stovebolts
Member
Dean said:
I've heard this from most of the urist, but they never seem to dig into it. What does this mean from a UR perspective? Are these simply hollow words?
What exaclty would hell entail? (The helish part...)
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A UR's version of hellish consequences ?
- Thread starter stovebolts
- Start date
I've heard this from most of the urist, but they never seem to dig into it. What does this mean from a UR perspective? Are these simply hollow words?
What exaclty would hell entail? (The helish part...)
stovebolts
Member
Shana said:
Can a URist answer this simple question? What is hell like and why should somebody be fearful of hell if All will live in God's glory eventually?
D
Dean
Guest
The truth is, none of us knows exactly what hell is like. We know it's extreme, in the extreme. We are told of the reactions of those who are placed there, and they aren't happy.
Jeff, let me pose a brief "thought experiment":
Assume for the moment that we knew precisely what hell was like. We knew the temperature, we knew the humidity. We knew exactly and precisely the conditions and sensations of those placed in hell (or, for this question, the Lake of Fire).
If we had perfect and mutual knowledge of this experience of judgment, and it was fully as horrible as we both imagine and anticipate it to be, why would a duration of (earth time) 30 years, 300 years, 3,000 years etc., not be both sufficient as a disincentive, completely humbling and (perhaps) rehabilitating to those who experience it? Punishment does not have to be absolute to provide disincentive.
I'll be silly a bit to make the point:
Why do you avoid of Poison Ivy? It doesn't last forever.
Why do you not stick your fingers in electrical sockets? It's not enough to kill you and there are no lasting effects.
Why don't you commit any and every crime for which there isn't a death penalty? You'll get out eventually.
This just is not a coherent criticism of Reconciliation. Goodness Gracious. Hell, in the Christian construct, is literally the most horrible experience we can imagine, infinitely unpleasant. It therefore certainly need not be infinitely long to be fearful.
Jeff, let me pose a brief "thought experiment":
Assume for the moment that we knew precisely what hell was like. We knew the temperature, we knew the humidity. We knew exactly and precisely the conditions and sensations of those placed in hell (or, for this question, the Lake of Fire).
If we had perfect and mutual knowledge of this experience of judgment, and it was fully as horrible as we both imagine and anticipate it to be, why would a duration of (earth time) 30 years, 300 years, 3,000 years etc., not be both sufficient as a disincentive, completely humbling and (perhaps) rehabilitating to those who experience it? Punishment does not have to be absolute to provide disincentive.
I'll be silly a bit to make the point:
Why do you avoid of Poison Ivy? It doesn't last forever.
Why do you not stick your fingers in electrical sockets? It's not enough to kill you and there are no lasting effects.
Why don't you commit any and every crime for which there isn't a death penalty? You'll get out eventually.
This just is not a coherent criticism of Reconciliation. Goodness Gracious. Hell, in the Christian construct, is literally the most horrible experience we can imagine, infinitely unpleasant. It therefore certainly need not be infinitely long to be fearful.
stovebolts
Member
Dean,
Thank you for answering the question and for bringing some good points to the table. I was beginning to think that with all this talk of God's Love, that punishment wasn't an option.
I believe many places in the Bible describes what hell is, or will be like and I agree (as I hope most will) that Hell will not be a fun place for ANY duration. But here's the problem.
What about the person that brags that they want to go there? The maniac that commits all these vile acts against God and man? Would you suggest that as one incarserated in prison for his wrongs, he would eventually see his evil ways and repent?
What I'm getting at Dean is this. Would (in UR understanding) a sinner sent to hell, be tormented so badly that he would be forced through his envrionment (lack of God's presence) to repent and Confess Christ as his savior and therby be baptised with the Holy spirit for the forgivness of his sins to receive eternal life with God?
Yeah, I agree that it's not to smart to go around sticking you finger in an outlet, but then again, I wouldn't attempt to pull a semi with pierced nipples either. But hey, those are just my thoughts
:
Thank you for answering the question and for bringing some good points to the table. I was beginning to think that with all this talk of God's Love, that punishment wasn't an option.
I believe many places in the Bible describes what hell is, or will be like and I agree (as I hope most will) that Hell will not be a fun place for ANY duration. But here's the problem.
What about the person that brags that they want to go there? The maniac that commits all these vile acts against God and man? Would you suggest that as one incarserated in prison for his wrongs, he would eventually see his evil ways and repent?
What I'm getting at Dean is this. Would (in UR understanding) a sinner sent to hell, be tormented so badly that he would be forced through his envrionment (lack of God's presence) to repent and Confess Christ as his savior and therby be baptised with the Holy spirit for the forgivness of his sins to receive eternal life with God?
Yeah, I agree that it's not to smart to go around sticking you finger in an outlet, but then again, I wouldn't attempt to pull a semi with pierced nipples either. But hey, those are just my thoughts
:Why do you take a poll from people on this forum to find out how long hell lasts????? Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, is the only one who tells us that!!!! So why do some people look to people for the truth instead? For people who claim that Jesus is the truth, this is ludicrous! Do they think that mere human beings know better than Christ himself? How is this worshipping Christ over people? Do they not believe Jesus? If so, then why ask anyone else? God has revealed the truth to us through his only Son, the Christ, who has made it quite plain in very simple words. So there should be no question at all how long hell lasts!
C
cj
Guest
Anyone believe that fallen man is, in a sense, in hell even now.
The merciful thing is that we simply are not fully aware of it.
Why will living folk wish that they were dead?
Why will they hide themselves?
In man's vanity, and blindness, we think that hell is some physically painful experience, because our limited thinking is ignorant of the reality of the "garden" of God. The environment in which God walks with man.
But even worse, one day men who reject God will realize that not only was the reality of the "garden" available to them, but even more was..... God Himself was available.
See, Adam fell and was removed from the garden, but God's plan was always that Adam would receive Christ as life, by eating from the tree of life. This plan of God never changed, and when Adam fell, God simply provided again, the opportunity for Adam to choose to eat from the tree of life, by His preaching the gospel of salvation to Adam. And this time Adam believed and received.
Do you know when we will come to know what hell is?
When we come to fully know Who God is.
As it is at this time that the full scope of our willful decision, to receive or reject God, will also become fully realized by each of us.
There is a reason why the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.
In love,
cj
PS - Be very clear that in God's wisdom and righteousness, men need to die. As in.... "BAM, you're DEAD."
Death is only for the wicked in creation. I wonder how many of us truly realize just how wicked we are, and thus how deserving of death we are.
You know, the day will come when we will look back and regret much of what we did, thinking it was good.
Kinda brings a new light to the word that says, "Be still, and know I am God."
Really, being absolutely still is the only way for us to know God, but so often our hard-headedness refuses to belive this.
The merciful thing is that we simply are not fully aware of it.
Why will living folk wish that they were dead?
Why will they hide themselves?
In man's vanity, and blindness, we think that hell is some physically painful experience, because our limited thinking is ignorant of the reality of the "garden" of God. The environment in which God walks with man.
But even worse, one day men who reject God will realize that not only was the reality of the "garden" available to them, but even more was..... God Himself was available.
See, Adam fell and was removed from the garden, but God's plan was always that Adam would receive Christ as life, by eating from the tree of life. This plan of God never changed, and when Adam fell, God simply provided again, the opportunity for Adam to choose to eat from the tree of life, by His preaching the gospel of salvation to Adam. And this time Adam believed and received.
Do you know when we will come to know what hell is?
When we come to fully know Who God is.
As it is at this time that the full scope of our willful decision, to receive or reject God, will also become fully realized by each of us.
There is a reason why the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.
In love,
cj
PS - Be very clear that in God's wisdom and righteousness, men need to die. As in.... "BAM, you're DEAD."
Death is only for the wicked in creation. I wonder how many of us truly realize just how wicked we are, and thus how deserving of death we are.
You know, the day will come when we will look back and regret much of what we did, thinking it was good.
Kinda brings a new light to the word that says, "Be still, and know I am God."
Really, being absolutely still is the only way for us to know God, but so often our hard-headedness refuses to belive this.
D
Dean
Guest
Jeff -
Thanks for your insights into the proper way to pull a semi. Glad I already ate...
Clearly, the penal system on earth has had mixed results. We still use it, so not completely bad results, but mixed. I would assume that God's capacity to rehabilitate (if that were indeed His intent) is more robust.
We all will confess the Lordship of Christ, to the Glory of God. This much we know. Now, some say this may be "forced". Reading Romans 9, I'm not sure any of us had much choice about coming to Christ. He's God after all. And 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us:
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,†and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,†except by the Holy Spirit. "
Thanks for your insights into the proper way to pull a semi. Glad I already ate...
Clearly, the penal system on earth has had mixed results. We still use it, so not completely bad results, but mixed. I would assume that God's capacity to rehabilitate (if that were indeed His intent) is more robust.
We all will confess the Lordship of Christ, to the Glory of God. This much we know. Now, some say this may be "forced". Reading Romans 9, I'm not sure any of us had much choice about coming to Christ. He's God after all. And 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us:
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,†and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,†except by the Holy Spirit. "
stovebolts
Member
CJ,
As always, I enjoy your posts.
Heidi, Heidi, Heidi...
Luke 11:9-11 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
The poll is to simply put others beliefs to the basic test. As your aware, the URist believe that there is torment and there is a hell. However, they seem to think that after some duration of time, the torment ends and ALL are brought back to God's glory.
You see Heidi, the enemy isn't Dean and it isn't Shana, Charlotte, PhatDawg, Fine Linen or any other person who claims the UR doctrine or any other doctrine that you or I may dis-agree with. The enemy is the devil and the deceit and havok he spreads through his deception. This includes the hatred that can be planted in our bones with the justification of self rightousness.
Christ is for ALL mankind. Nothing I can do or say will bring anyone any closer to Christ. But when I allow Christ to speak through me (And it's in agreement with scripture), his will can be done. (Even when I'v mis-interpred scripture... :-? )
So, those of the UR doctrine, can you answer the simple questions at hand without posing a question in response? Surely an answer is in plain site somewhere in the Bible.
Peace.
As always, I enjoy your posts.
Heidi, Heidi, Heidi...
Luke 11:9-11 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
The poll is to simply put others beliefs to the basic test. As your aware, the URist believe that there is torment and there is a hell. However, they seem to think that after some duration of time, the torment ends and ALL are brought back to God's glory.
You see Heidi, the enemy isn't Dean and it isn't Shana, Charlotte, PhatDawg, Fine Linen or any other person who claims the UR doctrine or any other doctrine that you or I may dis-agree with. The enemy is the devil and the deceit and havok he spreads through his deception. This includes the hatred that can be planted in our bones with the justification of self rightousness.
Christ is for ALL mankind. Nothing I can do or say will bring anyone any closer to Christ. But when I allow Christ to speak through me (And it's in agreement with scripture), his will can be done. (Even when I'v mis-interpred scripture... :-? )
So, those of the UR doctrine, can you answer the simple questions at hand without posing a question in response? Surely an answer is in plain site somewhere in the Bible.
Peace.
stovebolts
Member
Dean said:
Thank you again for you integrity Dean. However, I have never been much into assumption. Would you mind elaborating on this assumption lest I assume that you are indicating that fire be the purifying tool that consumes sin?
[edit]
Also,
Can you elaborate on what you beleive dictates the duration of the "Helish" effects of Hell that the unsaved would go through before they were brought back to God?
Thanks.
StoveBolts said:
Of course the enemy is Satan, Steve! I've never disagreed with that one bit. My posts are for those whom God is drawing on this forum because those He is not drawing will never be able to discern what is true and what is false because they don't have the Holy Spirit in them. Paul said, "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from for they are foolisheness to him and he cannot understand then because they are spiritually discerned." Paul elaborates further on how we can recognize what is from God and what is from satan. "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, a gospel different than one one we have recieved, a spirit different from the one you have received, you put up with it easily enough...For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen masquerading ax apostles of christ. And no wonder, for satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. It is not surprising then, that his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." Notice that Paul says their end. That means no more chances. The URists definitely preach a Jesus and a gospel different than the one Paul preaches!
stovebolts
Member
I understand your vigor Heidi and I commend your relentlessness. However, we are told to plant seeds for that is all any of us can truly do. For it is Christ that draws man near and it is the Holy Spirit that allows us to discern truth from the lie.
We are members of the body of Christ and each of us have been called for a different duty to fullfill God's purpose, yet we can all plant seeds. Some seeds may fall on rocky soil and some may fall in the thorns. But alas, some will fall on fertile soil.
What is to discern my Sister is have the odasity to believe for one second that we have the authority to descern what is fertile and what is rocky and what is thorny, for under the rocks, and under the thorns, there just may be some very fertile ground being hidden by all the disctractions. For if we were to have the authority to save ourselves, certainly we would have the authority to condemn each other.
One of the fruits of the spirit are patience AKA Long Suffering. Perhaps a faucet of patience is allowing God's seed to germinate for we are all wicked people and get tangled in our own thorns that grow so abuntlanly in the rocks of our vanity.
As far as the URist preaching a different Jesus, I'd say that some of them preach a different Jesus and all of them preach a radically different hell. Ask any ET what hell is or what it's duration is, and you will be given an answer in seconds. Ask the same question to sombody that follows the UR doctrine, and you get silence...or questions upon questions. Sometimes, there is something to be said, through not saying anything. And those who seek truth, are able to see through the clarity of the silence.
Peace
We are members of the body of Christ and each of us have been called for a different duty to fullfill God's purpose, yet we can all plant seeds. Some seeds may fall on rocky soil and some may fall in the thorns. But alas, some will fall on fertile soil.
What is to discern my Sister is have the odasity to believe for one second that we have the authority to descern what is fertile and what is rocky and what is thorny, for under the rocks, and under the thorns, there just may be some very fertile ground being hidden by all the disctractions. For if we were to have the authority to save ourselves, certainly we would have the authority to condemn each other.
One of the fruits of the spirit are patience AKA Long Suffering. Perhaps a faucet of patience is allowing God's seed to germinate for we are all wicked people and get tangled in our own thorns that grow so abuntlanly in the rocks of our vanity.
As far as the URist preaching a different Jesus, I'd say that some of them preach a different Jesus and all of them preach a radically different hell. Ask any ET what hell is or what it's duration is, and you will be given an answer in seconds. Ask the same question to sombody that follows the UR doctrine, and you get silence...or questions upon questions. Sometimes, there is something to be said, through not saying anything. And those who seek truth, are able to see through the clarity of the silence.
Peace
D
Dean
Guest
Steve's too nice a guy to say it, but his name is Jeff.
StoveBolts said:
Oh, I agree with you, Steve. But I know several people who have been converted over the internet. There have been many times where I've thought about wiping the dust off my feet, and I still might just do that. But as long as I'm led here, I will continue in case there's even one soul among the UR's that God is drawing. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%! Paul spent countless hours witnessing to the Greeks until he was led away from them. I will do the same with the UR's.
stovebolts
Member
Keep fighting the good fight Heidi as agian, I commend your vigor. It takes all sorts to make up the complete body of Christ and you could no easily wipe the dust from your feet as could I.
Exodus 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace.
Psalm 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all you that hope in the LORD.
As far as the UR belief, I am not surprised that none of them can answer the above questions through direct scripture. Could it simply be that the UR doctrine attracts those who are so appauled by the thought of a rightous God, that they would lessen the consequences of Sin? I've heard many URist state that they believe in Hell, but none of them seem to know (or are willing to share) exactly how one is purified and reconcilled to God in the afterlife. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to a thread months ago concerning the Lake of Fire...
Again, their silence shouts the truth for those who seek and only God can move hearts closer to the light.
Deuteronomy 10:12-20 And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command you this day for your good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S your God, the earth also, with all that is in it. Only the LORD had a delight in your fathers to love them, and he chose their descendants after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, mighty, and awesome, who regards not persons, nor takes reward: He executes justice for the fatherless and widow, and loves the stranger, in giving him food and clothing. Love you therefore the stranger: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the LORD your God; him shall you serve, and to him shall you cleave, and swear by his name.
Exodus 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace.
Psalm 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all you that hope in the LORD.
As far as the UR belief, I am not surprised that none of them can answer the above questions through direct scripture. Could it simply be that the UR doctrine attracts those who are so appauled by the thought of a rightous God, that they would lessen the consequences of Sin? I've heard many URist state that they believe in Hell, but none of them seem to know (or are willing to share) exactly how one is purified and reconcilled to God in the afterlife. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to a thread months ago concerning the Lake of Fire...
Again, their silence shouts the truth for those who seek and only God can move hearts closer to the light.
Deuteronomy 10:12-20 And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command you this day for your good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S your God, the earth also, with all that is in it. Only the LORD had a delight in your fathers to love them, and he chose their descendants after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, mighty, and awesome, who regards not persons, nor takes reward: He executes justice for the fatherless and widow, and loves the stranger, in giving him food and clothing. Love you therefore the stranger: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the LORD your God; him shall you serve, and to him shall you cleave, and swear by his name.