And God blessed the 7th-day and made it holy ...WHY?

[SputnikBoy]

And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (Genesis 2:3) ...why?

I asked a similar question about 3 months back. And, while there were a couple of posts that responded with insight, most of the others gave the usual and well-worn mainline evangelical responses that didn't answer the question anyway.

I don't want this to be a Sabbatarian-promotion or a Sabbatarian-bash for that matter. This is a legitimate question that no one has satisfactorily answered in the past. I would prefer an "I really don't know" answer rather than one that simply has no scriptural substance. Does anyone know the answer to the question?

 

[Solo]

God's creation template of working for six days and resting on the seventh is His sign to us that the entire plan of God would be completed in seven thousand years.

Peter says that one day is a a thousand years to God, and that is the hint to construct the scenario that for six thousand years man would be involved in various covenants with God to bring them into the one thousand year of rest with Jesus Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Six days God worked - Six thousand years God worked for his creation
On the Seventh day God rested - On the seventh millenium of creation God established his rest for one thousand years which will be holy and separated from all evil.

 

[Julian Pyke]

Interesting reply Solo.

 

[SputnikBoy]

It might be interesting but I don't know that it answers the question. There was no evil or sin in the world when God blessed and made the 7th-day holy. So, how does that response fit into God's reason for initiating it in the first place? Remember, Adam barely existed at that point in time.

 

[Solo]

It might be interesting but I don't know that it answers the question. There was no evil or sin in the world when God blessed and made the 7th-day holy. So, how does that response fit into God's reason for initiating it in the first place? Remember, Adam barely existed at that point in time.

Since God is all knowing and man is not, God created his creation as a template with a guide to his complete work with six thousand years of work, and one thousand years at the end for rest. The rest is after sin is conquered, and Jesus reigns on earth King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Holy is that time, and the songs sang about it can be found in Revelation.

 

[SputnikBoy]

It might be interesting but I don't know that it answers the question. There was no evil or sin in the world when God blessed and made the 7th-day holy. So, how does that response fit into God's reason for initiating it in the first place? Remember, Adam barely existed at that point in time.

Since God is all knowing and man is not, God created his creation as a template with a guide to his complete work with six thousand years of work, and one thousand years at the end for rest. The rest is after sin is conquered, and Jesus reigns on earth King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Holy is that time, and the songs sang about it can be found in Revelation.

So, God knew in advance that Satan would muss things up for humans? Hmmm. Does the Bible tell us this or are we assuming?

 

[Solo]

God knew that Adam would sin prior to Adam sinning as Jesus was in the works before the foundation of the world. Before the heavens and earth were created, God knew the entire beginning and end of time. God created time.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:18-23

We will enter the rest of God through Jesus Christ. We enter this rest by being born again of God, and will reign with Jesus in the last one thousand years.

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:1-10

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:1-10

 

[wavy]

So we could remember that he created heaven and earth (Exodus 20:11). To say it is through and done with is to say he didn't create heaven and earth. A slap in his face.

He also established it for the children of Israel to keep it because he brought them out of Egypt on the sabbath (Deuteronomy 5:15). And, yes, it does foreshadow the coming shabbat (the reign of Yahweh as Messiah on earth), I believe. Haven't studied it out. It was also a sign that Yahweh set them apart from all the rest of the nations/gentiles (Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:20).

 

[cj]

The seventh day on which God rested from His work is also the first day of man. This is significant and must be understood clearly in order to understand the reality of the Sabbath of God and how it relates to man.

Man did not participate in any of God's work, man was simply created and then immediately brought into God's rest to be satisfied with God and rest with God.

Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find crest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)

Mark 2:27-28, "And He said to them, The Sabbath came into being for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So then the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

(The verse above shows the Slave-Savior's deity in His humanity. He, the Son of Man, was the very God who had ordained the Sabbath, and He had the right to change what He had ordained concerning the Sabbath.)

The rest spoken of in Genesis 2:3 is a seed that develops through the Bible and is harvested in Revelation. The development of the seed includes the rest of the Sabbath day (Exo. 20:8-11) and the rest of the good land (Deut. 12:9; Heb. 4:8) in the OT, the rest of the Lord's Day in the NT (Rev. 1:10; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). and the rest of the mellennial kingdom (Heb. 4:1, 3, 9, 11). The consumation of the rest is the rest of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem, in which all the redeemed saints will express God's glory (Rev. 21:11, 23) and reign with God's authority (Rev. 22:2) for eternity.

We need to see that the rest of God, which was to be the total experience of man with God, was and is far more than the Jewish Sabbath.

The rest of God is an eternal rest in which His creation simply abides, with man receiving, being satisfied, and enjoying all that God has done.

This is the economy of God, He worked six days to create all that He desires, and then rested from all His work forever.

Now, in the speaking of the Bible we find the full manifestation of His work being realized in His creation,.... in time, according to His economy for it. Remembering of course that besides just creating, God also had an adversary that He needed to take care of.

Man is in God's rest for the seventh day was created in the beginning, but in another sense, due to confrontation of God's with His adversary this rest has suffered disruption for a time.


Now to the Jewish Sabbath Day,...

Exodus 20:8-11, "Remember the Sabbath day so as to sanctify it. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath..... to..... Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your male servant nor your female servant, nor your cattle nor the sojourner with you, who is within your gates.

For in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it."

Here we have the fourth commandment being given by Moses,........ but,...... it should be noted and clearly understood that this commandment actually originated in something that took place in Exodus 16.

This "something" that took place in chapter 16 regards the collecting of the double portion of the manna on the 6th day.

When Moses said to "Remember the Sabbath/Rest Day and sanctify it (meaning seperate it from the other days)" he was referring to the rest day that God had given to the Jews back in chapter 16.

The "first" day of the week was counted as starting on the morning when God first rained down "bread" from heaven. The "rest" day, the Sabbath Day, was the day that came after the sixth day, on which God rained down twice as much "bread".

The significance of the Sabbath Day in its relationship to God supplying the Jews with His heavenly bread is something that is missed by many believers, especially those who hold to the Sabbath Day in the manner of the Jewish law.

Ask yourself,.... which came first, God's double portion of manna to supply the people, or the commandment?

Fact is, unlike God who first worked and then rested, man first comes into the rest of God and then works.

Additionally, it is also important to recognize just how the manna came into the picture to begin with.

The Jews were murmuring against Moses and against Aaron. Their thirst had just been quenched, yet they were hungry and this hunger caused their flesh to be exposed.

God's response was to send His heavenly bread in the morning and in the evening send quail. This is also significant as with the heavenly bread came certain restrictions, but with the quail there were none. The manna was not of the old creation, but the quail was. The manna came with the dawning of a new day, the quail at the end of a day.


So what does all of the above have to do with the commandment of keeping the Sabbath Day?

The Sabbath was ordained so that the Jews would remember the completion of God's creation (Gen. 2:2), keep the sign of God's covenant made with them (Ezek. 20:12), and remember God's redemption accomplished for them (Deut. 5:15). Hence, to profane the Sabbath was a serious matter in the eyes of the religious Pharisees. To them it was not lawful, not scriptural. But they did not have adequate knowledge of the Scriptures. Based on their meager knowledge, they cared for the ritual of keeping the Sabbath, not for the hunger of the people.

Lets read Matthew 12:1-8,

"At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath through the grainfields. And His disciples became hungry and began to pick ears of grain and eat.

But the Pharisees, seeing this, said to Him, Behold, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.

But He said to them, Have you not read.... what David did.... when he became hungry, and those who were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and they ate the bread of the presence, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, except for the priests only?

Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?

But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

But if you knew what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice,'' you would not have condemned the guiltless.

For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

"At that time..." connects what is said in chapter 12 to what was said in chapter 11, where Jesus had just finished speaking about Him giving rest (as opposed to the traditional Sabbath Day of the Jews).

"But the Pharisees, seeing this, said to Him, Behold, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful...", tells us that according to the Pharisees understanding of the scriptures, what the disciples were doing (picking grain on the Sabbath Day) was wrong and they thus condemned them.

But,....

".... He said to them, Have you not read....", exposed the Pharisees lack of scriptural understanding and thus it was they who were truly condemned.

Also, by Jesus referring to "....what David did....", He implied that there was a restoration of the age of Kingship, back from the false authority of the priests. In God's economy the Kingship of David changed the dispensation of earthly rule from the priesthood to the kingship. Prior to David (actually Saul, but Saul's reign was negated because of his corruption) the leader of the people had to listen to the priests, but when David became king the priesthood had to submit to the kingship. Therefore, what David did with his followers was not illegal since he was over all things.

Furthermore,....

Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? Here the Lord is pointing out to the Pharisees that even the Levitical priest broke the Sabbath Day by offering sacrifices;

Numbers 28:9-10, "And on the Sabbath day two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a meal offering, mingled with oil, and its drink offering - This is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering."

And also, in John 7:21-24, "Jesus answered and said to them, I did one work, and you all marvel. For the same reason Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.

If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?"



Saints, take very good care to fully understand and appreciate Jesus concluding words to the above series of verses from John,....

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge the righteous judgment.


And why?

Because of this,...

But I say... to you that something greater than the temple is here.: Here we have Jesus declaring that He was greater than the temple; and He was/is a Person.

Thus we can know that a Person is greater than the temple in which the regulations and rituals were carried out, including those that governed the Sabbath Day.

"But if you knew what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice,'' you would not have condemned the guiltless.

For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Punto finale.



In this series of verses what we have is a three-fold verdict condemning the Pharisees.

Jesus declared that He was the real David/King, the greater temple, and the Lord of the Sabbath.

Therefore, He could do whatever He like on the Sabbath, and whatever He did was justified by Himself.

He was/is above all rituals and regulations, and since He was actually present there was no need to pay attention to any ritual or regulation.

This is the reality of these verses,... when Jesus is present it is He that should be heard and followed, and not the rituals and regulations.


NT believers follow a Person and not rituals or regulation.


A concluding note:

John 6:32, "Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of heaven.

John 6:33, "For the bread of God is He who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world."

John 6:41, "The Jews therefore murmured concerning Him because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

John 6:50, "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may beat of it and not die."

John 6:51, "I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; And the bread which I will give is My flesh, given for the life of the world."

John 6:58, "This is the bread which came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread shall live forever."



In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

wish i had time, cj, to point out all the errors in your post (no offense)

 

[wavy]

The seventh day on which God rested from His work is also the first day of man.

I decided to go ahead and answer. What is this you are talking about?

Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find crest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)

Are you comparing this with the sabbath? Apples and oranges, kid. This has nothing to do with it. He is alluding to Jeremiah 6:16. Walking in his ways, recalling Israel back to the former days. A pure Torah, void of man's traditions and becoming like the faithful fathers of old.

Mark 2:27-28, "And He said to them, The Sabbath came into being for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So then the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

(The verse above shows the Slave-Savior's deity in His humanity. He, the Son of Man, was the very God who had ordained the Sabbath, and He had the right to change what He had ordained concerning the Sabbath.)

Your unsupported assumption is, however, that he changed the sabbath law.

the rest of the Lord's Day in the NT (Rev. 1:10; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2).

If you think any of these passages are talking about the pagan worship day of Sun Day, you are highly mistaken.

We need to see that the rest of God, which was to be the total experience of man with God, was and is far more than the Jewish Sabbath.

Ah, so it is a "Jewish" sabbath? Where is this in scripture?

This is the economy of God, He worked six days to create all that He desires, and then rested from all His work forever.

Rested from his work forever? Where in the world is that in scripture?

Here we have the fourth commandment being given by Moses,........ but,...... it should be noted and clearly understood that this commandment actually originated in something that took place in Exodus 16.

Yahweh spoke directly from Sinai and all the people heard his voice. Read Exodus 20 again. This commandment came straight from Yahweh's mouth. And you are wrong about it originating in Exodus 16. This passage was about whether or not they would keep it. It originated on the seventh day of creation.

The "first" day of the week was counted as starting on the morning when God first rained down "bread" from heaven. The "rest" day, the Sabbath Day, was the day that came after the sixth day, on which God rained down twice as much "bread".

Error. He gave them bread on Aviv 16th. They gathered it six days and rested on the 22nd. There is no "first day of the week" mentioned here (if you are referring to Sun Day).

The significance of the Sabbath Day in its relationship to God supplying the Jews with His heavenly bread is something that is missed by many believers, especially those who hold to the Sabbath Day in the manner of the Jewish law.

So now it's a "Jewish" law? Read Exodus 12:49.

"At that time..." connects what is said in chapter 12 to what was said in chapter 11, where Jesus had just finished speaking about Him giving rest (as opposed to the traditional Sabbath Day of the Jews).

Apples and oranges. The sabbath day is not just some ol' "traditional" ritualistic day for the "Jews" to fancy themself with. You are comparing scriptures that have nothing to do with eachother, imo.

Therefore, what David did with his followers was not illegal since he was over all things.

What David did wasn't truly illegal because he and his men were about to DIE.

Thus we can know that a Person is greater than the temple in which the regulations and rituals were carried out, including those that governed the Sabbath Day.

"But if you knew what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice,'' you would not have condemned the guiltless.

For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Punto finale.

You've made no concrete point at all, imo. Just a mixture of different scriptures having nothing to do with eachother.

Therefore, He could do whatever He like on the Sabbath, and whatever He did was justified by Himself.

This is nowhere anywhere in the text (that he could do "whatever he liked"). He showed that it was lawful to DO GOOD (Matthew 12:12) and that since he was the Master of the sabbath, he knew what was a violation and what wasn't.

He was/is above all rituals and regulations, and since He was actually present there was no need to pay attention to any ritual or regulation.

Found nowhere in the text.

This is the reality of these verses,... when Jesus is present it is He that should be heard and followed, and not the rituals and regulations.

NT believers follow a Person and not rituals or regulation.

I can't refute something that's not in the text other than by saying "it is not in the text".

 

[cj]

wish i had time, cj, to point out all the errors in your post (no offense)

I wish you did too, as its the only way I'd get a chance to respond to your concepts concerning my errors.

In love,
cj

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks for the above lengthy post, cj. I always appreciate the effort behind the way some posts are crafted and presented whether I might agree with them or not.

From my perspective, however, I believe that many Christians with a simple faith would have no need of long and drawn out explanations from the scholars to be at ease with the idea that obedience to God is paramount to their belief in Him. Academic arguments used to defend one's doctrines abound and the result is that they often utterly confuse and mislead people in the process.

Both sides of 'the 7th-day issue' (are there any middle-ground arguments?) can make their case to the uninitiated in a relatively convincing manner. So, we perhaps need to get back to the basics where one can understand and appreciate the major theme of the Bible without the need for 'Cliff notes' to guide them.

If I, for instance, were to read the Bible from start to finish without any preconceived notions about Saturday or Sunday worship, I would have to believe that the 7th-day of Creation had some significance for EVERY living soul from Creation on. The reason I would have to believe that is because nowhere in the Bible does it tell me any different. I wouldn’t need to play charades and mind games with ambiguous texts from Paul when God told me from the start that He set the 7th-day aside and blessed and made it holy. That really should be sufficient reason to remain believing in it. Until I discover that Paul actually WAS God, then I’ll opt for God every time. NOT that I believe for one moment that Paul’s words are in opposition to the Word of God.

I would also believe that the God who created the world and everything in it and does not change would not have one set of ‘criteria’ for one specific race of people and a different set of criteria for another. Had the Jews accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah, would they then have abandoned the 7th-day Sabbath like the (much later) Gentile Christians did? No. They were commanded by God to keep it for all of their generations. Had the Jews accepted Jesus, would the gospel have then gone also to the Gentiles? It probably would have at some point in time. Would the Gentile Christians then observe the 7th-day Sabbath like their Jewish Christian counterparts?

A day is the time the earth takes to make a complete revolution on its axis.
A month is the period of time taken by the moon to return to the same longitude after one complete revolution around the earth.
A year is the period of time during which the earth makes one revolution around the sun.
But a 7-day week comes from none other than God. The number ‘seven’ in the Bible represents ‘completeness’.

And yet present-day Christians give the 7th-day Sabbath the equivalent of the finger. More than that. They refer to those who DO honor that day as heretics. They don’t, however, give the equivalent of the finger to Sunday-keeping Christians. And they don’t refer to Sunday-keeping Christians as heretics. This not only doesn’t tally with the scriptures. It’s also totally illogical!

 

[cj]

I decided to go ahead and answer. What is this you are talking about?

A strange way to start pointing out the errors of another,... by asking them what they are talking about.

Maybe you could have asked first and then concluded later.


Anyway......

Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find crest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)

CJ said... "Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened,..."

Are you comparing this with the sabbath? Apples and oranges, kid. This has nothing to do with it. He is alluding to Jeremiah 6:16. Walking in his ways, recalling Israel back to the former days. A pure Torah, void of man's traditions and becoming like the faithful fathers of old.

Is He, really? Or do you just believe He is according to what you've come to understand?

Funny though, if you check my post you'll find that I actually said much more than what you quoted;.... so I tell you what, for the sake of honesty lets reveiw all of what I said.....


CJ said.... "The seventh day on which God rested from His work is also the first day of man. This is significant and must be understood clearly.... in order to understand the reality of the Sabbath of God...... and how it relates to man.

Man did not participate in any of God's work, man was simply created and then immediately brought into God's rest to be satisfied with God and rest with God.

Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find crest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)"



Okay, so now that we have my whole speaking lets see if we can highlight some of the important parts you left out, parts that make a different point to that which you concluded I made.

First point,...... understanding the REALITY of God's Sabbath.

Second point,..... understanding how this reality RELATES TO MAN.


So, now that I've cleared up what I am saying for you, lets take a look at what you said in response...

"Are you comparing this with the sabbath?

".... comparing this (I guess you must mean our coming to Jesus to find rest) with the sabbath? (I guess you must mean the Sabbath Day and the commandment to keep it)....."

Following what I believe you are saying, allow me to respond as follows.....

Jesus is God, He, in His own words declared that He is greater than the Sabbath Day that He ordained for the Jews. As we'll see, this is what scripture says.

Being greater than the Sabbath Day, there can be no comparison between the two. One is simply lesser and the Other simply greater. End of story.

By Jesus declaring that we would find our rest by coming to Him, being greater than the Sabbath Day, the reality of what He was saying is that the rest that we would find by coming to (which means holding to) Him is greater than the rest we find by keeping (which means holding to) the Sabbath Day.


Therefore, the comparison that can be made is that of which will provide man with the greater rest,... the holding to of the Sabbath Day or the holding to of Jesus.

And don't be foolish and say that by holding to the Sabbath Day a person is holding to Jesus, as the Jews don't hold to Jesus yet believe they "keep" the Sabbath Day.


So to make clear what I'm saying,.... The REALITY of God's Sabbath and how it relates to man....... is found/centered on the full meaning of the word rest.

In fact, the word sabbath means rest.


So now that my points are clear, lets take another look at the verses from Matthew;

"Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)"

Fortunately, when viewed from the proper perspective, there is only one conclusion that can be reached regarding what Jesus was saying (and is still saying today),.... He (the one who is greater than the ordained Sabbath Day of the Jews) will provide rest for men.


Which brings us to the question,.... wasn't the Sabbath Day of God provided as a rest day for men?

It sure was, but with the coming of Jesus a greater rest for man has also come.

His words, not mine.

Apples and oranges, kid. This has nothing to do with it. He is alluding to Jeremiah 6:16. Walking in his ways, recalling Israel back to the former days. A pure Torah, void of man's traditions and becoming like the faithful fathers of old.

Well, if this is what He was doing He certainly had chosen the wrong way to do it;....... see, the scriptures (especially in Matthew) tell us that Jesus preached/taught the Gospel of the Kingdom,...... and not law of Moses.

Scripture even declares that Jesus openly stated that Moses' law was too shallow;

"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery.'' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

See, this was the excuse the Pharisees used to condemn Him, because they saw Him as preaching/teaching something other than what they understood the OT scriptures to say.

Now I find it interesting that you used the phrase "pure Torah" and then followed up with "void of man's traditions and becoming like the faithful fathers of old."

And why???

Because however you put it, with the law there is still the need for men to respond, therefore, even if Jesus had been instructiing the Jews to go back to the Torah and the former days and become like the faithful fathers of old (which He wasn't doing), where was the guarantee that they could do it?

Men failed,... over and over and over and over again.

Yet you think Jesus came to tell them to continue trying?



No Wavy,.... Jesus never taught anyone to look back,..... Jesus taught concerning pure faith (as opposed to religious effort, i.e. man keeping the law), and faith only looks forward.

And, on this matter of faith,.... you said;

"A pure Torah, void of man's traditions and becoming like the.... faithful fathers of old."

Well, according to scripture there is only one "father" of faith, Abraham,.... and he was long before the Torah.

So, if Jesus was really telling the Jews to look back, He would have been telling them to look all the way back to Abraham, which means that they would have needed to look back past the Torah, to a time when there was no Torah, which means,... no Sabbath Day either.



Truth is, you defeat yourself with your own words.



This is a long post so I'll end it here and take up the rest of your concerns in a post below.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Thanks for the above lengthy post, cj. I always appreciate the effort behind the way some posts are crafted and presented whether I might agree with them or not.

This is a deep matter that really requires much consideration. I only wish I had better utterance in order to be more clear and thus understood.

Receive this though,... It does not matter whether or not you agree with me.

If what I said is of God then your reading it would be akin to a seed being planted. And if so, it is God's job to do whatever is necessary to bring about its grwoth in you.

There are many things that I did not "agree" with when I first read them, yet now God has made these things the foundation of my relationship with Him.

And on the flip side, there are many things that I agree with that have nothing in God.

So I don't trust my "agreeing" ability anymore. I just trust God to wash away the error and give growth to the truth.

I don't say everything in my post is right, but neither do I say its wrong; but this I believe,.... there are some things that I said that you had never heard touched on before, and in time, God will cause you to regurgitate these things and chew on them for awhile; like a cow with grass, getting all the goodness out of it by slowly eating what it had earlier picked up.

From my perspective, however, I believe that many Christians with a simple faith would have no need of long and drawn out explanations from the scholars to be at ease with the idea that obedience to God is paramount to their belief in Him.

Scriptures on the one hand tell us to be simple, like children, yet on the other hand scriptures tell us to seek the deep riches of God.

Tell me, what's simple about the deep riches of God?

Consider an interesting point about the relatively young church in Thessalonica.....

Paul had only a brief stay with this local church, yet in his epistle he stated that they had become a pattern to other local churches.

This is wonderful, and shows that when saints are open to the ministry of God they can grow quickly.

But,.... Paul still need to bring them on into something more. What was this more?

Paul says it in this way,... "So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints."

And what is meant by "establish"?

Paul answered it in the verses that came before....

"Night and day petitioning exceedingly so that we may see your face.... and complete (perfect).... the things that are lacking in your faith?"

Or in other words, even though these Thessalonian saints were patterns for other believers, Paul still saw the need to come to them personally that their faith may be complete.

And what does he mean by this?

That he would continue to teach them his ways which are in Christ, "... even as I teach everywhere in every church."

".... unto all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, unto the full knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ, in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden."


So what is my point?

That for the saints to become truly established in their hearts in God there is a need to seek the deep things of God.


Now lets look at a good example of needing to come deeper into the things of God........

Above, you said "obedience is paramount.

Yes obedience is paramount,..... but scriptures tell us that this obedience is only learnt through suffering. But how does a person come into this suffering? Is it through obedience possesed before the suffering? How could it be if obedience is only learnt through suffering?

So then what? Which comes first, the suffering unto the learning of obedience, or obedience that leads to the suffering which then causes us to learn more obedience?

It must be suffering, as scriptures declare that suffering teaches obedience.

Philippians  2 : 8, "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross."

"... He humbled Himself,"... or in other words, He suffered/denied His self, and the became obedient.

So the secret to obedience finds its source in our being humble.

But humble to what?

The answer is found in the verses that precede the one above; Jesus humbled Himself to the will of the Father, whatever and wherever that will meant and took Him.

In the verses before we can see that the first thing Jesus did was "empty" Himself; which means He gave up any and every possession He had.


So, what do we have here?

You say that "obedience" is paramount (the supreme/dominant/chief) ingredient or aspect of our being able to believe in God.

But the scriptures actually tell us that your conclusion is not so proper,... close maybe, but not spot on. And a close miss is as good as a miss by a mile.

What scripture tells us is that the "paramount" ingredient/aspect of our believing is the reality of how empty we are, and not how obedient we are.

And right here we have a perfect example why there is the need to go deeper into the scriptures.

For you could continue your walk with God believing that obedience is what will bring you on with Him, and never coming to know that it is not obedience, but a matter of how empty you are that will bring you on with Him.

This word I just spoke to you, by God's mercy and in time, will cause you to become more established in God.


Was I long and drawn out?

Could I have been more succinct?

I'm sure I can use a whole lot of improvement SputnikBoy, but for now I'm trying to do the best I can.

Tell you what,... pray that God gives me the ability to be shorter and to the point. I will empty myself and openly receive it.


You know, sometimes as I read the Bible I wonder why God made it so difficult to lay hold of the truths it contains.

But this is God's wisdom, He is a mystery and only reveals Himself according to His wisdom in His economy.

So I just humble/empty myself (not always and sometimes not without a fight) to this fact.


On another note, isn't it wonderful that we can speak to each other in this way?


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

A strange way to start pointing out the errors of another,... by asking them what they are talking about.

Maybe you could have asked first and then concluded later. Anyway......

Well, if you had noticed, I separated your statements and put my answers beneath each one I felt needed addressing. Your first statement had no scripture to back it up. Nothing to tell me where it came from. So I asked you what you were talking about. It wasn't a genuine question. It was really a statement designed to be taken as you had no scripture to back up your points in context, just some thrown together scriptures that you inserted your opinion into. You can't expect people to take your word (no offense).

Is He, really? Or do you just believe He is according to what you've come to understand?

Let me ask the same thing about you: how does the sabbath have anything to do with what he said other than the fact that he mentioned the word "rest"? Because of one word we are to assume he was talking about the sabbath? And it is more probable that he could be speaking of Jeremiah 6:16 for the simple fact that there cannot be two "rest for your souls".

Funny though, if you check my post you'll find that I actually said much more than what you quoted;

I know. Some of it was irrelevant to any point so I ignored them. Some of them I agreed with and had no reason to contend with them.

.... so I tell you what, for the sake of honesty lets reveiw all of what I said.....

Alright.

Following what I believe you are saying, allow me to respond as follows.....

Jesus is God, He, in His own words declared that He is greater than the Sabbath Day that He ordained for the Jews. As we'll see, this is what scripture says.

Being greater than the Sabbath Day, there can be no comparison between the two. One is simply lesser and the Other simply greater. End of story.

What? Although he is greater than the sabbath, this had nothing to do with the passage. You took it way out of context. End of refutation.

By Jesus declaring that we would find our rest by coming to Him, being greater than the Sabbath Day, the reality of what He was saying is that the rest that we would find by coming to (which means holding to) Him is greater than the rest we find by keeping (which means holding to) the Sabbath Day.

Flawed, based off of the previous notion that him being "greater than the sabbath" has anything to do with that Matthew 12 passage, imo. You didn't give enough evidence to support that, just commented on it and inserted your opinion into it. Wasn't sound teaching to me. Of course the anti-sabbatarian, anti-Torah believer is going to agree with what you said for the simple fact that they don't care either way; just as long as the sabbath does not have to be kept and we can attempt to find scripture to prove it. I think the argument was fairly weak from an objective standpoint.

Therefore, the comparison that can be made is that of which will provide man with the greater rest,... the holding to of the Sabbath Day or the holding to of Jesus.

Once again, you are comparing apples with oranges. You are trying to make the point into him claiming he was the real rest and therefore we don't have to keep the sabbath because the sabbath is kept in him (an argument I have heard 100s of times before). However, that is a complete butchering of context.

And don't be foolish and say that by holding to the Sabbath Day a person is holding to Jesus, as the Jews don't hold to Jesus yet believe they "keep" the Sabbath Day.

Why are you making arguments up in your head to argue against me?

So to make clear what I'm saying,.... The REALITY of God's Sabbath and how it relates to man....... is found/centered on the full meaning of the word rest.

In fact, the word sabbath means rest.

And again your error is assuming that when he mentioned "rest", then he must be talking about how he is "greater than the sabbath" (something not in the literal text or the context) and how we don't need to keep the seventh day sabbath (if I am understanding you correctly).

So now that my points are clear, lets take another look at the verses from Matthew;

The points are flawed.

Fortunately, when viewed from the proper perspective, there is only one conclusion that can be reached regarding what Jesus was saying (and is still saying today),.... He (the one who is greater than the ordained Sabbath Day of the Jews) will provide rest for men.

Sabbath day of the Jews? So it is a Jewish sabbath? You have not answered that question. If "yes", where is the support for this? And once again, you have twisted the context into meaning he meant we don't have to keep the seventh sabbath anymore because he is the "true sabbath" and the one "greater than the sabbath" all because he mentioned the word "rest". His statements here, alluding to Jeremiah 6:16, is talking about walking in Torah in his favor and love and the strength he gives you without man's added burdens. A perfect example that includes the sabbath is laid out in the next chapter, wherein he criticizes on the "yokes" of the Pharisees. His statements had nothing to do with a contrast of a "Jewish" sabbath verses he that is "greater than the sabbath".

Which brings us to the question,.... wasn't the Sabbath Day of God provided as a rest day for men?

It sure was, but with the coming of Jesus a greater rest for man has also come.

His words, not mine.

Apples and oranges, imo.

Well, if this is what He was doing He certainly had chosen the wrong way to do it;....... see, the scriptures (especially in Matthew) tell us that Jesus preached/taught the Gospel of the Kingdom,...... and not law of Moses.

Do you know what the gospel of the kingdom is, may I ask? Did you know that during the first century, the Jews were under Roman occupation and under the additional burdens of the Sanhedrin concerning Torah? When you answer these questions, you'll realize how silly it was to make these statements. But you are right, keeping Torah was not his primary theme or teaching. His primary theme included many aspects of the scriptures that dealt with the restoration of Israel as a nation and brotherhood between Judah and Ephraim by his atonement. All this was to be done by listening and learning from him, and he used Torah to do it too along with all the scriptures. You have nearly created what is called a false dichotomy or dilemma assuming that either he must have preached to keep Torah as his main mission or been against it. In truth, neither are true.

Scripture even declares that Jesus openly stated that Moses' law was too shallow;

"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery.'' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

What? This isn't what he was doing. You have, based on obvious anti-Torah biases, superimposed something that isn't there. He was expounding on how the Torah should be truly interpreted, not saying it was "too shallow".

See, this was the excuse the Pharisees used to condemn Him, because they saw Him as preaching/teaching something other than what they understood the OT scriptures to say.

Of course. It wasn't that anything was "shallow". It was just that they forgot (or willfully ignored) the "weightier matters" of Torah (Matthew 23:23).

Now I find it interesting that you used the phrase "pure Torah" and then followed up with "void of man's traditions and becoming like the faithful fathers of old."

And why???

Because however you put it, with the law there is still the need for men to respond, therefore, even if Jesus had been instructiing the Jews to go back to the Torah and the former days and become like the faithful fathers of old (which He wasn't doing), where was the guarantee that they could do it?

Men failed,... over and over and over and over again.

Yet you think Jesus came to tell them to continue trying?

What in the world are you accusing me of? "Failure" had nothing to do with what I was saying. The Jews had Torah, they just needed to be spiritually redeemed and healed (which he came to do), and without the influence of wicked, 1st century Jewish leaders. The "guarantee that they could do it" and it mean anything was by faith in Messiah Yahshua. So this question:

"Yet you think Jesus came to tell them to continue trying?"

...is completely irrelevant to any point I made. You also seem to be one of those people that think that in order for Torah to be in effect, man must keep it perfectly. Sorry if that is not what you think, but that is what I see. He was preaching healing and reconciliation for the nation (both houses) by the work of himself; primarily his atonement. I said absolutely nothing about him trying to get them to keep following the "law" until they somehow got it right and didn't fail, as you seem to be accusing me of.

No Wavy,.... Jesus never taught anyone to look back,..... Jesus taught concerning pure faith (as opposed to religious effort, i.e. man keeping the law), and faith only looks forward.

Well, Yahweh and this "Jesus" must be totally foreign to eachother. And now my suspicions are confirmed after reading this. You are also one of those people who assume that salvation came by works in some dispensation of the old testament at one point, and then he came with something new and taught some new concept at another. Wrong. Salvation was always by faith. This never did away with Torah, however. Keeping Torah is our duty. Has nothing to do with our right standing, as you seem to believe I am saying.

And, on this matter of faith,.... you said;

"A pure Torah, void of man's traditions and becoming like the.... faithful fathers of old."

Well, according to scripture there is only one "father" of faith, Abraham,.... and he was long before the Torah.

Taking what I said completely out of context. Read Hebrews chapter 11 if you believe this is true. Abraham is called the "father of them that believe" though, because the covenant for Yahweh to multiply his seed and be their Elohim and make a blessed nation in which all peoples of the earth could join was first made to him, and renewed in Isaac and then Jacob. I believe Abraham along with the rest of mankind was revealed Torah in stages (check Genesis 26:5 and also note many references to Torah commandments before Sinai even in Genesis).

So, if Jesus was really telling the Jews to look back, He would have been telling them to look all the way back to Abraham, which means that they would have needed to look back past the Torah, to a time when there was no Torah, which means,... no Sabbath Day either.

So now you change up your argument? First you say he wasn't telling them to look back, but it is ok to look back because of Abraham? Should they look back to circumcision too? That was before Sinai also (of course, I believe in keeping all Torah). You've contradicted yourself and are meandering between points. Abraham was given the covenant made with him so Yahweh could birth his blessed nation to carry the oracles of Yahweh (Torah) to the world. I also believe men before Sinai kept the sabbath also because it was ordained in the beginning and Yahweh set up the moon for his appointed times; I doubt the moon had been idle and for nothing all this time from then until he appointed it at Sinai (the sabbath is one of moadim/appointed times; check Genesis 1:14; Leviticus 23)

Truth is, you defeat yourself with your own words.

You are the one that has defeated some other version of me based off arguments I did not make and assumptions made about what I believe. You have defeated yourself in doing so too.

 

[cj]

Well, if you had noticed, I separated your statements and put my answers beneath each one I felt needed addressing. Your first statement had no scripture to back it up. Nothing to tell me where it came from. So I asked you what you were talking about. It wasn't a genuine question. It was really a statement designed to be taken as you had no scripture to back up your points in context, just some thrown together scriptures that you inserted your opinion into. You can't expect people to take your word (no offense).

Wavy, you're digging yourself a deeper hole.....

See, in my "non-scriptural" speaking all I was doing was defining and making clear what my points regarding the various scriptures would be mfocused on,.... THE REALITY OF THE SABBATH DAY OF GOD AND HOW THIS REALITY RELATES TO MAN.

Again I present you with the entire opening I made (much of which you left out, although it was just one overall point being made)...

CJ said, "The seventh day on which God rested from His work is also the first day of man. This is significant and must be understood clearly.... in order to understand the reality of the Sabbath of God...... and how it relates to man.

Man did not participate in any of God's work, man was simply created and then immediately brought into God's rest to be satisfied with God and rest with God.

Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find crest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

(Here we have Jesus/God giving fallen man, fallen from God's rest, a way to come back into that which was created for man.)"


The truth is, you deleted what you wanted because you could not come up with a good response to it, and instead of being honest about it you attempted to (and are still attempting to) hide you inability in a cloud of foolish speaking.

And allow me to expose your silliness even more....

You say that there is no scripture for the parts of my speaking that you left out, but this is not true.

1..... In Genesis we find that man was created by God on the 6th day, which clearly indicates that man's first day was the seventh day, God's day of eternal rest.

Fact is, there is noting unscriptural about this statement I made.

2..... Nothing in the Bible is insignificant, everything is just God's speaking and He is not frivilous. Therefore the fact that God created man on the 6th day thus making the 7th day, God's eternal day of rest, man's first day must be important in the truth/reality it contains.

Fact is, again there is nothing unscriptural about what I said.

3.... The bible is clear that man did not participate in the work of God, and that man simply found himself created and then brought into God's eternal rest day.

Fact is, for the third time, there is nothing unscriptural about what I said.


Which now brings us to your speaking.

See, you said that you did not respond to certain opening statements of mine,... because they were not "backed-up by scripture.

Yet, the fact is my points are absolutely backed-up by scripture.

Therefore Wavy, one can only conclude that you must have no real clue about what scripture says, or that you have no problem deliberately being dishonest in the discussions you have.

And an example of this can be seen in your false speaking below (your attempt to build a strawman)...

So now you change up your argument? First you say he wasn't telling them to look back, but it is ok to look back because of Abraham? Should they look back to circumcision too?

See, in no way did I "change my argument"; my standing is in what I said, "No Wavy,.... Jesus never taught anyone to look back,..... Jesus taught concerning pure faith (as opposed to religious effort, i.e. man keeping the law), and faith only looks forward."

My making the following point,...

"So, if Jesus was really telling the Jews to look back, He would have been telling them to look all the way back to Abraham, which means that they would have needed to look back past the Torah, to a time when there was no Torah, which means,... no Sabbath Day either."

Was simply to expose the clear contradiction in your own speaking.

And, I was effective, because you then blurted out this foolishness...

I also believe men before Sinai kept the sabbath also because it was ordained in the beginning and Yahweh set up the moon for his appointed times; I doubt the moon had been idle and for nothing all this time from then until he appointed it at Sinai (the sabbath is one of moadim/appointed times; check Genesis 1:14; Leviticus 23)

See, what you said above is utterly unscriptural,..... and worse,.... you know it.

Yet, you attempt to justify it with some silly self-promoting concept.

"I doubt..."

You really have no clue what your mouth is speaking Wavy,.... but allow me to help you get clued in.

Check this out.....

You made the following grand opening statement,

Well, if you had noticed, I separated your statements and put my answers beneath each one I felt needed addressing. Your first statement had no scripture to back it up. Nothing to tell me where it came from. So I asked you what you were talking about. It wasn't a genuine question. It was really a statement designed to be taken as you had no scripture to back up your points in context, just some thrown together scriptures that you inserted your opinion into. You can't expect people to take your word (no offense).

Remember saying that?

Cause now we can honestly add the descriptive word "hypocrite" to your growing resume.

So let's see, dishonest and hypocritical.

Kinda makes one feel that there is no profit in continuing to have a discussion with you.

Or, in words similar to yours,.... You can't expect people to appreciate the words of a dishonest hypocrite.



Yeh I know, sounds harsh right?

But understand this, I still love you, and really all I'm trying to do is help you see some truth.

If you don't understand what someone is saying (even if you think you might not agree with it) ask for clarification.

And don't condemn someone for something that you yourself do.

There is nothing improper about having concepts and opinions about things.

But when we allow these concepts and opinions to blind us, then the become detrimental to our well-being.

Wavy, I care for your well-being, and this is why I speak what I do.

And something you will come to find with me is that I very really stray far from the scriptures (maybe not your interpretation of them, but nearly everything I speak on these boards has been considered in the light of scripture to the best of my ability), and for me, the Bible, OT and NT, is just one speaking of God, which begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

In love,
cj

 

[herald]

The Sabbath

For a little different perspective on the Sabbath discussion, please view my post, "Which Commandments?" ( I didn't see this discussion before I posted.)

 

[wavy]

Wavy, you're digging yourself a deeper hole.....

Sure...

See, in my "non-scriptural" speaking all I was doing was defining and making clear what my points regarding the various scriptures would be mfocused on,.... THE REALITY OF THE SABBATH DAY OF GOD AND HOW THIS REALITY RELATES TO MAN.

All I was doing is saying why it was flawed. I understand your point.

The truth is, you deleted what you wanted because you could not come up with a good response to it, and instead of being honest about it you attempted to (and are still attempting to) hide you inability in a cloud of foolish speaking.

Ok, man. Sure. I'm laughing. Seriously. You need to calm down. Seems you took it too personally. And what good response, btw, could I come up with to refute points that really have no points?

And allow me to expose your silliness even more....

Ad hominem and insults. Not the best way to gain credibility...

You say that there is no scripture for the parts of my speaking that you left out, but this is not true.

1..... In Genesis we find that man was created by God on the 6th day, which clearly indicates that man's first day was the seventh day, God's day of eternal rest.

Fact is, there is noting unscriptural about this statement I made.

I never said anything like it. You are arguing against that other me again. There was no reason to address this. It doesn't have any bearing on anything. And btw, if man was created on the 6th day, his first day would have been the 6th day. Unless you are saying he took all day and brought him to life at the very end of the day at evening starting the seventh day. However there’s no indication of that in scripture, making this an irrelevant point. Pure speculation to make something fit with whatever it is you are trying to convey. If there is anything in scripture that has anything like this, please show it to me.

2..... Nothing in the Bible is insignificant, everything is just God's speaking and He is not frivilous. Therefore the fact that God created man on the 6th day thus making the 7th day, God's eternal day of rest, man's first day must be important in the truth/reality it contains.

Fact is, again there is nothing unscriptural about what I said.

See above. So if the seventh day is Yahweh’s eternal day of rest, then do you or do you not believe in keeping it?

3.... The bible is clear that man did not participate in the work of God, and that man simply found himself created and then brought into God's eternal rest day.

Fact is, for the third time, there is nothing unscriptural about what I said.

Arguing irrelevant points. See above.

Which now brings us to your speaking.

See, you said that you did not respond to certain opening statements of mine,... because they were not "backed-up by scripture.

Yet, the fact is my points are absolutely backed-up by scripture.

I also said some of the points were irrelevant, i.e. the ones above.

Therefore Wavy, one can only conclude that you must have no real clue about what scripture says, or that you have no problem deliberately being dishonest in the discussions you have.

Hahaha! You are still arguing against that other me. You didn’t get the point of what I had been saying. See above.

“So now you change up your argument? First you say he wasn't telling them to look back, but it is ok to look back because of Abraham? Should they look back to circumcision too?â€Â

See, in no way did I "change my argument"; my standing is in what I said, "No Wavy,.... Jesus never taught anyone to look back,..... Jesus taught concerning pure faith (as opposed to religious effort, i.e. man keeping the law), and faith only looks forward."

My making the following point,...

"So, if Jesus was really telling the Jews to look back, He would have been telling them to look all the way back to Abraham, which means that they would have needed to look back past the Torah, to a time when there was no Torah, which means,... no Sabbath Day either."

Was simply to expose the clear contradiction in your own speaking.

Clear contradiction? Point out the contradiction please. I don’t remember it. Anyway, you never did clear up the reason for YOU contradicting yourself. You said “Jesus†commanded only to look forward because he only taught faith (words of your own not found in scripture, I might add). Then you compromised all that by saying he would have told them to look back to Abraham, thus contradicting yourself. You also said I had built a strawman. You didn’t indicate how I did that.

And, I was effective, because you then blurted out this foolishness...

“I also believe men before Sinai kept the sabbath also because it was ordained in the beginning and Yahweh set up the moon for his appointed times; I doubt the moon had been idle and for nothing all this time from then until he appointed it at Sinai (the sabbath is one of moadim/appointed times; check Genesis 1:14; Leviticus 23)â€Â

See, what you said above is utterly unscriptural,..... and worse,.... you know it.

Don’t tell me what I know, sir. Your credibility is now in the negative. You’ll have to deposit a little more scripture into your account. Anyway, I do not believe it is unscriptural, I believe there is logical evidence for it. If you’d like to discuss it, then we can and it will be my turn to teach what I believe. The statements I made concern lunar sabbaths (which I believe are the scriptural sabbaths) but we're not focusing on that. I don't have to elaborate. We are focusing on you and what you said. When the focus is turned on me, then I'll elaborate.

Yet, you attempt to justify it with some silly self-promoting concept.

"I doubt..."

You really have no clue what your mouth is speaking Wavy,.... but allow me to help you get clued in.

Self-promoting, eh? Well, if you’d like to discuss it, we can. And why are you using my word “silly� (just a joke). I don’t know everything but I know every bit of what I meant and I believe I have legitimate evidence to back it up.

Check this out.....

You made the following grand opening statement,

“Well, if you had noticed, I separated your statements and put my answers beneath each one I felt needed addressing. Your first statement had no scripture to back it up. Nothing to tell me where it came from. So I asked you what you were talking about. It wasn't a genuine question. It was really a statement designed to be taken as you had no scripture to back up your points in context, just some thrown together scriptures that you inserted your opinion into. You can't expect people to take your word (no offense).â€Â

Remember saying that?

Cause now we can honestly add the descriptive word "hypocrite" to your growing resume.

So let's see, dishonest and hypocritical.

Kinda makes one feel that there is no profit in continuing to have a discussion with you.

Or, in words similar to yours,.... You can't expect people to appreciate the words of a dishonest hypocrite.

So basically I gave no scripture to back up my point yet accuse you of the same, correct? I don’t believe you read anything I said. Go back up and look. I believe that I mentioned Exodus 16, Genesis 1:14, Leviticus 23 and Genesis 26:5. But we can get into more deeply if you’d like to. I am not the one trying to teach a concept. I am explaining why yours is flawed based on something in the scripture, that just so happens to be not in the scripture (if you get what I mean).

Yeh I know, sounds harsh right?

But understand this, I still love you, and really all I'm trying to do is help you see some truth.

If you don't understand what someone is saying (even if you think you might not agree with it) ask for clarification.

Your problem is, cj, is that you think you know the truth. I don’t particularly have to see it your way. To be honest, I think what you said is downright, mainstream nonsense that I hear everyday (no offense). But that’s not the point. Like I said, I am being objective and explaining why I think your argument is a weak one. Get your arguments straight and know what you are arguing against (and “whoâ€Â, btw too) before you make these bold claims.

And don't condemn someone for something that you yourself do.

Like I said, even though I did provide scriptural support for my opinion (not much, I admit) it doesn’t matter. I am not the one teaching anything. I was commenting on your lack of evidence. If I was presenting a concept myself, then I’d use more scripture.

There is nothing improper about having concepts and opinions about things.

But when we allow these concepts and opinions to blind us, then the become detrimental to our well-being.

I agree. The problem then becomes exactly who is the one with the opinions and concepts that blind us.

Wavy, I care for your well-being, and this is why I speak what I do.

And something you will come to find with me is that I very really stray far from the scriptures (maybe not your interpretation of them, but nearly everything I speak on these boards has been considered in the light of scripture to the best of my ability), and for me, the Bible, OT and NT, is just one speaking of God, which begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

Well, I appreciate the thought that you care. However, that still doesn’t change the fact that I think you are still incredibly wrong and cannot figure out what I am saying. Also, you seemed to pick out the things of what I said only to find some reason to insult me or make me look bad or something. I know you might say the same thing, but I didn’t throw out anything you said. I understood your â€Åreality sabbath†point. What I disputed was the evidence you used to make that point and therefore took out the irrelevant points that I either agreed with or that didn’t have anything to do with what I wanted to say.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I don't want this to be a Sabbatarian-promotion or a Sabbatarian-bash for that matter. This is a legitimate question that no one has satisfactorily answered in the past. I would prefer an "I really don't know" answer rather than one that simply has no scriptural substance. Does anyone know the answer to the question?

I have the answer.....

There have been documented cases that the time between Friday Sunset to Sat Sunset to be IDEAL for rest beyond other times of the week.

God works in rythm and in time...

The sabbath is part of that rythm....

SDA people are the LONGEST LIVING PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ACCORDING TO NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC

This is because they are in tune with the health and rythm aspects of God's plan for man....

What more proof do you need?