Are Christians Sinners?

[F345T]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

 

[eddif]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

Romans 6:14 kjv
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It is terrible that we sin. We are not to sin, but we are liars if we say we have no sin.

At pre flood mankind was under the dominion of sin (only evil continually.

God almost destroyed mankind.

The flood destroyed all but 8 persons. The dominion of sin was broken, and the evil continually was broken.

At Pentecost improvement came, but sin was still fought by born again people.

At the last trump we will be finally fully changed. Till that time we must confess our sins and believe in what Jesus accomplished.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[F345T]

we are liars if we say we have no sin.

I covered this in the OP.

 

[eddif]

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.

Maybe I am playing a wording game? I am sorry if I missed your point.

In the letters to the seven churches sin was identified in some Churches.

A call to repentance was given. If the guilty persons repented forgiveness was given.
(At All?) A problem is identified and a solution is given (here and other places).

Redemption of those overtaken in sin is described.

Still, I am sorry if my attempt to allow change is misunderstood.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Vinny37]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

[Are Christians Sinners?] If you asked, [Do Christians sin?], I’d say Yes, though not citing 1 Jhn.1:8-10, spoken I think to non-Christians in the church (note the Greek aorist tenses). But 1 Jhn.15-7 is surely to Christians, and implies sins, fellowship offences, being washed away in the background as we walk in the light.

That said, there are parts we play (eg Mt.6:12; 1 Pt.3:7): bad attitude towards others is itself sinful, and such sin can darken our walking in the light, and thus our prayers.

The answering of prayers does not presuppose our sinless perfection, however. Evangelistically we all began at least with our spirit crying out, “God forgive me”, the outsider voice begging to become an insider. We were evangelistic-sinners, non-family to Christ. We’ve moved through that door.

[Are Christians Sinners?] Too many Christians call themselves sinners in an unhealthy way. IMO, it’s far better to identify as saints—and that is what we are, howbeit God’s imperfectly holy people who sin—pastoral-sinners, family to Christ. Peter Gillquist wrote about the Obsession of Confession, referring to the [I’m a miserable sinner] complex among Christians. But we should encourage positive confession of who and what we are in Christ, seated in the heavenly places with him.

Though as Christians we follow Christ who never sinned, let us remember that he was the Second Adam, unlike us born without sin-bias, and never got into sin. As Jean Darnall said, we live life in the overlap between the First Adam and the Second Adam. As you put it, [Yes, we still stumble]. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a stumbler? Nothing could be further from the Truth. But we don’t always (if ever) follow as we ought.

PS: if you look back to Is.13:9, you’ll see that you misquoted, since copy/paste tends to drop the intended capitalisation, turning [LORD] into [Lord]: within English, William Tyndale raised the important distinction found in the Hebrew script. That is a big aside, but worth flagging up. In 1 Jhn.3:8 neither the Greek text nor the KJV says [willingly], and some but not I might accuse you of adding to God’s word on this. I see that you are not inflexible about handling the KJV, but be careful in your flexibility not to plant your tree within the canonical wood.

You do well to remind us that even the big names can spout folly—hopefully not often.

 

[F345T]

Maybe I am playing a wording game?

A little bit, yes.

The Bible's definition of a "sinner" and your definition are clearly different.

Would you like to explore that a bit?

 

[F345T]

I think I agree with most of what you're saying.

I have a real problem with this though.

Christ who never sinned, let us remember that he was the Second Adam, unlike us born without sin-bias, and never got into sin.

Please explain what you mean by this as it is a bit offensive and unbiblical if you're saying what you appear to be.

If you believe Jesus was incapable of sin, as you imply, your understanding of the Bible, and the NT specifically, is woefully inaccurate.

One of the biggest problems with modern Christians is that they are not aware, because they've been taught wrongly, that the 10 Commandments are for them. This is a topic for another thread, but it is relevant to the issue with Christians who are always miserable in their daily habitual sin.

Yes, of course I added (willingly) but I did it in parentheses and this is an internet discussion forum, not a published treatise on Scripture.

 

[electedbyHim]

I will agree we are not labeled "sinners".

We are made righteous in the eyes of the Lord.

However, we tend to fall into temptation and sin.

I can relate to this from Gotquestions.com


What does it mean that Paul was the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)?

In 1 Timothy 1:15, the apostle Paul summed up the gospel of God’s grace: “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief” (NKJV). The magnitude of the gift he had gained in Christ was best understood by Paul when set before the dismal backdrop of his own deep depravity. And so, with humble gratitude, Paul accepted the title “chief of sinners.”

One Bible commentator describes the grace of salvation as “the gift of God. He gives it ‘without money and without price.’ It is His munificent, magnificent gift in Christ Jesus, to the very chiefest of sinners” (Exell, J., ed., Biblical Illustrator, Vol. 5, entry for Acts 28:28, Baker Book House, 1975).

The word “chief” in 1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV, KJV) is a translation of the Greek term protos, meaning “first, leading, or ranking above all others.” It is also rendered “foremost” (ESV), “worst” (NIV), “worst of them” (CSB), and “worst of them all” (NLT). Paul saw himself as the chiefest, highest-ranking, worst of all sinners. A sinner is someone whose life and actions are contrary or in rebellion to the will and laws of God. Just before his conversion, “Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord’s followers” (Acts 9:1, NLT).

Paul said, “I am chief,” not “I was chief of sinners.” As an apostle, he never strayed from the heart of the gospel—that “God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners” (Romans 5:8, NLT). God’s salvation was always intended for sinners (Matthew 1:21; Mark 2:17). Paul kept his past depravity and ongoing corruption at the forefront of his mind because he saw it as an essential companion to the full apprehension of grace.

Paul testified to the church in Corinth, “For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:9–10). To the Ephesians, he said, “Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ” (Ephesians 3:8). The more we comprehend the weight and extent of our sinfulness, the better we can grasp the magnitude and scope of God’s forgiveness and grace at work in our lives.

When we recognize and remember the truth about ourselves—our old way of life with our weaknesses and failures, our lack of hope and purpose, and our utter helplessness apart from God—we remain exceedingly humble and grateful for what Christ has done for us. Like Paul, we rejoice and “thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength to do his work. He considered me trustworthy and appointed me to serve him, even though I used to blaspheme the name of Christ. . . . But God had mercy on me because I did it in ignorance and unbelief. Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:12–14, NLT).

We don’t beat ourselves up in self-defeating condemnation (Romans 8:1); rather, we give praise, glory, and honor to God for His generous gifts of mercy (1 Timothy 1:16), grace (Ephesians 3:7; 4:7), peace with God (Romans 5:1), membership in the family of God (Ephesians 2:19), and eternal life in His presence (1 John 2:25).

Some of us may have started out like the Pharisee in Jesus’ parable, so profoundly unaware of our sinfulness and need of salvation that we prayed, “I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers” (Luke 18:11, NLT). But, eventually, we ended up like the humble tax collector who “would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’” (Luke 18:13, ESV).

Paul called himself “chief of sinners” because he, like the tax collector, was acutely aware of his sinfulness and understood how much that sinfulness had cost his Savior. This self-identification is the discovery of every person whose eyes have been opened, whose conscience has been awakened, and whose heart has been pricked by the Holy Spirit. It is the humble posture of every believer who acknowledges he is utterly helpless and dependent on God for salvation (Romans 5:6). It is the admission we all must make: “Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the chief.”

 

[F345T]

I will agree we are not labeled "sinners".

We are made righteous in the eyes of the Lord.

However, we tend to fall into temptation and sin.

I can relate to this from Gotquestions.com


What does it mean that Paul was the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)?
In 1 Timothy 1:15, the apostle Paul summed up the gospel of God’s grace: “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief” (NKJV). The magnitude of the gift he had gained in Christ was best understood by Paul when set before the dismal backdrop of his own deep depravity. And so, with humble gratitude, Paul accepted the title “chief of sinners.”

One Bible commentator describes the grace of salvation as “the gift of God. He gives it ‘without money and without price.’ It is His munificent, magnificent gift in Christ Jesus, to the very chiefest of sinners” (Exell, J., ed., Biblical Illustrator, Vol. 5, entry for Acts 28:28, Baker Book House, 1975).

The word “chief” in 1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV, KJV) is a translation of the Greek term protos, meaning “first, leading, or ranking above all others.” It is also rendered “foremost” (ESV), “worst” (NIV), “worst of them” (CSB), and “worst of them all” (NLT). Paul saw himself as the chiefest, highest-ranking, worst of all sinners. A sinner is someone whose life and actions are contrary or in rebellion to the will and laws of God. Just before his conversion, “Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord’s followers” (Acts 9:1, NLT).

Paul said, “I am chief,” not “I was chief of sinners.” As an apostle, he never strayed from the heart of the gospel—that “God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners” (Romans 5:8, NLT). God’s salvation was always intended for sinners (Matthew 1:21; Mark 2:17). Paul kept his past depravity and ongoing corruption at the forefront of his mind because he saw it as an essential companion to the full apprehension of grace.

Paul testified to the church in Corinth, “For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:9–10). To the Ephesians, he said, “Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ” (Ephesians 3:8). The more we comprehend the weight and extent of our sinfulness, the better we can grasp the magnitude and scope of God’s forgiveness and grace at work in our lives.

When we recognize and remember the truth about ourselves—our old way of life with our weaknesses and failures, our lack of hope and purpose, and our utter helplessness apart from God—we remain exceedingly humble and grateful for what Christ has done for us. Like Paul, we rejoice and “thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength to do his work. He considered me trustworthy and appointed me to serve him, even though I used to blaspheme the name of Christ. . . . But God had mercy on me because I did it in ignorance and unbelief. Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:12–14, NLT).

We don’t beat ourselves up in self-defeating condemnation (Romans 8:1); rather, we give praise, glory, and honor to God for His generous gifts of mercy (1 Timothy 1:16), grace (Ephesians 3:7; 4:7), peace with God (Romans 5:1), membership in the family of God (Ephesians 2:19), and eternal life in His presence (1 John 2:25).

Some of us may have started out like the Pharisee in Jesus’ parable, so profoundly unaware of our sinfulness and need of salvation that we prayed, “I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers” (Luke 18:11, NLT). But, eventually, we ended up like the humble tax collector who “would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’” (Luke 18:13, ESV).

Paul called himself “chief of sinners” because he, like the tax collector, was acutely aware of his sinfulness and understood how much that sinfulness had cost his Savior. This self-identification is the discovery of every person whose eyes have been opened, whose conscience has been awakened, and whose heart has been pricked by the Holy Spirit. It is the humble posture of every believer who acknowledges he is utterly helpless and dependent on God for salvation (Romans 5:6). It is the admission we all must make: “Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the chief.”

Paul was a "sinner" prior to his conversion, and one of the very worst.

GotQuestions is taking a single verse and declaring that it covers the entire Biblical definition of a term.

It does not.

As I have posted a number of verses that declare what God really thinks of "sinners", we must always take the entire Bible's teaching as doctrine on any topic and not run wild with a single verse.

Again, if all Christians are the Bible's definition of a sinner (God's definition), then God would never hear a single prayer and no professed Christian in the entire world would be a genuine Christian (follower of Christ) as Christ was absolutely not a "sinner".

Can you accept the notion that Christ was a "sinner", electedbyhim ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Paul was a "sinner" prior to his conversion, and one of the very worst.

GotQuestions is taking a single verse and declaring that it covers the entire Biblical definition of a term.

It does not.

As I have posted a number of verses that declare what God really thinks of "sinners", we must always take the entire Bible's teaching as doctrine on any topic and not run wild with a single verse.

Again, if all Christians are the Bible's definition of a sinner (God's definition), then God would never hear a single prayer and no professed Christian in the entire world would be a genuine Christian (follower of Christ) as Christ was absolutely not a "sinner".

Can you accept the notion that Christ was a "sinner", electedbyhim ?

Christ was sinless.

The point of the article...

Paul called himself “chief of sinners” because he, like the tax collector, was acutely aware of his sinfulness and understood how much that sinfulness had cost his Savior. This self-identification is the discovery of every person whose eyes have been opened, whose conscience has been awakened, and whose heart has been pricked by the Holy Spirit. It is the humble posture of every believer who acknowledges he is utterly helpless and dependent on God for salvation (Romans 5:6). It is the admission we all must make: “Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the chief.”

Which I can relate to.

 

[F345T]

Christ was sinless.

The point of the article...



Which I can relate to.

We are not incapable of obedience.

Christ would not teach a doctrine that we are unable to perform.

And Christ was 100% capable of sinning, just as Heb. 4:15 makes clear.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted (exactly) like as we are, yet without sin."
It was exactly the same for Christ as it is for us.
"God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Cor. 10:13

We are able to keep from sinning. We all stumble often, but we are physically/spiritually capable of avoiding sin. And Christ did just that.

Those who live in daily habitual sin are sinners. That does not describe a True Christian and God will simply not tolerate such a person as the verses in the OP, and many more, prove.

 

[Vinny37]

I think I agree with most of what you're saying.

I have a real problem with this though.

Please explain what you mean by this as it is a bit offensive and unbiblical if you're saying what you appear to be.

If you believe Jesus was incapable of sin, as you imply, your understanding of the Bible, and the NT specifically, is woefully inaccurate.

One of the biggest problems with modern Christians is that they are not aware, because they've been taught wrongly, that the 10 Commandments are for them. This is a topic for another thread, but it is relevant to the issue with Christians who are always miserable in their daily habitual sin.

Yes, of course I added (willingly) but I did it in parentheses and this is an internet discussion forum, not a published treatise on Scripture.

I guess that I am unaware of what I appear to be saying, or at least that I am sadly oblivious to its offensive unbiblicality. Paul taught what some call Adam Christology, namely that God the son as a human being, was born into humanity without man’s history and inclination to sin. We are not. As the Second, the Last (εσχατος), Adam, Jesus established a new humanity in his likeliness. However, that new humanity comes from those born of Adam’s line, those prone to sin. Conversion, birth into the new humanity, does not make us impervious to sin, but makes us holy and gives us access to the spirit of holiness. As Christians, we share both sinful and sinless orbs, living life in the overlap between Adam 1 and Adam 2. If it’s not inevitable that we will sin, it’s at least almost inevitable that we will, in attitude if not in action.

Could Jesus have sinned? IMO, Yes, real humanity—but he never did. I favour Antiochene Christology.

I apparently deem the Ten Words (Decalogue) differently to you—that’s as you say another story. They were core to the Sinai Covenant, and integrated what I deem to be global commands, ethical imperatives always valid within & without that covenant. I’d say to Christians that the Ten Stipulations per se are NOT for them, and wonder if you meant to include the word NOT.

When inserting into Scripture, I merely advise caution. Some EVV use parentheses to other purposes (eg amplification of a given word; canonical asides). You have inserted your noncanonical interpretation into canon, which could mislead some readers. Square brackets could improve, as being more standard for personal additions to text. I’d suggest leaving the translation as is, and adding your ideas after or before the citation, that’s all. I’ve heard too many prophesy their own thoughts as if God were speaking.

Incidentally, that God has sometimes hated situational sin enough to kill the sinners, does not mean that he hates sinners, Christian or otherwise. Ac.5:9 does not imply that God will kill every Christian who sins, but does imply that in certain situations their death may be needed to preserve his work. Their premature death means their spiritual failure in this life, but not God’s lack of love for them beyond this life. Those thrown away from the Vine (Jhn.15:6)—sinful Christians—were not sentenced to hell, only to the scrapheap of uselessness. God so loved sinners, that he gave his one of a kind son to die for them (Jhn.3:16).

 

[electedbyHim]

We are not incapable of obedience.

Christ would not teach a doctrine that we are unable to perform.

And Christ was 100% capable of sinning, just as Heb. 4:15 makes clear.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted (exactly) like as we are, yet without sin."
It was exactly the same for Christ as it is for us.
"God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Cor. 10:13

We are able to keep from sinning. We all stumble often, but we are physically/spiritually capable of avoiding sin. And Christ did just that.

Those who live in daily habitual sin are sinners. That does not describe a True Christian and God will simply not tolerate such a person as the verses in the OP, and many more, prove.

I agree, a true Christian cannot practice or live a lifestyle of sin.

Nevertheless, Christians can fall into sin daily sometimes.

 

[F345T]

I’d say to Christians that the Ten Stipulations per se are NOT for them, and wonder if you meant to include the word NOT.

Then you clearly don't understand that Christ created them, taught them, obeyed them and His closest followers, who understood much better than you or I, followed them even after His death.

So there's a real problem with your understanding in that regard as Christians are "followers of Christ" and Christ taught and obeyed the 10 Commandments and John states that we are to do the same (1 Jn. 2:6). But that's for another thread.

I don't subscribe to Paul teaching anything at all that contradicts Scripture as a whole and the entire foundation of Christ's overcoming and sacrifice is founded upon the fact that He was 100% capable of sin yet overcame ALL temptation to do so. If Christ was tempted "just as we are", which is what the Scriptures teach, then He was fully capable of sin and that is how He defeated death, and the curse, in the flesh. And it is paramount to the Gospel story.

I'm not concerned with your preferences about parentheses or not, God is not angry with me for anything I have written anywhere. This is a discussion, it is not formal, and a number of things you are preaching are unbiblical so it matters not how formal you wish to come off when you're not even representing Scripture accurately. Not that you would be a Pharisee, but that is much like their pompous demeanor in acting and appearing very formal and authoritative while teaching heresy and being hypocritical in their daily actions.

 

[F345T]

I agree, a true Christian cannot practice or live a lifestyle of sin.

Nevertheless, Christians can fall into sin daily sometimes.

If they're attempting to walk upright in the Spirit and they stumble, that does not place them in the definition of "sinner" that the Bible presents in the verses in the OP.

If God can't hear "sinners", then Christians cannot be sinners.

 

[Vinny37]

Then you clearly don't understand that Christ created them, taught them, obeyed them and His closest followers, who understood much better than you or I, followed them even after His death.

So there's a real problem with your understanding in that regard as Christians are "followers of Christ" and Christ taught and obeyed the 10 Commandments and John states that we are to do the same (1 Jn. 2:6). But that's for another thread.

I don't subscribe to Paul teaching anything at all that contradicts Scripture as a whole and the entire foundation of Christ's overcoming and sacrifice is founded upon the fact that He was 100% capable of sin yet overcame ALL temptation to do so. If Christ was tempted "just as we are", which is what the Scriptures teach, then He was fully capable of sin and that is how He defeated death, and the curse, in the flesh. And it is paramount to the Gospel story.

I'm not concerned with your preferences about parentheses or not, God is not angry with me for anything I have written anywhere. This is a discussion, it is not formal, and a number of things you are preaching are unbiblical so it matters not how formal you wish to come off when you're not even representing Scripture accurately. Not that you would be a Pharisee, but that is much like their pompous demeanor in acting and appearing very formal and authoritative while teaching heresy and being hypocritical in their daily actions.

[Then you clearly don't understand that Christ created them, taught them, obeyed them and His closest followers, who understood much better than you or I, followed them even after His death.]

Ah well, clearly I do not.

 

[electedbyHim]

If they're attempting to walk upright in the Spirit and they stumble, that does not place them in the definition of "sinner" that the Bible presents in the verses in the OP.

If God can't hear "sinners", then Christians cannot be sinners.

The fact remains, Paul was still chief of sinners.

Oh wretched man that I am.

 

[F345T]

[Then you clearly don't understand that Christ created them, taught them, obeyed them and His closest followers, who understood much better than you or I, followed them even after His death.]

Ah well, clearly I do not.

Ah, let me help.

Review these closely and you'll see what I'm pointing out in Scripture.
Absolutely everything was created by Christ.
Jn. 1:1,3,14
Christ taught the Decalogue.
Matt. 5:19-20
Matt. 23:1-3
Christ obeyed it all.
John 15:10
Christ's followers obeyed it after His death.
Luke 23:54-56

Cheers. Back to the current thread.

 

[F345T]

The fact remains, Paul was still chief of sinners.

Oh wretched man that I am.

Again, you're using one single verse to build an entire doctrine that contradicts the rest of Scripture on the topic.

The fact remains, God cannot hear the prayers of sinners.

God's words, not mine.

Therefore, your interpretation of the "Chief of sinners" verse is a misinterpretation.

 

[electedbyHim]

Again, you're using one single verse to build an entire doctrine that contradicts the rest of Scripture on the topic.

The fact remains, God cannot hear the prayers of sinners.

God's words, not mine.

Therefore, your interpretation of the "Chief of sinners" verse is a misinterpretation.

I am not building a doctrine of any sort. I am saying I can relate with Paul.


PreceptAustin.com

Spurgeon on foremost of sinners - “Despair’s head is cut off and stuck on a pole by the salvation of ‘the chief of sinners.’ No man can now say that he is too great a sinner to be saved, because the chief of sinners was saved eighteen hundred years ago. If the ringleader, the chief of the gang, has been washed in the precious blood, and is now in heaven, why not I? Why not you?” (Quoted by David Guzik - Enduring Word Bible Commentary 1 Timothy 1)

Donald Guthrie points out that "Paul never got away from the fact that Christian salvation was intended for sinners, and the more he increased his grasp of the magnitude of God's grace, the more he deepened the consciousness of his own naturally sinful state, until he could write of whom I am chief." (See The Pastoral Epistles: An Introduction and Commentary)

W E Vine on foremost - Though the word prōtos, first, sometimes applied to time, here it applies to degree. There was no mock modesty with the apostle in making this statement, nor was he making a comparison between himself and his unbelieving fellow nationals; nor, again, was he indulging in mere rhetoric. The contemplation of his sins and the extent to which, before his conversion, he had missed the true purpose of his being, leads him to make this statement in all sincerity and humility. Paul was a man of high ideals, and the higher the ideal a man sets before him, the more deeply will he feel the extent of his failure to attain to it. There is always a gulf between the character of Christ Himself and that of His most devoted followers. So fully did the apostle appreciate this, that he does not say “of whom I was chief,” but uses the present tense. Noticeable in this respect is the special stress upon the personal pronoun “I”; both its very insertion as well as its position, last in the sentence, make it peculiarly emphatic (Collected Writings of W.E. Vine)

THOUGHT - Are you growing in your awareness of your sin and the offense it is to the holiness of God? Or are you growing complacent in your attitude toward sin, especially those little "secret sins" that keep coming up like weeds in the garden of your heart? Dear follower of Christ. Look out! Backsliding can occur subtly and seductively!

Gregory Brown adds a couple of good application questions - How can we protect ourselves from becoming desensitized to sin? How have you experienced both a progression and a decrease of sensitivity to sin and why?

MacDonald "Notice that the title “chief of sinners” is not given to a man steeped in idolatry or immorality, but rather to a deeply religious man, one who had been brought up in an orthodox Jewish home! His sin was doctrinal; he did not accept the word of God concerning the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rejection of the Son of God is the greatest of sins.

When one compares the chronology of similar statements by Paul, it is clear that as Christ increased, Paul decreased (cf Jn 3:30+), as he grew in the grace and knowledge of his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, (2Pe 3:18+), the depth of the sin he had been completely forgiven became more apparent (and this should be the pattern in our lives beloved) (dates below are approximate). For context most date Paul's conversion at 34-35AD, so when he refers to himself as the foremost of sinners he has been following Christ for almost 30 years! Below we have the progression of humility as one grows in grace...

• 55AD 1 Corinthians 15:9+ For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
• 61AD Ephesians 3:8+ To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
• 63-66AD 1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

The longer and closer a person walks with Jesus Christ, the more he or she becomes aware of the depths of their sinful nature, which in turn drives them to a greater sense of horror when they do sin against Him (because we are sinning against light), which in turn gives a deeper appreciation of the amazing mercy and grace of God! I speak from personal experience of walking with Jesus 35 years!

Alexander Maclaren said, “The sign of growing perfection is the growing consciousness of imperfection.... The more you become like Christ the more you will find out your unlikeness to Him” (From sermon "Chief of Sinners" on 1 Timothy 1:15)

C S Lewis - “When a man is getting better, he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands his own badness less and less” (Quoted by Nathan Hatch in Christianity Today , Vol 23, No 11, page 15 - article entitled "Purging the Poisoned Well Within" - Blunting the Gospel. The Gospel demands humility -- it brings us to our knees.)