About how many here hold some preterism views?

[Deborah13]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?
Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

 

[JLB]

With the continued sacrifice being considered an abominatiin, the Roman Garrison could havw been consudered to be on the wing if theabomination after the indwelling of christ was complete

This is one of the interpretations I have read, too. Like military language.

I've also considered like an out stretched arm. Like the 'arm of the law'.

The events were 'determined, decided' at the cross. In crucifying Jesus their fate was determined.

14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), Mark 13:14

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15


Sacrifices do not stand, and they don't happen in the holy place.

Keep in mind the holy place is the name of a room in the temple.

If the temple is defiled, that room is still called the holy place, for that is the name of that room.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

So, here is my question to JLB and Eugene. Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age", and since the context of Jesus' discourse was also only about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not the "end of the age", why does Jesus mention the AOD in verse 14 and his "coming in the clouds" in verse 26; both of which YOU CLAIM are future events which will yet happen in the "end of the age"?

Matthew records a private conversation.

Mark records a private conversation.

Both Matthew and Mark are the same setting.

We already know, as Matthew records, that they asked what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

So, the discourse is the same, though Mark records some things that Matthew doesn't.

I have already shown you from Daniel 9, that The AOD is not associated with the events of 70 AD, as you have admitted, so do even try to change your story about the Abomination of Desolation.


7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
Could all the disciples keep up with all the wars and rumors of wars?


8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

Could the disciples who were present at this discourse, track and keep up with earthquakes, and famines, and troubles from all over the earth.

And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Could the disciples be able to reach every ethnic group of the world? There are still unreached ethnic groups even today that have not heard the Gospel.

12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

How could just the disciples be hated by all, if all ethnic groups have not heard the Gospel?


These are directives to all who read these words, as Jesus stated -

37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!"


JLB

Sorry JLB, you have run out of silly answers.

The Holy Ghost inspired each writer to express truth, nit so we could ignore one and favor another.

The FACT that Mark 13 mentions nothing about the "end of the age" yet both the AOD and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" are mentioned ONLY in the context of Jerusalems destruction tells us that both these events are both CONNECTED to Jerusalems destruction!

You said:" Mark records a private conversation."

Thank you for saying this, it proves my point.

Jesus' " private conversation" was with HIS DISCIPLES, and he told THEM in verse 14 "you shall see the AOD..." in the context of Jerusalems destruction!!

The AOD was the "SIGN" which the disciples asked about!

The Holy Ghost was communicating that the AOD and Jesus' coming in the clouds have EVERYTHING to do with 70ad!
You must deal with this fact!

Even Matthews account says the same thing.

You said: "Matthew records a private conversation"

Yes, and that "private conversation" was with his disciples!
Jesus told his disciples "...you shall see the AOD..."!

Both Matthew and Mark say the same thing ..."this generation shall not pass unti all these things be fulfilled/done"

You must face the fact that the "end of the age" in Math.24 is not future, the AOD is not future, the "coming in the clouds" was not referring to a "second coming" of Jesus!

Thanks

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB, you have run out of silly answers.

You mean silly scriptures.

The Holy Ghost inspired each writer to express truth, nit so we could ignore one and favor another.

Yes both Matthew and Mark record the same private conversation -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Thinking that Jesus came already is deception.

Thinking that Jesus came and it was invisible is entertaining deception.

Thinking Jesus came in 70 AD is entertaining deception.

Thinking the end of the age has come is entertaining deception.

Why would you want to entertain deception.

Do you honestly believe the end of the age has taken place?


Matthew and mark record the same conversation.


What would be more ridiculous to believe between these two statements -

Jesus has already returned and the resurrection is past. Or

The wailing wall is in fact part of the Temple, and therefore not one stone upon another has yet occurred.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), Mark 13:14

What in scripture is an abomination, see link to definition and Thayer's Lexicon. I don't see where is speaking of a man. See we want to say that there is a man who will be worship as an idol so that makes it fit, maybe. This abomination is an 'it' but then the word abomination is neuter so it needs a neuter to go with it.
So I can't see how this helps really in the grammar. But do consider that statues (idols) stand and so does a vaccum cleaner. So the 'standing' doesn't help.
So from neither the grammar or the 'standing' do we get any help with the description other than it's an idol in some form.

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G946&t=KJV

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb9.pdf
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb9.pdf

From the Gk it is apparent that the 'holy place' is referring to the temple not the 'holy of holies'.

To see the difference we can look at Hebrews 9:3 which KJV translates as Holiest of all.
In looking at the interlinear we see, 'hagia' followed by 'hagion'. So the KJV is an accurate translation as would be Holy of Holies (behind the veil).

So to say that Matt. 24:15 is speaking of the 'holy of holies' would be incorrect. It simply says 'the temple'.

We can find the same word used with a different form, used to describe Jerusalem as the holy city.

So I cannot see we can use either of these arguments to verify this abomination as a man standing in the Holy of Holies. It just doesn't hold up. If I have made mistake in the Gk translations of how I am looking at it, someone please correct me.

So if we take each argument honestly we need different arguments. JLB, I used to see just what you see, so please don't take what I say as a combative stance against your belief. I want to know the truth not what I think is says, or I been taught it says.
If we get to a place where there is no clear answer, then there is no clear answer, period. But grammar is important in understanding just as it is in English and we have to assume that the grammar used is what the apostle intended to say.

 

[Eugene]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

Eugene, I was referring to Marks account:

Mark 13:1-4 "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here? (Referring to Jerusalem and the temple)
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? (referring to Jerusalem) There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down (referring to Jerusalem's destruction).
As as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Tell us, when shall these things be? (referring to Jerusalems destruction) And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? (referring to the destruction of Jerusalem)".

So, here is my question to JLB and Eugene.

Since in Marks account of the olivet discourse, the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age", and since the context of Jesus' discourse was also only about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not the "end of the age", why does Jesus mention the AOD in verse 14 and his "coming in the clouds" in verse 26; both of which YOU CLAIM are future events which will yet happen in the "end of the age"?

Thanks, Hope of glory

Matthew 24:1-3 and Mark 13:1-4 describe the same event, and yes and there are three questions asked; two of them being future. Mark 13:14 & Mark 13:26 future, Daniel 9:26 past, and Daniel 9:27 future.

 

[Sinthesis]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?
Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), Mark 13:14

What in scripture is an abomination, see link to definition and Thayer's Lexicon. I don't see where is speaking of a man. See we want to say that there is a man who will be worship as an idol so that makes it fit, maybe. This abomination is an 'it' but then the word abomination is neuter so it needs a neuter to go with it.
So I can't see how this helps really in the grammar. But do consider that statues (idols) stand and so does a vaccum cleaner. So the 'standing' doesn't help.
So from neither the grammar or the 'standing' do we get any help with the description other than it's an idol in some form.

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G946&t=KJV

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb9.pdf
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb9.pdf

From the Gk it is apparent that the 'holy place' is referring to the temple not the 'holy of holies'.

To see the difference we can look at Hebrews 9:3 which KJV translates as Holiest of all.
In looking at the interlinear we see, 'hagia' followed by 'hagion'. So the KJV is an accurate translation as would be Holy of Holies (behind the veil).

So to say that Matt. 24:15 is speaking of the 'holy of holies' would be incorrect. It simply says 'the temple'.

We can find the same word used with a different form, used to describe Jerusalem as the holy city.

So I cannot see we can use either of these arguments to verify this abomination as a man standing in the Holy of Holies. It just doesn't hold up. If I have made mistake in the Gk translations of how I am looking at it, someone please correct me.

So if we take each argument honestly we need different arguments. JLB, I used to see just what you see, so please don't take what I say as a combative stance against your belief. I want to know the truth not what I think is says, or I been taught it says.
If we get to a place where there is no clear answer, then there is no clear answer, period. But grammar is important in understanding just as it is in English and we have to assume that the grammar used is what the apostle intended to say.

There are some who consider the roman armies circling of Jerusalem as the abomination [from the jewish perspective] which causes desolation. Compare the following.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


In late 66 Cestus Gallus with the 12th legion circled Jerusalem, but then retreated, giving the believers opportunity [and sign] to leave.
I don't know if I personally adhere to that perspective, but it was one of the events predicted by Jesus to that generation.

Here is a link which relays the chronology of Gallus.
http://www.josephus.org/warChronology2.htm

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Ok, then the following verses then are the context of what Jesus was refferring to about seeing the kingdom of God, which states -

27 "But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God." 28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah"--not knowing what he said. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud.
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.

Were Moses and Elijah a part of Gods Kingdom?
What were the disciples shown when they entered the cloud?
JLB

It says that they kept quiet and told no one IN THOSE DAYS [the days of Jesus' living] of the transfiguration, not particularly what they had seen [if anything] in the clouds.

Here are the contexts of the 3 accounts for all to see. Note particularly the verse directly preceding [BLACK] the verse telling his disciples that some standing there who would not taste death till they had seen the kingdom of God. [BLUE] The black verses use the words power, glory, angels, reward, etc. which you said I added to the text.

Matthew 16 (King James Version)

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
28 And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke:

18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The context of his words are his affirming [again] his deity as the son of God. This time he asks them to tell him who they say that He is.

And then he tells his disciples of his coming suffering and death.

Mark 8:34 says that he called the others who were with them to hear these words. Thus the testing and suffering would not be limited to the 12 disciples.Then he tells them all those who are following him [in this adulterous and sinful generation] that they will also suffer and be tempted to the point of death, to deny him; the truth of his identity [Peters confession]; and the authority of his positive words and message of LIFE. These verses are highlighted in RED.

Thus, with the context of his telling them of his impeding suffering and death at the hands of the Jewish leaders, he is saying that they also will be tested in the same way. This is later again forecast for them in the olivet [and likely other places in the gospels, revelation and epistles.

In the OT, t's foretold in Dan 7:21,25 as the war against the saints; forecast in Deut 32:19 as the provoking of his sons and daughters; and in Is 59:15 it says that those who wished to depart from evil made themselves a prey. There's likely many other references.

Speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees;

Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

In the Olivet:
Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luke
21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Mark
13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. [Isaiah 66:5]
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

He that maintained his testimony of truth [Peters confession] and their peace were the ones who were vindicated [rewarded] and eternally "saved", approved, justified. [though some may have physically lost their lives]
Furthermore, those who remained alive through these events were allowed to safely escape Jerusalem/Judea and to safely recross Jordan into Pella, or into Asia Minor or other areas until after the events had transpired and the persecutions eased.

In another post you asked;

What would be more ridiculous to believe between these two statements -
Jesus has already returned and the resurrection is past. Or
The wailing wall is in fact part of the Temple, and therefore not one stone upon another has yet occurred.

The wailing wall, if not part of a later rebuilding attempt, was part of the outer supporting wall of the temple mount complex of buildings; not part of the temple itself or it's outer court walls. It's likely a artifact of Herod's expanded extravagance.

However, what is more viable and supported?

To re-consider that Jesus returned [in power, glory, with angels, with reward] AND REMAINS through his believers as was prophesied and as he told those to whom he was speaking;

Or that Jesus lied or was misinformed about the fathers timing of his coming in his Kingdom with power before some of those to whom he was speaking had tasted death?

and to twist Jesus' intent, purpose and words about the timing of the destruction of the temple just because those happenings don't fit our previous beliefs and indoctrination about a future "end of the world", OR even because we find a few particulars [the wailing wall] which, when mistaken for something he was referring to, [the temple and it's buildings] don't fit the actions that were to be taken upon those things which He WAS referring to; namely the temple and it's buildings.

You've already affirmed that Jesus came in his kingdom by trying to fit the words of Lk 9:27 into the events [the transfiguration] directly following. But yet you say he is speaking of a still future coming in the olivet, though he says in Mk 8/9; Matt 16; Luke 9; that he would come in his kingdom in power and glory, with angels and reward before some of those who were standing there would die.

Perhaps a reconsideration of what is meant by the end of the age, and the kingdom of God [and other doctrines] is in order.

Thanks all for enduring these repeated topics.

 

[Hope of glory]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?

Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

AMEN! That is the logical conclusion!

Since the disciples only asked questions pertaining to Jerusalems destruction in Mark 12 (and Luke 21) Jesus' entire discourse focuses ONLY on answering those question.

Therefore the AOD in verse 14 and Jesus' coming on the clouds in verse 26 of Mark13 relates directly to Jerusalems destruction of 70ad.

This means the "end of the age", in Math.24 is not a future event (which the language in the discourse clearly proves) but
a first century period which began in 30ad and culminated in 70ad! A 40 year generation in the first century experience the end of the age, the AOD, and Jesus' "coming in the clouds"!

Blessings!

 

[Hope of glory]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

Eugene, I was referring to Marks account:

Mark 13:1-4 "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here? (Referring to Jerusalem and the temple)
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? (referring to Jerusalem) There shall not be left one
stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down (referring to Jerusalem's destruction).
As as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Tell us, when shall these things be? (referring to Jerusalems destruction) And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? (referring to the destruction of Jerusalem)".

So, here is my question to JLB and Eugene.

Since in Marks account of the olivet discourse, the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and
not about the "end of the age", and since the context of Jesus' discourse was also only about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not the "end of the age", why does Jesus mention the AOD in verse 14 and his "coming in the clouds" in verse 26; both of which YOU CLAIM are future events which will yet happen in the "end of the age"?

Thanks, Hope of glory

Matthew 24:1-3 and Mark 13:1-4 describe the same event, and yes and there are three questions asked; two of them being future. Mark 13:14 & Mark 13:26 future, Daniel 9:26 past, and Daniel 9:27 future.

Well Eugene, then I will ask you the same question I asked JLB (JLB did not answer me, so hopefully you can)

Do the words "this generation" in Math.24:34 Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32 refer to a single (one) generation? YES or NO

Thank you

 

[Deborah13]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?
Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

Yes, I was just reading in Blue Letter in Trench's synonyms section. He was saying that the translators may have done a disservice in not translating exactly the words used in the GK, such as world compared to age and a few others. There is also a difference IMO between 'coming' and 'presence'.

What would their 'age' be to them?

Looking at Matt. 24:20-21
In the Gk the first meaning of 'world' is not the planet but "an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government"

IMO. Unless we think that sometime in the future we should be hoping that 'the tribulation' does not come on the Sabbath, which doesn't make sense in the context then v21 is not referring to the 'world' as the earth. But it could certainly be referring to a 'system' or 'arrangement' or 'order'.
In v21, then what could this be referring to? Well, it says 'from the beginning' what system existed from the beginning. Well, in the garden the first sacrifice was made to cover man's sin and staying within the context of the discussion (the destruction of the temple (system of sacrifices))....

Just my thoughts....

 

[jasoncran]

well, the problem is that a jew may pay a gentile to drive him or her where they want to go. another thing is who today sits and talks on housetops?that is a cultural thing unique to ancient isreal and modern arabs in third world nations.

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

Thanks for your honesty and thoughtfulness.

 

[JLB]

It says that they kept quiet and told no one IN THOSE DAYS [the days of Jesus' living] of the transfiguration, not particularly what they had seen [if anything] in the clouds.

John, for one was shown Jesus coming in the clouds, and wrote for all of us the event in the book of Revelation.

What could the other disciples have been shown as they stepped into the very same cloud of Glory that Jesus described He would return in.

Were they shown the Kingdom of God, when they stepped into the cloud.

If Moses and Elijah were there, they were in God's Kingdom, so whatever they were shown had to be related to the Kingdom of God.

You said, if anything?

God does everything for a reason.

That was His Church Leadership, those that represented His Government.

When they entered the cloud, it was for a reason. That reason was for them to see thing that pertained to God's Kingdom.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

@ Hope of glory
I suspect it all depend in the manner we read it huh?

Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age",

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us . . . of the end of the world (age)? unno

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?

Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

AMEN! may the Lord bless your honesty in revealing these things to you!
Thanks

 

[JLB]

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?
Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

Yes, I was just reading in Blue Letter in Trench's synonyms section. He was saying that the translators may have done a disservice in not translating exactly the words used in the GK, such as world compared to age and a few others. There is also a difference IMO between 'coming' and 'presence'.

What would their 'age' be to them?

Looking at Matt. 24:20-21
In the Gk the first meaning of 'world' is not the planet but "an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government"

IMO. Unless we think that sometime in the future we should be hoping that 'the tribulation' does not come on the Sabbath, which doesn't make sense in the context then v21 is not referring to the 'world' as the earth. But it could certainly be referring to a 'system' or 'arrangement' or 'order'.
In v21, then what could this be referring to? Well, it says 'from the beginning' what system existed from the beginning. Well, in the garden the first sacrifice was made to cover man's sin and staying within the context of the discussion (the destruction of the temple (system of sacrifices))....

Just my thoughts....

Jesus describes for us in the preceding verse 20, exactly what age we are in, and will will define the next age.

Please read what Jesus said about this age and the age to come.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Do the words "this generation" in Math.24:34 Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32 refer to a single (one) generation? YES or NO

Please get off the yes/no and say what you intend to. In turn I would ask if Matthew 24:33 occurred to all present with Jesus on the mount?

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (What things? Each one present seeing every single thing in Matthew Chapter Twenty-four?), know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (What generation?)

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Did all those disciples coming to Jesus in Matthew live to see that fulfilled as per Matthew 24:33? (when ye shall see all these things - not even one died?)

 

[JLB]

I was confused too about what Hope said because Matt. says they did ask?

Then it occurred to me that Mark was making reference to only one of the questions and therefore, he would have given the answers to only the question he has quoted.

At least that's my take on it. If I said Joe asked me what I bought at the grocery store my answer would be what I bought at the grocery store, I would not include in my answer what I bought at the bookstore.

It seems to me that they are all questions about the same thing, which has lead me to re-examine what His coming and the end of the age could mean, especially to the disciples then, as opposed to us today.

AMEN! may the Lord bless your honesty in revealing these things to you!
Thanks

Yes, that seems to be the general belief among preterist's.

Jesus was just speaking to twelve men in all the Gospels, and none of what He said pertains to anyone of the other millions of Christians through the centuries, especially us who live in the last days when all the technology for the mark of the beast is available, as well as world travel and knowledge are increasing, as daniel said of the last days.

Let's not forget all the prophecies that pertain to Israel, the fig tree, and surely we need to totally disregard the fact that the Jews are about to build the final temple that Paul said would be used for the lawless one to be revealed.

And let's not forget the fulfillment of all the nations that will have finally heard the Gospel.

No all those things don't matter, because Jesus was speaking to His disciples, and He already returned in 70 AD, as the resurrection is already past.

We are living in the Millennial Kingdom now, with God here with us, it's heaven on earth with no evil people here at all, because the Devil has been locked up!

Amen, a regular heaven on earth!


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Sorry JLB, you have run out of silly answers.

You mean silly scriptures.

The Holy Ghost inspired each writer to express truth, nit so we could ignore one and favor another.

Yes both Matthew and Mark record the same private conversation -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Thinking that Jesus came already is deception.

Thinking that Jesus came and it was invisible is entertaining deception.

Thinking Jesus came in 70 AD is entertaining deception.

Thinking the end of the age has come is entertaining deception.

Why would you want to entertain deception.

Do you honestly believe the end of the age has taken place?


Matthew and mark record the same conversation.


What would be more ridiculous to believe between these two statements -

Jesus has already returned and the resurrection is past. Or

The wailing wall is in fact part of the Temple, and therefore not one stone upon another has yet occurred.


JLB

JLB, again you did not answer the question. EDITED Here is what I asked.

So, here is my question to JLB and Eugene. Since the disciples only asked questions about Jerusalems destruction in 70ad and not about the "end of the age", and since the context of Jesus' discourse was also only about Jerusalems destruction
in 70ad and not the "end of the age", why does Jesus mention the AOD in verse 14 and
his "coming in the clouds" in verse 26; both of which YOU CLAIM are future events which will yet happen in the "end of the age"?

Now I will address your post (which you never do for me)

You said: "Thinking that Jesus came already is deception."

Answer: thinking that "coming in the clouds" in Math.34:30 refers to the bodily return is deception.
We have already been over this. Jesus is quoting and combining Dan.7:13, ps.110:1, Isa.19:1 ect. to describe his exaltation and vindication as rightful King as well as his judgment decreed upon Jerusalem.

You said: "Thinking the end of the age has come is entertaining deception."
Answer: thinking that the "end of the age" in Math.24:3 refers to the end of the present "church age" or of "mortal life" as we know it is entertaining deception.
We have been over this also.
Age is defined as: a period of time distinguished from others by it's special characteristics (Websters)

Anyone can see that the "Mosiac system" was a "special characteristic" which distinguished it's FUNCTIONING time period from others. The time of the Mosiac system while it functioned was an AGE!
The "functioning" of it's "special characteristics" which distinguished it from all other "systems" ended (ceased) in 70ad.
(It was fulfilled and abolished at the cross in 30ad, but it's functioning ceased in 70ad at the end of "that age")

Furthermore:

To believe that the words "....you shall see the AOD..." was not directed at the people to whom it was spoken but to a generation 2000 years in the future is to "entertain deception"

To believe the words "this generation" did not refer to the then present generation but rather to a generation 2000 years in the future is to entertain deception.

To believe the word "all" and "all these things" dies not actually mean "all these things" is to entertain deception.

Etc etc etc.....

My point still stands JLB:
In both Mark and Luke Jesus was not asked about the "end of the age" but ONLY about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad!

There was no need to mention the AOD or his "coming in the clouds" if he was only answering questions about Jerusalems destruction! The conclusion is that the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" were necessary for Jesus to mention in order to answer his
disciples questions regarding Jerusalems destruction. The conclusion is that the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" have everything to do with 70ad and "that generation". The conclusion is that the "destruction" of Jerusalem" the "end of the age" and "his coming" all speak of the same thing at the same time. Jerusalem destruction marked the end of the age which was proof that Jesus had been vindicated as rightful King and had judged Jerusalem as rightful judge!

Question: When Jesus was asked by his disciples when Jerusalem would be destroyed and what would be the sign that it was about to happen, why would Jesus mention the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?

Thanks for your response.

Question: