[_ Old Earth _] any christians here believe in astronomy?

[peace4all]

I mean, I just seriously began to ponder this.. Scientists have been measuring the speed of light, and the distance of stars from earth for years now, and, well, we all know it takes, what, 8.5 minutes for light to travel from teh sun to the earth right? well, now, those stars, the closest one is 4 light years away (4 years) at the speed of light.. now, the milky way, the edge of it is calculated at 15 BILLION light years away from us.. so that would definately mean that alot of stuff existed, LONG before this earth here did right?

does anyone else get confused with these young earth theories and the fact that the stars created after earth, must have been there before, if we can see them now.. right?

 

[dad]

I mean, I just seriously began to ponder this.. Scientists have been measuring the speed of light, and the distance of stars from earth for years now, and, well, we all know it takes, what, 8.5 minutes for light to travel from teh sun to the earth right? well, now, those stars, the closest one is 4 light years away (4 years) at the speed of light.. now, the milky way, the edge of it is calculated at 15 BILLION light years away from us.. so that would definately mean that alot of stuff existed, LONG before this earth here did right?

does anyone else get confused with these young earth theories and the fact that the stars created after earth, must have been there before, if we can see them now.. right?

No, in the past I believe it was not a physical only universe as it now is. Light in the universe, which was spiritual and physical traveled from the far stars in days! It was a different light. Ours we were left with as the seperation came about. Some day, it will again be merged, in the coming new heavens! Meanwhile the physical only universe light we have is a good indicator for distance, but not at all applicible to time!

 

[strengthened]

No, in the past I believe it was not a physical only universe as it now is. Light in the universe, which was spiritual and physical traveled from the far stars in days! It was a different light. Ours we were left with as the seperation came about. Some day, it will again be merged, in the coming new heavens! Meanwhile the physical only universe light we have is a good indicator for distance, but not at all applicible to time!

I totally agree with you. Light is only a good indicator for distance and not time.

What if there exist something faster than light that it can cover 15 billion light year distance in mere minutes? That will be a problem in calculating the actual age of our universe. Either the universe is only minutes old, if there exist something faster than light or it could be 15billion years old at normal light speed.

Here's another problem, we measure 1 Earth year as 1 revolution around the Sun which is around 365days at 24hr/day. You have to ponder on this, did these actually stayed constant uniformly for eons?

What if there was a time in the past where 1 Earth year equals only 100 days or even less? How old will the Earth be? What if the Earth was slowing down making 1 Earth year equal 700days? How old will the Earth be?

They say Earth is around 6 billion years old seem doubtful as this measurement is based on 1 year = 365 days = 24 hr day constant.

 

[peace4all]

even if we take it to the point of 100 days in a year, the earth would sti be 2 billion years old. I am pretty sure,with all teh calculations we do about the whole "however odd many years we have to add another second because the earths rotation grows by 9/10ths of a second" thing would be taken into consideration when finding the relative age of the earth.

These are very interestign theories about the whole light thing. Please explain more, I have never heard it and am really curious. 8-)

 

[ArtGuy]

They say Earth is around 6 billion years old seem doubtful as this measurement is based on 1 year = 365 days = 24 hr day constant.

No, actually it's not based on anything like that. That age is based on measurements of radioactive decay in rocks, and the raw data isn't calculated in terms of days or hours. It's measured as a percentage of the material that has converted from one substance to another, and that percentage is then converted into whatever time we deem handy. If you don't want a time period dependent on the movement of the Earth, hey, great - you can use seconds, which are defined based on properties of the cesium atom.

Saying that 6 billion years is wrong because the length of the day might have changed is like saying that all European measurements are inaccurate because they use the metric system as opposed to the good ol' imperial system.

As to the age of the universe, if you suppose that God would've arbitrarily changed the laws of physics at some point, you're supposing that He would create the universe in such a way as to deceive us. God is not deceitful. He would not have created something in one way, and then made it look as if it were really created differently. That's the modus operandi of Satan, not God. I think it's very difficult to escape the fact that the universe has been around for quite some time. I also think it's not difficult to reconcile this fact with a truthful and useful account of Creation.

 

[dad]

..
I totally agree with you. Light is only a good indicator for distance and not time.

What if there exist something faster than light that it can cover 15 billion light year distance in mere minutes? That will be a problem in calculating the actual age of our universe.

God has a circuit from one end of the heavens to the other, if He was bound to physical universe light speed it would take billions of years for one trip! In the bible, we see that 'imediately' some were on the other side of the sea, or disappeared out of there sight, and were seen somewhere else. Spititual beings also are not bound by physical limitations, the spiritual light that was here was fast, thats why Adam saw it in the garden, those far stars almost right away!

[quote:3948c]Either the universe is only minutes old, if there exist something faster than light or it could be 15billion years old at normal light speed.

--Or.. there will exist, and did exist this other light, but it does nor exist in our temporary physical only universe.

Here's another problem, we measure 1 Earth year as 1 revolution around the Sun which is around 365days at 24hr/day. You have to ponder on this, did these actually stayed constant uniformly for eons?

What if there was a time in the past where 1 Earth year equals only 100 days or even less? How old will the Earth be? What if the Earth was slowing down making 1 Earth year equal 700days? How old will the Earth be?

They say Earth is around 6 billion years old seem doubtful as this measurement is based on 1 year = 365 days = 24 hr day constant.

[/quote:3948c]

The descepancy is so big between the imaginary billions of years, and the actual thousands of years since creation, those days wouldn't make much difference, it had to be much bigger. My thought there is that the created universe was spiritual and physical, but a century after the flood we were left in a seperated physical only one (till the new heavens come)

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

I mean, I just seriously began to ponder this.. Scientists have been measuring the speed of light, and the distance of stars from earth for years now, and, well, we all know it takes, what, 8.5 minutes for light to travel from teh sun to the earth right? well, now, those stars, the closest one is 4 light years away (4 years) at the speed of light.. now, the milky way, the edge of it is calculated at 15 BILLION light years away from us.. so that would definately mean that alot of stuff existed, LONG before this earth here did right?

does anyone else get confused with these young earth theories and the fact that the stars created after earth, must have been there before, if we can see them now.. right?

No, in the past I believe it was not a physical only universe as it now is. Light in the universe, which was spiritual and physical traveled from the far stars in days! It was a different light. Ours we were left with as the seperation came about. Some day, it will again be merged, in the coming new heavens! Meanwhile the physical only universe light we have is a good indicator for distance, but not at all applicible to time!

Really, could you show some physical evidence that the universe used to have some spiritual evidence, even a scrap would do.

 

[dad]

I mean, I just seriously began to ponder this.. Scientists have been measuring the speed of light, and the distance of stars from earth for years now, and, well, we all know it takes, what, 8.5 minutes for light to travel from teh sun to the earth right? well, now, those stars, the closest one is 4 light years away (4 years) at the speed of light.. now, the milky way, the edge of it is calculated at 15 BILLION light years away from us.. so that would definately mean that alot of stuff existed, LONG before this earth here did right?

does anyone else get confused with these young earth theories and the fact that the stars created after earth, must have been there before, if we can see them now.. right?

No, in the past I believe it was not a physical only universe as it now is. Light in the universe, which was spiritual and physical traveled from the far stars in days! It was a different light. Ours we were left with as the seperation came about. Some day, it will again be merged, in the coming new heavens! Meanwhile the physical only universe light we have is a good indicator for distance, but not at all applicible to time!

Really, could you show some physical evidence that the universe used to have some spiritual evidence, even a scrap would do.

We can look to how the bible says it will be. God living on earth, stars and sun and us living forever, old heavens passing away...etc! It has to be merged, it couldn't happen in a physical only universe.
Likewise, we can look to the past, and see big big differences beat explained by this seperation.
Add to this the inability of science to evidence the PO past at all! And, the cherry on top is that science cannot disprove a merged future or past!

 

[Khristeeanos]

The Bible records the creation and purpose of the stars.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:16
God made two great lightsâ€â€the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

These two passages state that God created the earth and the sky before He made the stars.

The purpose of the stars are listed here:

Genesis 1:14
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

So the purpose of them was to be a calendar to the people of the earth! Amazing! :-D

Our God thinks of everything!!!

So how can we see stars that are far off?

It is easy (and God thought of that as well :wink: )

Psalm 104:2
He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

God ssstttrreettcchheedd out the heavens so that stars far off would have light available to us.

This is a great miracle of God and He didn't feel the need to explain to us all the details.

Sort of like when Jesus made enough fish to feed well over 10,000 people from just a few fish. We don't know how Jesus did it, we just know that He did it.

When Jesus healed people that were not able to see or walk, there was an apparent, yet non-existant history.

If someone gets hurt and is not able to walk for a few months, he must go through therapy before regaining muscle strength.

But the people that Jesus healed "leaped up."


There was an apparent, yet non-existant history.


Same concept here with the stars. God didn't create Adam and Eve as infants and give them shovels and corn seeds. God made the Creation mature from the instant He created it.

 

[dad]

...

So the purpose of them was to be a calendar to the people of the earth! Amazing! :-D

Part of the purpose at least.

[quote:2225f]God ssstttrreettcchheedd out the heavens so that stars far off would have light available to us.

I'd be careful with that arguement. Wouldn't the light need to continue streaming in? I think it is better to have a different light not limited by physical only universe properties.

When Jesus healed people that were not able to see or walk, there was an apparent, yet non-existant history.

? Why non existant? They were regular folks.

Same concept here with the stars. God didn't create Adam and Eve as infants and give them shovels and corn seeds. God made the Creation mature from the instant He created it.

[/quote:2225f]
Man, yes. Creation, well, that is an assumption. I don't believe He made trees fully grown, it does say He planted the garden.

 

[Khristeeanos]

God ssstttrreettcchheedd out the heavens so that stars far off would have light available to us.

I'd be careful with that arguement. Wouldn't the light need to continue streaming in? I think it is better to have a different light not limited by physical only universe properties.

Well, I believe the Bible and that is the understanding I have of what the Bible says about it.

The Bible isn't a science book, so I don't expect God to tell us so many details. The main purpose of the Bible is to show us how sinful we are and how holy God is and how He has provided us with a Savior and how to receive eternal life.

But that being said, when the Bible speaks of science, it is accurate.

[quote:de587]When Jesus healed people that were not able to see or walk, there was an apparent, yet non-existant history.

? Why non existant? They were regular folks.[/quote:de587]

What I mean is that when someone hasn't exercised in months (or in these cases many years), their muscles lose density and power. It takes a long time to build these back up to normal again. These people didn't require the normal time to gain the strength - it was given to them by God.

[quote:de587]Same concept here with the stars. God didn't create Adam and Eve as infants and give them shovels and corn seeds. God made the Creation mature from the instant He created it.

Man, yes. Creation, well, that is an assumption. I don't believe He made trees fully grown, it does say He planted the garden.[/quote:de587]

If God didn't make everything mature, it just wouldn't work. He had to create things with an apparent, yet non-existant history (time).

 

[reznwerks]

No, in the past I believe it was not a physical only universe as it now is. Light in the universe, which was spiritual and physical traveled from the far stars in days! It was a different light. Ours we were left with as the seperation came about. Some day, it will again be merged, in the coming new heavens! Meanwhile the physical only universe light we have is a good indicator for distance, but not at all applicible to time!

I totally agree with you. Light is only a good indicator for distance and not time.
Why is that? We know how fast light travels. It is a constant.How far away will your car be in one hour if it traveled 60 mph?The performance of the car will tell me both distance and speed. It doesn't matter.

What if there exist something faster than light that it can cover 15 billion light year distance in mere minutes?
Then we could use that too. As long as what we are using is a reliable tool or method it doesn't matter what we use.

That will be a problem in calculating the actual age of our universe. Either the universe is only minutes old, if there exist something faster than light or it could be 15billion years old at normal light speed.
The only way anything changes is the rules of the game. Lets make a year equal to a thousand years. Presto it's done. Our years for conversation sake is what we all have agreed to agree on. It doesn't actually change time in any way.

Here's another problem, we measure 1 Earth year as 1 revolution around the Sun which is around 365days at 24hr/day. You have to ponder on this, did these actually stayed constant uniformly for eons?
You have no evidence to suggest otherwise so you have to accept what you know. You want to throw out what you know for something you don't.

What if there was a time in the past where 1 Earth year equals only 100 days or even less? How old will the Earth be? What if the Earth was slowing down making 1 Earth year equal 700days? How old will the Earth be?
So what? The planets in our solar system are prone to the same quirks. It doesn't change time itself only how many times something rotates or makes a complete rotation. There is nothing mysterious about calculating years. It is not different than your clock. These are all things that man has agreed upon to calculate the passing of time.

They say Earth is around 6 billion years old seem doubtful as this measurement is based on 1 year = 365 days = 24 hr day constant.
Its not based on that. The age of the earth is based on the geological strata and wear rates and there is a new testing method that I posted here not long ago. The universe itself is older than that. There is light that is just reaching us now that has traveleled thousands of light years to get here. The 6000 year old earth is a fairy tale.

 

[dad]

..
Well, I believe the Bible and that is the understanding I have of what the Bible says about it.

I believe the heavens were stretched out as well, but do you really think that accounts for all but several thousand light years?

[quote:7b046]The Bible isn't a science book, so I don't expect God to tell us so many details.

I do, and think it does.

The main purpose of the Bible is to show us how sinful we are and how holy God is and how He has provided us with a Savior and how to receive eternal life.

True. But there is a lot in there.

What I mean is that when someone hasn't exercised in months (or in these cases many years), their muscles lose density and power. It takes a long time to build these back up to normal again. These people didn't require the normal time to gain the strength - it was given to them by God.

Oh, of course.

If God didn't make everything mature, it just wouldn't work. He had to create things with an apparent, yet non-existant history (time).

[/quote:7b046]
It would work. What is easier, and more logical, -planting a garden with seeds, etc, or digging up 200 foot deep and wide holes, and trying to stuff in a big grown tree? Think about it. It says He planted a garden! Plants were made only a few days before beast and man, yet they grew in time for us to eat the fruit!

 

[dad]

[quote="reznwerks].. Why is that? We know how fast light travels. It is a constant.How far away will your car be in one hour if it traveled 60 mph?The performance of the car will tell me both distance and speed. It doesn't matter.

Of course we know how fast our light travels. We do not know how fast the spiritual light then travelled.

Then we could use that too. As long as what we are using is a reliable tool or method it doesn't matter what we use.

It is reliable in the merged universe where it exists.

The only way anything changes is the rules of the game. Lets make a year equal to a thousand years. Presto it's done. Our years for conversation sake is what we all have agreed to agree on. It doesn't actually change time in any way.

No, no one is changing the rules of the physical only universe, as long as it existed, which was not in the far past.

You have no evidence to suggest otherwise so you have to accept what you know. You want to throw out what you know for something you don't.

The only evidence we have suggests it has been constant as long as there was a physical only universe. (4400 years)

Its not based on that. The age of the earth is based on the geological strata and wear rates and there is a new testing method that I posted here not long ago.

Inyerpretation, present, physical only interpretation of the evidence, like strata only, not the strata itself. That is open to interpretation.

The universe itself is older than that. There is light that is just reaching us now that has traveleled thousands of light years to get here. The 6000 year old earth is a fairy tale.

No, not old, big. Big difference. You simply assume a PO forever, and crunch the facts accordingly!

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

[quote="reznwerks].. Why is that? We know how fast light travels. It is a constant.How far away will your car be in one hour if it traveled 60 mph?The performance of the car will tell me both distance and speed. It doesn't matter.

Of course we know how fast our light travels. We do not know how fast the spiritual light then travelled.

...
"Holy Fishtails BatGod, Satan's got us surrounded with vicious DemonSharks"
"Never to worry Robin, I've got my trusty Spiritual Bat Shark Repellent"

I roll my eyes and bite my thumb at your logic.

 

[dad]

I roll my eyes and bite my thumb at your logic.

I chuckle that science does not support the mother of all old age premises, the physical only past.

 

[ArtGuy]

There was an apparent, yet non-existant history.


Same concept here with the stars. God didn't create Adam and Eve as infants and give them shovels and corn seeds. God made the Creation mature from the instant He created it.

So in other words, God lied to us through his encoding of fake information into the heavens? Yes, God made Adam and Eve mature, but he didn't also grant them a bunch of fake memories and create lots of evidence to suggest that they were actually born in a womb.

What you're suggesting implies that God is deceitful. If God had wanted to, he could've made c faster. He could have made it nigh-infinite if he'd wanted. This would've solved the problem a lot more elegantly, and it wouldn't have required that he lie to us by means of the apparent age of the universe.

Sorry, but my God, at least, doesn't do that. If God constructed the universe to appear 20 billion years old, then it's fairly clear that it is 20 billion years old.

 

[Khristeeanos]

..
Well, I believe the Bible and that is the understanding I have of what the Bible says about it.

I believe the heavens were stretched out as well, but do you really think that accounts for all but several thousand light years?

The Bible doesn't say, and anything we guess is simply an uneducated assumption.

[quote:f1283][quote:f1283]The Bible isn't a science book, so I don't expect God to tell us so many details.

I do, and think it does.[/quote:f1283]

Yes, but the main goal of the Bible is not to teach us about science, but about God.

[quote:f1283]The main purpose of the Bible is to show us how sinful we are and how holy God is and how He has provided us with a Savior and how to receive eternal life.

True. But there is a lot in there.[/quote:f1283]

We are in agreement.

[quote:f1283]What I mean is that when someone hasn't exercised in months (or in these cases many years), their muscles lose density and power. It takes a long time to build these back up to normal again. These people didn't require the normal time to gain the strength - it was given to them by God.

Oh, of course.[/quote:f1283]

[quote:f1283]If God didn't make everything mature, it just wouldn't work. He had to create things with an apparent, yet non-existant history (time).

It would work. What is easier, and more logical, -planting a garden with seeds, etc, or digging up 200 foot deep and wide holes, and trying to stuff in a big grown tree? Think about it. It says He planted a garden! Plants were made only a few days before beast and man, yet they grew in time for us to eat the fruit! [/quote:f1283][/quote:f1283]

The Bible doesn't say how God planted a garden, but think for a second about when the Bible says God created the stars.

There are enough stars that we know about right now that every person on earth can own several trillion stars to ourselves.

They are placed in an exact spot and God knows the name of each star.

Our God is quite amazing! :-D

Our God is so powerful!

And to say that God would have to "[dig] up 200 foot deep and wide holes" is putting a huge limitation on God.

Do you really think that God used a shovel? :

 

[Khristeeanos]

There was an apparent, yet non-existant history.


Same concept here with the stars. God didn't create Adam and Eve as infants and give them shovels and corn seeds. God made the Creation mature from the instant He created it.

So in other words, God lied to us through his encoding of fake information into the heavens? Yes, God made Adam and Eve mature, but he didn't also grant them a bunch of fake memories and create lots of evidence to suggest that they were actually born in a womb.

God didn't lie to us. I am not sure why you came to this conclusion based upon my post.

What you're suggesting implies that God is deceitful. If God had wanted to, he could've made c faster. He could have made it nigh-infinite if he'd wanted. This would've solved the problem a lot more elegantly, and it wouldn't have required that he lie to us by means of the apparent age of the universe.

Sorry, but my God, at least, doesn't do that. If God constructed the universe to appear 20 billion years old, then it's fairly clear that it is 20 billion years old.

The Bible teaches that God created the earth about 6,000 years ago. I trust that He is telling the truth.

 

[ArtGuy]

God didn't lie to us. I am not sure why you came to this conclusion based upon my post.

You claim that God made the universe in such a way that it's very young, yet it looks and behaves as if it were very old, such that any observations of it imply great age. This is deceitful. It's analogous to me adopting a 2-year olf girl, and then manufacturing a past for her to make it seem as if she was my birth-child. Fake some pictures in Photoshop, whip up a baby book, and voila - instant past. But that's not lying, that's just bringing her into my house in a mature state, right?

The Bible teaches that God created the earth about 6,000 years ago. I trust that He is telling the truth.

No, the Bible teaches that God created the earth, and then a bunch of stuff happened, and hey, here we are today. The idea that it's 6000 years old is based on man's own guesses and calculations, picking and choosing arbitrarily which things should be literal and which things should be metaphorical. And the best means of refuting all of the physical evidence that points to an old earth is to decide that God changed the rules somewhere along the way, even though the Bible never so much as alludes to this fact.

I mean, think about it. You're God. You created the world 1000 years ago, and for whatever reason, you're about to do something which will make it appear to anyone who bothers to look as if the universe was actually created 20 billion years ago. Wouldn't you maybe mention this fact in the recorded history of your works, just to stave off misconceptions? He's omniscient, so he clearly would've known all the confusion and doubt this would generate. It would seem rather shortsighted of him to do what he did in the manner suggested.

As I said, I don't think God would lie to us as such, and I find the implication that he would to be extremely disrespectful, and nigh-blasphemous.

At any rate, unless you can point me to the passage in which the Bible says "the earth is 6000 years old," I think you're exaggerating the concreteness of your claim.