Apostasy

[dcookcan]

Many Christians are well aware of the aspostasy that is to come before the anti-christ is revealed.

2Th 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostasy or falling away is a translation of the greek word apostasia. This word is only used twice in the entire NT. Therefore, the other reference is likely important to understand the truth of what will happen during the apostasy. (btw - the other reference is not what you may be thinking.)

I am interested in discussing this topic and I believe that people should be able to study and discern the truth for themselves; so, I will not state my opinion on the matter until people have a chance to be good bereans.

What is the apostasy?

 

[Henry]

WHAT IS IT?

Well just drive down the road and every pile of bricks that you see with a sign calling it a church, well that is what it is.

The church is not a place, it is a people. So sad that so many worship God in pagan temples.

 

[yesha]

What is the apostasy?

I'm not even clear on what exactly constitues apostasy.
For example does the idea of 'moral apostasy' apply to the sense of living in some sin (lets say you keep commiting a sin of ommision by not praying for something that you should)? Or must someone do something stronger, like not repenting of lust in terms of pornography? Or must it be stronger still, and be say, offering your firstborn as a sacrifice to Molech?

I am interested in discussing this topic and I believe that people should be able to study and discern the truth for themselves; so, I will not state my opinion on the matter until people have a chance to be good bereans.

Perhaps it's a return to the Law?
Or perhaps it's something like like everybody believes that religion is foolish, and the world comes to a state were there are no more who might believe the good news.
But I must confess, I'm not a good berean in terms of biblical prophecy.

 

[NRoof]

WHAT IS IT?

Well just drive down the road and every pile of bricks that you see with a sign calling it a church, well that is what it is.

The church is not a place, it is a people. So sad that so many worship God in pagan temples.

Nobody I know or have ever heard of has ever said the the building is the Church (notice the big C here indicating the body of believers). A chruch (notice the small c indicating the building) is just a building where followers of Christ gather to worship him. How about we just call it a big building where people gather to worship God. Does that make it better. The function of the building is the same we just change what it is called.

Back on topic.

Here is an link you might find interesting:
http://www.carm.org/church/apostacy.htm

 

[dcookcan]

WHAT IS IT?

Well just drive down the road and every pile of bricks that you see with a sign calling it a church, well that is what it is.

The church is not a place, it is a people. So sad that so many worship God in pagan temples.

You are right in that the 'eklessia' is not a building. It is a called out assembly, much the same as the OT hebrew word 'kahal'. But that is not the topic here.

 

[dcookcan]

I'm not even clear on what exactly constitues apostasy.
For example does the idea of 'moral apostasy' apply to the sense of living in some sin (lets say you keep commiting a sin of ommision by not praying for something that you should)? Or must someone do something stronger, like not repenting of lust in terms of pornography? Or must it be stronger still, and be say, offering your firstborn as a sacrifice to Molech?

Perhaps it's a return to the Law?
Or perhaps it's something like like everybody believes that religion is foolish, and the world comes to a state were there are no more who might believe the good news.
But I must confess, I'm not a good berean in terms of biblical prophecy.

I believe that the answer to my question is not nearly so vague as to have to speculate on what it is. You must first find the other use of the greek word 'apostasia' in the NT. Easy to do with a Lexicon. I will give you a hint - it is found in Acts.

 

[dcookcan]

Here is an link you might find interesting:
http://www.carm.org/church/apostacy.htm

That is an interesting link, thanks for the read. However, they do not address the only other use of the greek word 'apostasia' in the NT. I believe that it is critical to our understanding of the apostasy.

 

[NRoof]

Acts 21
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

dcookcan,
Is this the verse you are refering to?
apostasia : Falling away or to forsake

 

[guibox]

Acts 21:21

"And they are informed of thee, that thou theachest all the Jews which are among the Gentles to apostasia apo Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after customs.

This was spoken to Paul by the Jews when the Jews heard the message and glorified God.

This verse doesn't shed any light on what the apostasy means other then the definition of the word, 'to forsake', 'to apostasize'

No help here...

 

[Soma-Sight]

WHAT IS IT?

Well just drive down the road and every pile of bricks that you see with a sign calling it a church, well that is what it is.

The church is not a place, it is a people. So sad that so many worship God in pagan temples.

Right on Henry!

I agree witht that 100 percent...

 

[Dave...]

The book of Jude talks about apostacy.

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Apostates Depraved and Doomed

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Apostates Predicted

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Maintain Your Life with God

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Glory to God

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

(NKJV)

 

[yesha]

I believe that the answer to my question is not nearly so vague as to have to speculate on what it is. You must first find the other use of the greek word 'apostasia' in the NT. Easy to do with a Lexicon. I will give you a hint - it is found in Acts.

There may be some here that believe that this apostacy is abandoning the Law of Moses, however I have a hard time accepting that kind of interpretation.

My best guess at this apostacy at present is believers will abandon the Gospel and become something like 2Tim 3:1-8, which to to abandon the "Law of Christ"

I can't help but feel the reference to Jannes and Jambres indicates something prophetic.

 

[dcookcan]

NRoof and guibox
Yes, Acts 21:21 is the only other use of 'apostasia' in the entire NT. I believe that we will not understand the apostasy until we can grasp what this verse is saying.

Dave...
'apostasia' is not used in Jude. Remember that the titles were not part of the original text.

There may be some here that believe that this apostacy is abandoning the Law of Moses, however I have a hard time accepting that kind of interpretation.

My best guess at this apostacy at present is believers will abandon the Gospel and become something like 2Tim 3:1-8, which to to abandon the "Law of Christ"

I can't help but feel the reference to Jannes and Jambres indicates something prophetic.

That is exactly what I am saying. Paul was FALSELY accused of turning away from the Law of Moses (these were not Moses' Laws - but God's). Do you know what a FALSE witness is? Paul's FALSE accusers are still alive and well today, saying that Paul taught people to turn away from the Law of Moses (i.e. God's Laws). Peter said of Paul - his writings are hard to understand and the wicked will twist them to their own destruction.

So should we continue to sin so that God's grace may abound? May it never be!!!

However, that is exactly where the church of today is. They suggest that if anyone even attempts to keep God's Laws, as recored by Moses, they have turned away from God's grace. They have turned God's grace into liscenteousness (i.e. license to sin).

The church is apostate. Over its two thousand year history, the church has gradually moved away from the Law of Moses and turned it into sin. How ironic is that?

I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. When he says - "if you love me, keep my commandments", he is not referring to something new. He upheld all of Moses' Laws and demonstrated to us how to keep them properly, rather than adding to them as the Jews/pharisees had done (the traditions of men).

John said - If you say you love Him and do not keep His commandments, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

Think about it.

 

[Dave...]

Dave...
'apostasia' is not used in Jude. Remember that the titles were not part of the original text.

Right, I agree. I left the titles in because this particular passage didn't use the word you are looking for, but it is a description of apostacy, so I thought that it might be helpful. Jude is often overlooked in these discussions.

If we wanted to know what it meant to be in Christ, limiting our studies to verses that only used the phrase "born again" would be a severe handicap, wouldn't you agree?

You have a good starting place, though. ;-)

 

[dcookcan]

Right, I agree. I left the titles in because this particular passage didn't use the word you are looking for, but it is a description of apostacy, so I thought that it might be helpful. Jude is often overlooked in these discussions.

If we wanted to know what it meant to be in Christ, limiting our studies to verses that only used the phrase "born again" would be a severe handicap, wouldn't you agree?

You have a good starting place, though. ;-)

Yes, you are correct. If you want to know what it means to be in Christ, then you must look at all relevant references to that phrase. Born again is a separate issue and while it plays a part of being in Christ, it does not form the whole.

However, we are refering to the apostasy, which has huge significance in the final show down. Yet there are only two references to the actual greek word apostasia. If we want to understand, then we must take all references into account. Substituted titles are not scripture.

This is supposed to be a study of apologetics; are there no apologists here? I love searching out the meanings of the original words used in the scriptures. It is extremely insightful and rewarding. We could probably get into some great detail of apostasia if we looked at how the greek word may have been used to translate the Hebrew scriptures into the Septuagint. (I have not looked into this, but I might just do that tonight!)

 

[NRoof]

This is supposed to be a study of apologetics; are there no apologists here? I love searching out the meanings of the original words used in the scriptures. It is extremely insightful and rewarding. We could probably get into some great detail of apostasia if we looked at how the greek word may have been used to translate the Hebrew scriptures into the Septuagint. (I have not looked into this, but I might just do that tonight!)

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this. I needed a break and my need to separate myself from this forum altogether. Off my soap box and back to the topic at hand:

However, that is exactly where the church of today is. They suggest that if anyone even attempts to keep God's Laws, as recored by Moses, they have turned away from God's grace. They have turned God's grace into liscenteousness (i.e. license to sin).

I think I understand what you are saying and I think I understand why there is some resistance to what you are saying. In a nutshell there are people who believe that if you perfectly keep the law of Moses then you are OK in the eyes of God. This becomes salvation through works and is what I believe people think when this topic is brought up. I don't believe this is where you are coming from though.

Matthew 5
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It is clear that Jesus did not abolish the law but actually added to it. As long as we agree you are not saved because you obey the law but you obey the law because you are saved (if that makes sense) then we are in agreement. A study of Romans 6-7 may help here.

2 Timothy
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

I feel this is the where the apostate chruch comes from. It does fall somewhat in line with what you have stated. The question becomes what is sound doctrine. I have been to a seeker friendly chruch that taught the truth but only a portion of the truth. They did teach about the 10 commandments but also stated that it is only by Gods grace that you may be saved. So in a sense what you have said is correct in that they might have taken that to mean it is OK to sin as long as you ask for forgiveness.

This however is not the end of the story.
Basically they teach a watered down Gospel. They only teach about the good thing of God such as Love, Grace and Forgiveness. They conveniently leave out the part about sacrifice or anything else that may have negative connotations with it.

 

[dcookcan]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this. I needed a break and my need to separate myself from this forum altogether. Off my soap box and back to the topic at hand:

The great thing about forums is that you can take time to do research or simply take time off. No need to apologize.

I think I understand what you are saying and I think I understand why there is some resistance to what you are saying. In a nutshell there are people who believe that if you perfectly keep the law of Moses then you are OK in the eyes of God. This becomes salvation through works and is what I believe people think when this topic is brought up. I don't believe this is where you are coming from though.

Matthew 5
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It is clear that Jesus did not abolish the law but actually added to it. As long as we agree you are not saved because you obey the law but you obey the law because you are saved (if that makes sense) then we are in agreement. A study of Romans 6-7 may help here.

2 Timothy
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

I feel this is the where the apostate chruch comes from. It does fall somewhat in line with what you have stated. The question becomes what is sound doctrine. I have been to a seeker friendly chruch that taught the truth but only a portion of the truth. They did teach about the 10 commandments but also stated that it is only by Gods grace that you may be saved. So in a sense what you have said is correct in that they might have taken that to mean it is OK to sin as long as you ask for forgiveness.

This however is not the end of the story.
Basically they teach a watered down Gospel. They only teach about the good thing of God such as Love, Grace and Forgiveness. They conveniently leave out the part about sacrifice or anything else that may have negative connotations with it.

I think we may see eye to eye. I was saved by faith in Jesus, but I show my love for Him by keeping His commandments. (That is to say, I do my best to honour Him by keeping His commandments, but I am not perfect. After all, no one is without sin.)

 

[NRoof]

I think we may see eye to eye. I was saved by faith in Jesus, but I show my love for Him by keeping His commandments. (That is to say, I do my best to honour Him by keeping His commandments, but I am not perfect. After all, no one is without sin.)

Amen

 

[Steve]

IMHO:

Apostasy: The Episcopal Church USA
The United Methodist Church
The Presbyterian Church USA
The United Church of Christ
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
American Baptist Churches in the USA
The post- Vatican 2 Roman Catholic Church

Not necessarily in that order.

 

[PDoug]

Many Christians are well aware of the aspostasy that is to come before the anti-christ is revealed.

2Th 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostasy or falling away is a translation of the greek word apostasia. This word is only used twice in the entire NT. Therefore, the other reference is likely important to understand the truth of what will happen during the apostasy. (btw - the other reference is not what you may be thinking.)

I am interested in discussing this topic and I believe that people should be able to study and discern the truth for themselves; so, I will not state my opinion on the matter until people have a chance to be good bereans.

What is the apostasy?

The following is the apostasy which 2 Thessalonians 2:3 talks about:

Book of Enoch (Ethiopian Version)

Chapter 93

93.8 And after this, in the sixth week, all those who live in it will be blinded. And the hearts of them all, lacking wisdom, will sink into impiety. And in it, a man will ascend, and at its end the House of Sovereignty will be burnt with fire. And in it the whole race of the chosen root will be scattered.
93.9 And after this, in the seventh week, an apostate generation will arise. And many will be its deeds - but all its deeds will be apostasy.
93.10 And at its end, the Chosen Righteous, from the Eternal Plant of Righteousness, will be chosen, to whom will be given sevenfold teaching, concerning his whole creation.
91.7 And when iniquity, and sin, and blasphemy, and wrong, and all kinds of evil deeds increase, and when apostasy, wickedness, and uncleanness increase, a great punishment will come from Heaven upon all these. And the Holy Lord will come in anger, and in wrath, to execute judgment on the Earth.
91.8 In those days wrongdoing will be cut off at its roots, and the roots of iniquity, together with deceit, will be destroyed from under Heaven.
91.9 And all the idols of the nations will be given up, their towers will be burnt in fire, and they will remove them from the whole Earth. And they will be thrown down into the Judgment of Fire, and will be destroyed in anger, and in the severe judgment that is forever.
91.10 And the righteous will rise from sleep, and wisdom will rise, and will be given to them.
91.11 And after this the roots of iniquity will be cut off and the sword will destroy the sinners. The blasphemers will be cut off; in every place blasphemy will be destroyed by the sword.
91.12 And after this there will be another week; the eighth, that of righteousness, and a sword will be given to it so that the Righteous Judgment may be executed on those who do wrong, and the sinners will be handed over into the hands of the righteous.
91.13 And, at its end, they will acquire Houses because of their righteousness, and a House will be built for the Great King in Glory, forever.
91.14 And after this, in the ninth week, the Righteous Judgment will be revealed to the whole world. And all the deeds of the impious will vanish from the whole Earth. And the world will be written down for destruction and all men will look to the Path of Uprightness.
91.15 And, after this, in the tenth week, in the seventh part, there will be an Eternal Judgment that will be executed on the Watchers and the Great Eternal Heaven that will spring from the midst of the Angels.
91.16 And the First Heaven will vanish and pass away and a New Heaven will appear, and all the Powers of Heaven will shine forever, with sevenfold light.
91.17 And after this, there will be many weeks without number, forever, in goodness and in righteousness. And from then on sin will never again be mentioned.

The scripture points out a number of things. From the end of the sixth week (around the end of the early Church) the Church became apostate for a long time. It will only be a little before the end of this age of mankind, that the true Gospel will be preached - at which time, the bulk of the members of the true Church/Israel will be selected. Several scriptures such as the Epistle of BARNABAS 15:1-4 and the Gospel Of Bartholomew 1:17 predict that this age of mankind will end about 6,000 years from the time of Adam - which is around now. Therefore within a small number of years (about 30) the true Gospel will be preached throughout the world (though for the most part not by physical Jews), then the anti-Christ will appear to both test the converts, and execute judgment on the rest of the world for rejecting the Gospel. People will see signs and wonders that would have astounded even those in the early Church.

The question therefore is, what is the true Gospel? It is the same as it has always been. That a person is saved by having faith. What makes all the difference between someone following the true Gospel, and what most people are doing today, is that a person has a clear understanding about just how someone should go about having faith to begin with, and that person actually doing it. For some inexplicable reason, the Church became distracted from how to have faith properly. It supported the notion that someone can have faith anyway he pleases. This is the height of absurdity, and flies in the face of James 2:17 (NASB), which suggests that if a person does not have faith correctly, then that person's faith is dead! A person must have faith the way God says He should - which Christ outlined in Mark 11:22-24. Per Christ, having faith is: saying what you want, and believing that it will happen, or asking God for things and believing that you will receive them. Faith works by being persistent in excersing it over the things you want until you obtain them, and also growing it.