life... yet.

Well ( i dont know much about evolution ) but i guess we evoluted (is that even a word?lol) faster. I dunno, evoltion is still in the beggining. But it sounds alot more rational than a super mighty being that created all life, have moral values, is perfect, can bend any physical law, is omnipotent,e tc.
 
I have no desire to get into a pi###ng match with any of you.
I am interested in discovering why each of you feels the way you
do, without becoming hostile.

I'll think about your replies, and if I can come up with anything remotely intelligent, I"ll respond.

Tzalam2, the problem isn't totally your question. It is a bad one, too broad to carry a conversation. The main problem is that you don't want a fight, but you were in a way the first one to come out swinging. Do you see a problem here? You were the one who basically called the athiests' stupid for not believing in God from a logical stand point, then baseing your beliefs upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Athiests don't believe because they do not have faith in God, rather they have faith in themselves, science or something else. It isn't a matter of logic, but rather a problem with misplaced faith.

If the point of this thread was to convince athiests that God exists, then you need to take a different avenue next time and realize that trying to embarass people or make them to be unintelligent is not the way to evangelize. It is a way to drive people farther from the faith that I hold dear. Love thy neighbor...ring a bell?
 
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