Abomination that makes Desolate, how do you see this as happening?

[Dorothy Mae]

I am curious about this particular matter. For those who think this is in the future, how do you see it as playing out? Please don't fill the page with numerous scriptures. We all know the references in Daniel and Matthew. I am asking about how it is to be fulfilled, not where it is in scripture. So:

1. How can there be an abomination placed in the temple when there is no temple? Do you believe Israel will tear down the Dom of the rock and build a temple there? (This is very unlikely as the Muslims will not take that lying down.)

2. What kind of abomination could be placed there that is so bad, it causes the Jews (most of whom are actually atheists today*) to be desolate (a very deep depression.)

*only 30% of Jewish said they were religious in 2015...a very atheist country

Israel among the least religious countries in the world

Only 30% of Israelis say they are religious, survey finds; Thailand is most religious country in the world and China is the least.

www.haaretz.com

 

[Hidden In Him]

I can't resist you, LoL. I have a little time so let me respond.

To anyone else who should want to discuss this post with me, I'm not normally into arguing eschatology with others to begin with, and I don't have a ton of time right now anyway, so I will likely only be responding to Dorothy Mae in this thread unless replies are especially insightful, or coming from a friend.

God bless,
- H

1. How can there be an abomination placed in the temple when there is no temple? Do you believe Israel will tear down the Dom of the rock and build a temple there? (This is very unlikely as the Muslims will not take that lying down.)

My personal belief is that this will be part of the deal the Antichrist makes with Israel that establishes the covenant with them. As a Muslim, and the one in control of the Caliphate, he will agree to let the Israelites build their temple again, but this will be the bait, as it were. He will have no intentions of actually letting them use it for long. The entire thing will be a ploy for them to simply prepare the way for their own demise. After it is built, in the middle of the seven years, he will break the covenant, enter the temple, take his seat there and effectively display that he is their god now for all intents and purposes, and those who do not reject their Judaism at this point will die.

2. What kind of abomination could be placed there that is so bad, it causes the Jews (most of whom are actually atheists today*) to be desolate (a very deep depression.)

Doesn't mean depression. "Abomination that causes desolation" refers to the setting up of a statue or likeness in the temple (likely a hologram, since Revelations says the image will be able to talk). Again this will effectively be saying he is their god now, and it will cause the Jews to flee into the wilderness for their lives, thereby making Jerusalem desolate.

 

[Hidden In Him]

*only 30% of Jewish said they were religious in 2015...a very atheist country

When they see their temple being built again, this will change dramatically. In fact, the reason most Jews likely don't have a great deal of faith today is precisely because they have no temple, and intuitively understand it is the beating heart of their faith going back to Old Testament times.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When they see their temple being built again, this will change dramatically. In fact, the reason most Jews likely don't have a great deal of faith today is precisely because they have no temple, and intuitively understand it is the beating heart of their faith going back to Old Testament times.

Why do you think a building will make them believe in God? Where is the logical connection? He never promised them a building, did He?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can't resist you, LoL. I have a little time so let me respond.

To anyone else who should want to discuss this post with me, I'm not normally into arguing eschatology with others to begin with, and I don't have a ton of time right now anyway, so I will likely only be responding to Dorothy Mae in this thread unless replies are especially insightful, or coming from a friend.

God bless,
- H


My personal belief is that this will be part of the deal the Antichrist makes with Israel that establishes the covenant with them. As a Muslim, and the one in control of the Caliphate, he will agree to let the Israelites build their temple again, but this will be the bait, as it were. He will have no intentions of actually letting them use it for long. The entire thing will be a ploy for them to simply prepare the way for their own demise. After it is built, in the middle of the seven years, he will break the covenant, enter the temple, take his seat there and effectively display that he is their god now for all intents and purposes, and those who do not reject their Judaism at this point will die.


Doesn't mean depression. "Abomination that causes desolation" refers to the setting up of a statue or likeness in the temple (likely a hologram, since Revelations says the image will be able to talk). Again this will effectively be saying he is their god now, and it will cause the Jews to flee into the wilderness for their lives, thereby making Jerusalem desolate.

Thanks for responding, H. So essentially the answers are not seen in the world as we know it now but a superman will simply makes all these things happen. Is that right? This answer does make sense in light of your position, btw.

So there is no need to look at the world today for matching events, right? Since there isn’t the slightest hint of this being a reality anytime soon, can the futurists relax knowing none of this is in the works? I mean so far nations are resisting one man power plays.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do you think a building will make them believe in God?

Because it is near to impossible to maintain the entire Levitical system without a temple, and without the Levitical system the whole religion essentially gets gutted from within, and becomes more like a Jewish philosophy with a bunch of tradition thrown in.

So there is no need to look at the world today for matching events, right?

You mean as a Historicist?

Since there isn’t the slightest hint of this being a reality anytime soon, can the futurists relax knowing none of this is in the works?

Who said that? LoL.

 

[dwb001]

Lets try to address the OP question.

Have you aligned the Eastern Gate with the Mount of Olives? The Dome of the Rock is to the south of the location that historians say the Temple stood on. So no problem with the Dome.

The future Temple could be a Tabernacle. I am sure that thing could be put up in a few hours. So time is not an issue.

Red Heifers are in Israel and getting ready to sanctify the priests and Temple. So no religious reasons to hinder the Temple.

Rev 11:1-2 Seems to show a shared Temple Mount area. So part of the peace treaty could be a shared Temple Mount... so no issues politically.

Then we have a Temple in which the Abomination (possibly King Charles) can set up his statue. And at that point he could side with the Muslims and enact their eschatology. Thereby making Jerusalem desolate for the Jews.


Is this how it will play out? I don't know... but you asked how I could see it happening... and there you are.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because it is near to impossible to maintain the entire Levitical system without a temple, and without the Levitical system the whole religion essentially gets gutted from within, and becomes more like a Jewish philosophy with a bunch of tradition thrown in.

But the records of who is a levite were burned. So they’re no distinguishing tribes. And do you really think modern atheists are going to go for ancient world animal sacrifices?

You mean as a Historicist?

I was thinking the many who think this is future. There’s no one world leader on horizon that fits anytime soon.

Who said that? LoL.

I applied the definition to real life which is how one evaluates prophesy.

 

[dwb001]

But the records of who is a levite were burned. So they’re no distinguishing tribes. And do you really think modern atheists are going to go for ancient world animal sacrifices?

Maybe a quick "23 And Me" test could solve that.
Do we have DNA of past Levites and Priests? Bones in ossuaries?
So we could rebuild the "lost tribes" with science!

And who doesn't like a barbecue. ;)

I was thinking the many who think this is future. There’s no one world leader on horizon that fits anytime soon.

Look at the world stage... one world leader is closer then ever.

I applied the definition to real life which is how one evaluates prophesy.

Same process... different answers.

 

[Highway54]

I am curious about this particular matter. For those who think this is in the future, how do you see it as playing out? Please don't fill the page with numerous scriptures. We all know the references in Daniel and Matthew. I am asking about how it is to be fulfilled, not where it is in scripture. So:

1. How can there be an abomination placed in the temple when there is no temple? Do you believe Israel will tear down the Dom of the rock and build a temple there? (This is very unlikely as the Muslims will not take that lying down.)

2. What kind of abomination could be placed there that is so bad, it causes the Jews (most of whom are actually atheists today*) to be desolate (a very deep depression.)

*only 30% of Jewish said they were religious in 2015...a very atheist country

Israel among the least religious countries in the world

Only 30% of Israelis say they are religious, survey finds; Thailand is most religious country in the world and China is the least.

www.haaretz.com

I believe you are referring to Mat 24:15 Dot. In the first century it was fulfilled when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem Luke 21:20.

As you know I believe those signs are a two fold prophecy, so in our times with the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Lets try to address the OP question.

Have you aligned the Eastern Gate with the Mount of Olives? The Dome of the Rock is to the south of the location that historians say the Temple stood on. So no problem with the Dome.

The future Temple could be a Tabernacle. I am sure that thing could be put up in a few hours. So time is not an issue.

That you think an edifice like the Jewish temple can be done in a few hours is astounding. But in any case, futurists need take no thought regarding end times doom until that is done I assume.

Red Heifers are in Israel and getting ready to sanctify the priests and Temple. So no religious reasons to hinder the Temple.

Except most Jews are atheists.

Rev 11:1-2 Seems to show a shared Temple Mount area. So part of the peace treaty could be a shared Temple Mount... so no issues politically.

Then we have a Temple in which the Abomination (possibly King Charles) can set up his statue. And at that point he could side with the Muslims and enact their eschatology. Thereby making Jerusalem desolate for the Jews.


Is this how it will play out? I don't know... but you asked how I could see it happening... and there you are.

Until it’s built no futurist need worry.

Maybe a quick "23 And Me" test could solve that.
Do we have DNA of past Levites and Priests? Bones in ossuaries?
So we could rebuild the "lost tribes" with science!

No, since there are no samples of originals, it’s impossible. Even today, genetic tests are entirely based on the genetic material
of CURRENT inhabitants, not those millennia ago.

And who doesn't like a barbecue. ;)

Look at the world stage... one world leader is closer then ever.

Not really. The national resistance to such is very strong.

Same process... different answers.

Well since you cannot produce any actual events that fit, the answers are widely different. So far there’s nothing at all that matches in the real world…nothing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe you are referring to Mat 24:15 Dot. In the first century it was fulfilled when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem Luke 21:20.

How do armies surrounding a city become an abomination that causes desolation?

As you know I believe those signs are a two fold prophecy, so in our times with the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation.

That’s one futurist view. Doesn’t answer my question, though.

 

[dwb001]

That you think an edifice like the Jewish temple can be done in a few hours is astounding. But in any case, futurists need take no thought regarding end times doom until that is done I assume.

I said Tabernacle. You remember the difference between the Temple and the Tabernacle, right?

Except most Jews are atheists.

Not my point at all.

Until it’s built no futurist need worry.

Except for all the rest of Revelation.

No, since there are no samples of originals, it’s impossible. Even today, genetic tests are entirely based on the genetic material
of CURRENT inhabitants, not those millennia ago.

I did point out bones in ossuary's... we have the bones of Caiaphas... so we can build the priestly DNA tree from there.
And no DNA tests are not entirely based on CURRENT inhabitants. Otherwise it would not be called "AncestryDNA".

Not really. The national resistance to such is very strong.

Yep... but could be broken down by the "right" person. ie. the Anti-Christ.

Well since you cannot produce any actual events that fit, the answers are widely different. So far there’s nothing at all that matches in the real world…nothing.

And you provide the answer in your own post.
"So far..."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I said Tabernacle. You remember the difference between the Temple and the Tabernacle, right?

The prophesy is in the temple. You know that verse right?
It says T e m p l e, not Tabernacle.

Not my point at all.

Probably not but it plays a role nevertheless.

Except for all the rest of Revelation.

Doesn’t matter. No temple=no tribulation.

I did point out bones in ossuary's... we have the bones of Caiaphas... so we can build the priestly DNA tree from there.

Those were burned in the destruction along with the rest of the city. And you’d need comparison DNA unless you want only descendants of that one man, should it be valid. In any case, it’s doubtful any one could find much intact DNA after the burning of the city.

And no DNA tests are not entirely based on CURRENT inhabitants. Otherwise it would not be called "AncestryDNA".

Yes they are. It’s assumed inhabitants are descendants of other people who lived there.

Yep... but could be broken down by the "right" person. ie. the Anti-Christ.

And you provide the answer in your own post.
"So far..."

That’s the futurist faith but it has no basis in observation. So far resistance is evident. But I know futurists believe strongly in that bogey man.

 

[journeyman]

I believe the abomination of desolation is the rejection of God. It occured when,

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Act.4:26

This is the root cause, but it's ongoing, because Christ lives in believers and is therefore rejected by the devils system daily.
It's confusing, because today, christiandom sees our Saviors sacrifice as judgment on sin, instead of the reason for judgment on sin.

 

[dwb001]

The prophesy is in the temple. You know that verse right?
It says T e m p l e, not Tabernacle.

So now you are a stickler for exact words.
Funny how things change.

Probably not but it plays a role nevertheless.

I don't think it does play as much of a role as you think.

Doesn’t matter. No temple=no tribulation.

That is a silly stance to take.
What do you base that on?

Those were burned in the destruction along with the rest of the city. And you’d need comparison DNA unless you want only descendants of that one man, should it be valid. In any case, it’s doubtful any one could find much intact DNA after the burning of the city.

Nope. We have the bones.
And you don't understand how DNA testing works. Familial testing of DNA is a common occurrence.

Yes they are. It’s assumed inhabitants are descendants of other people who lived there.

Familial DNA testing is common in this day and age. If you know the DNA of one person you can test for familial links.

That’s the futurist faith but it has no basis in observation. So far resistance is evident. But I know futurists believe strongly in that bogey man.

So you don't listen to the news?
WHO is making great inroads into controlling populations.
And Charles is the actual son of god when you do the research.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So now you are a stickler for exact words.
Funny how things change.

You try to get away with saying a temple can be build in a short time, then switch to a tabernacle ignoring the fact that the prophesy is temple. Gotcha!

I don't think it does play as much of a role as you think.

Not according to those who read the predictions of the temple and talk about it as necessary.

Nope. We have the bones.
And you don't understand how DNA testing works. Familial testing of DNA is a common occurrence.

Obviously your field is not biology. DNA degrades over time. These bones are over 2000 years old buried in a city set on fire.

Familial DNA testing is common in this day and age. If you know the DNA of one person you can test for familial links.

You’re probably thinking living people’s DNA.

So you don't listen to the news?

Ah yes, the personal insult. for_his_glory, this is being disrespectful.

WHO is making great inroads into controlling populations.
And Charles is the actual son of god when you do the research.

What does that have to do with the Antichrist, one superman, controlling the world?

 

[dwb001]

You try to get away with saying a temple can be build in a short time, then switch to a tabernacle ignoring the fact that the prophesy is temple. Gotcha!

Also there are reports that the stones for the Temple are already cut and just need to be blessed.
I always said Tabernacle... I haven't switched anything... but if I mis-typed... sorry.

Not according to those who read the predictions of the temple and talk about it as necessary.

Why would atheist Jews be part of the Temple predictions?
Why must all Jews need to be religious as a necessity for the Temples reconstruciton?

Obviously your field is not biology. DNA degrades over time. These bones are over 2000 years old buried in a city set on fire.

Bones that are buried are not effected by fire on the surface.
Bones in an ossuary are protected even more.
If they are trying to get dinosaur DNA... 2000 year old samples are almost brand new.
DNA has been recovered that is stated to be 500,000 years old... 2000 years... easy.

You’re probably thinking living people’s DNA.

Works for DNA... living or dead.

Ah yes, the personal insult. for_his_glory, this is being disrespectful.

I am just checking how up on current events you are.
If that is an insult... then everything is.

What does that have to do with the Antichrist, one superman, controlling the world?

That is the strawman you are building.
Did I say anything about superman?
Never thought I would be typing superman on a Christian forum.
The structure of power would need to be in place for a person to assume control over.
Also the basic mentality of the world is shifting towards authoritarian structures that make takeover possible.
So what does it have to do with the Anti-Christ... the world is going the way of authoritarian control... and that makes a single leader an acceptable state of affairs for the general public that is calling for top down control.

 

[for_his_glory]

You try to get away with saying a temple can be build in a short time, then switch to a tabernacle ignoring the fact that the prophesy is temple. Gotcha!

Not according to those who read the predictions of the temple and talk about it as necessary.

Obviously your field is not biology. DNA degrades over time. These bones are over 2000 years old buried in a city set on fire.

You’re probably thinking living people’s DNA.

Ah yes, the personal insult. for_his_glory, this is being disrespectful.

What does that have to do with the Antichrist, one superman, controlling the world?

So you don't listen to the news?.

Ah yes, the personal insult. for_his_glory, this is being disrespectful.

Sorry, but I do not see that as a personal attack, but only a question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah yes, the personal insult. for_his_glory, this is being disrespectful.

Sorry, but I do not see that as a personal attack, but only a question.

This is part of the difficulty. You think pointing out the authority fallacy in an argument is disrespectful but asking a question that essentially calls the other ignorant is not. Don’t you say all this just believe the book was written in 96 AD? Just a question so it’s ok, right?