are the Catholics wrong?

[Christ_empowered]

I have Catholic envy. Not that I'm gung ho about converting, its just...

1) the church has been around for 2,000 years (2) they don't really have "church splits." I mean, there was the Reformation, yeah, but...since then, its been pretty stable. (3) I read on a Catholic website that they consider themselves a "bastion of light" (I think that's right) in a "world of darkness." OK. I did read some Pope John Paul II paper on The culture of death, which was fascinating, I'll give them that much. This sort of leads into my final thought...(4) They've preserved a sense of the sacred. Yes, I know...Vatican II was a big deal, yeah, but overall...I think they're less influenced by the surrounding culture than most Protestant denominations.

I just don't get Catholic beliefs, that's all. I mean...Saints? Like, Cosmic Buddies? The Rosary?

Are they wrong? And...are they so wrong that it messes up any hope of salvation through the church? Oh, yeah...thought (5) Christian life is experienced in more of a group setting in Catholicism. Back in the 19th century, Emile Durkheim, the Grand-pappy of Sociologists everywhere, wrote Suicide, a book about the social factors that lead to self-murder. Anyway, Catholics and Jews had lower rates than Protestants. Jews don't have specific rules against suicide. Catholics, of course, do. The difference was that both catholics and Jews had tighter family and community bonds, lower divorce rates. Protestants tended to be more individualistic, which I think has gone to a kind of extreme in 21st century, US culture...or maybe I'm wrong.

 

[jasonc]

I have Catholic envy. Not that I'm gung ho about converting, its just...

1) the church has been around for 2,000 years (2) they don't really have "church splits." I mean, there was the Reformation, yeah, but...since then, its been pretty stable. (3) I read on a Catholic website that they consider themselves a "bastion of light" (I think that's right) in a "world of darkness." OK. I did read some Pope John Paul II paper on The culture of death, which was fascinating, I'll give them that much. This sort of leads into my final thought...(4) They've preserved a sense of the sacred. Yes, I know...Vatican II was a big deal, yeah, but overall...I think they're less influenced by the surrounding culture than most Protestant denominations.

I just don't get Catholic beliefs, that's all. I mean...Saints? Like, Cosmic Buddies? The Rosary?

Are they wrong? And...are they so wrong that it messes up any hope of salvation through the church? Oh, yeah...thought (5) Christian life is experienced in more of a group setting in Catholicism. Back in the 19th century, Emile Durkheim, the Grand-pappy of Sociologists everywhere, wrote Suicide, a book about the social factors that lead to self-murder. Anyway, Catholics and Jews had lower rates than Protestants. Jews don't have specific rules against suicide. Catholics, of course, do. The difference was that both catholics and Jews had tighter family and community bonds, lower divorce rates. Protestants tended to be more individualistic, which I think has gone to a kind of extreme in 21st century, US culture...or maybe I'm wrong.

if you like being told what to think, what to believe because we are the only ones to be able to read it, then yes they are right. not for me. I came out of that. are they wrong on everything? no, but just because its old doesn't make it right. it wasn't that long ago that that church would kill jews, protestants etc. not that the later were always innocent.

 

[williamt]

I have Catholic envy. Not that I'm gung ho about converting, its just...

1) the church has been around for 2,000 years (2) they don't really have "church splits." I mean, there was the Reformation, yeah, but...since then, its been pretty stable.

According to Apostolic succession? And they do have splits, way before the Reformation:

Pelagianism was condemned. Six years after the council of Carthage a general council of African Churches reaffirmed the anathemas of 412 AD. Zosimus sided with Pelagius in 412, he wrote a letter condemning the anathema of Carthage. Of course having the support of Scripture, the leaders of the Carthagian Council disregarded the Bishop and his letter. Philip Schaff noted church historian observes, "This temporary favor of the bishop of Rome towards the Pelagian heresy is a significant presage of the indulgence of later popes for pelagianizing tendencies". It was these later "pelagianizing tendencies" that lead to the works-righteousness advocated by the bishop of Rome that later led to the Roman Catholic belief system. This was a pivotal moment in church history. Cornelius Otto Jansen like Martin Luther believed the early Church of Rome departed from its position that all of life was by the grace of God. And like Augustine Jansen taught that man's spirit was dead in sin, and therefore needed to be regenerated. Jansen understood that this was something that happened to man by God's grace and not something man made happen by his faith. In 1713 Pope Clement the XI issued a Papal Bull denouncing over 100 statements, many of which were actual quotes of Augustine. A Church that once sided with Augustine now sided with Pelagius.

Read More at :https://www.christforums.org/forum/...carthage-to-investigate-pelagianism-may-1-418

They've preserved a sense of the sacred.

What is more sacred than Scripture? Sola Scriptura?

God bless,
William

 

[Deborah13]

Are they wrong? And...are they so wrong that it messes up any hope of salvation through the church? Oh, yeah...thought (5) Christian life is experienced in more of a group setting in Catholicism.

RCC doctrine, right or wrong, can only be discussed in a one on one debate format, so it's kind of pointless to try to answer your questions here.
They are not the oldest church. The oldest, is true catholic church and doctrines are found in the pages of the NT. If it were a continuance of that church, it wouldn't look like it does and the doctrines would be the same as the doctrines in the NT.

 

[The_Epsicle]

Doctrine notwithstanding since we can't discuss it here. I think they were the true church for about the first 1,000 years but then the greek orthodox split happened and the pope was elevated to a position never imagined by the founders of the RCC, then we have 500 years until the reformation sets things right. The only reason we have so many denominations today and didn't back then is because back then it was well accepted there was one church which was the Catholic Church, anyone who went against what they said had to answer to them. Now there isn't a central authority of Christianity except God, so we have to use a little more sense to tell the wolves from the sheep. That's all I'm gonna say and I hope I didn't cross any boundaries with the Romans.

 

[jasonc]

Doctrine notwithstanding since we can't discuss it here. I think they were the true church for about the first 1,000 years but then the greek orthodox split happened and the pope was elevated to a position never imagined by the founders of the RCC, then we have 500 years until the reformation sets things right. The only reason we have so many denominations today and didn't back then is because back then it was well accepted there was one church which was the Catholic Church, anyone who went against what they said had to answer to them. Now there isn't a central authority of Christianity except God, so we have to use a little more sense to tell the wolves from the sheep. That's all I'm gonna say and I hope I didn't cross any boundaries with the Romans.

we have ROMANS on this forum. eek they might kill us?lol

 

[Eugene]

This thread was moved from "Christian Talk & Advice" to this "End Times" forum due to ToS rules.
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is allowed only in the One on One Debate and End Times forums. (ToS 2.2)

 

[Brother Mike]

I have Catholic envy. Not that I'm gung ho about converting, its just...

1) the church has been around for 2,000 years (2) they don't really have "church splits." I mean, there was the Reformation, yeah, but...since then, its been pretty stable. (3) I read on a Catholic website that they consider themselves a "bastion of light" (I think that's right) in a "world of darkness." OK. I did read some Pope John Paul II paper on The culture of death, which was fascinating, I'll give them that much. This sort of leads into my final thought...(4) They've preserved a sense of the sacred. Yes, I know...Vatican II was a big deal, yeah, but overall...I think they're less influenced by the surrounding culture than most Protestant denominations.

I just don't get Catholic beliefs, that's all. I mean...Saints? Like, Cosmic Buddies? The Rosary?

Are they wrong? And...are they so wrong that it messes up any hope of salvation through the church? Oh, yeah...thought (5) Christian life is experienced in more of a group setting in Catholicism. Back in the 19th century, Emile Durkheim, the Grand-pappy of Sociologists everywhere, wrote Suicide, a book about the social factors that lead to self-murder. Anyway, Catholics and Jews had lower rates than Protestants. Jews don't have specific rules against suicide. Catholics, of course, do. The difference was that both catholics and Jews had tighter family and community bonds, lower divorce rates. Protestants tended to be more individualistic, which I think has gone to a kind of extreme in 21st century, US culture...or maybe I'm wrong.

You have to weigh the good and bad here.

PRO: Praying Catholic
Catholic prayer consist of something memorized, you count beads and though it's lengthy, you can get it all down in under 15 minutes. It saves time, and is efficient.

CON: Praying in Spirit (spirit)
Praying in tongues sometimes can take you a few hours if you follow the direction of the Holy Spirit, and you run out of mouth spit after an hour and have to find a drink.

PRO: Prayer not answered, Catholic.
Mary is mostly busy, so you really don't have to stand in faith believing the prayer will be heard. You know it was not heard, so nothing else to expect or worry about. Just go around waiting for the chips to fall where they may, then after the dust settles, just say the terrible mess your life is in was the will of God. We just don't understand God's mysterious ways, and the outcome always determines God's will.

CON: Prayer Answered every time:
To not be Catholic, means we pray according to the will of God, knowing and having confidence God heard us, and the petitions we desire are always sent. This often means an attack from the devil to convince you that God did not really promise this, or Your not good enough, or Worse, make it look like in the natural things are getting worse. This takes casting down thoughts, and standing in faith not moving which is just a whole lot of work.

Pro: Catholic, Scriptures are right, but so is everything else we want to believe.
Being Catholic, you don't need to be concerned about being correct according to scripture. Whatever creed, or thing made up by the Roman Catholic Church is just as scriptural as the Bible itself. You might even get away with making up your own stuff and nobody will look at you funny. This relieves the burden to study the Word to show yourself approved unto God and the pressure is taken off you to be a good workman.

Con: Real believers are Solo Scriptura only. The Word is the only authority from just a mere 66 books.
As a non-Catholic you just can't make stuff up. That means you have to be right, or at least close, and others are always looking at you funny if you believe different than they do. You also only get 66 books with just a few 1,000 pages. Pretty limiting.

Pro: Baptism. Catholics only sprinkle water.
If your Baptized Catholic, it's just a sprinkle of water and BAM, your done. That means you most likely won't have to change your clothes or stand around other wet folks. It's quick and easy. Avoid those churches that Pour.

Con: Baptism by immersion.
Was just reading an article where 3 folks died during baptism using immersion. It was in the ocean and a big wave came and took them away. This is not the first reported Baptism fatality. Did I mention sharks, and flesh eating bacteria found in lakes? If done in a big tub at church, one has to wonder just how clean that water is, and what disease did that last homeless person have that went before you?

Pro: Holy Water.
Catholics have Holy Water. There has not been one recorded vampire outbreak in any Catholic churches. Let's face it, Catholics are more prepared for the Vampire apocalypse than the rest of us. That should give any Catholic a sense of security.

Con: No Holy Water.
Vampire fodder buddy. Think about it...........................

Mike

 

[The_Epsicle]

Pro: Holy Water.
Catholics have Holy Water. There has not been one recorded vampire outbreak in any Catholic churches. Let's face it, Catholics are more prepared for the Vampire apocalypse than the rest of us. That should give any Catholic a sense of security.

Con: No Holy Water.
Vampire fodder buddy. Think about it...........................

 

[reba]

Catholic have splits... they are kept under the RCC umbrella..

Also 1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I have just noticed this thread is not about end times... so it will be move to a more suitable location...

 

[Corn Pop]

Hail mary when Jesus said who is my mother and brothers, then confess my sins to a priest who is but a mere man who cannot forgive sins while being told its dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ while the pope sits on his throne covered in gold as high priest.

Jesus forgave sins directly to people so there is need for priest mediator except The Christ himself as High Priest.

But Jesus did become a curse and he did become sin. I guess it depends how dangerous Jesus really is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just don't get Catholic beliefs, that's all. I mean...Saints? Like, Cosmic Buddies? The Rosary?

It's been around for hundreds of years because it appeals to the masses.

 

[Sinthesis]

It seems to me most criticism of the RCC has to do with style instead of substance. Stiff necked people don't like any semblance of authority. Yet even though Christian, we've all probably accepted something doctrinally wrong somewhere. The question is are we too wrong, so that Jesus doesn't recognize us as His sheep? It's not my call, but I suppose false doctrine promotes 'good' works of the type that won't last.

1Co 3:11 - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

As much as it may offend some people, the RCC has certainly lasted. Perhaps this form of Christianity is simply well suited to promote the work of Christ in certain environments.

 

[Malachi]

As much as it may offend some people, the RCC has certainly lasted. Perhaps this form of Christianity is simply well suited to promote the work of Christ in certain environments.

Just because something has *lasted* has no merit in and of itself. Sin and idolatry have also *lasted* since Eden. So what. How can any system *promote the work of Christ* when it strongly opposes the true Gospel and Bible truth. Study the Council of Trent and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Just because something has *lasted* has no merit in and of itself. Sin and idolatry have also *lasted* since Eden. So what. How can any system *promote the work of Christ* when it strongly opposes the true Gospel and Bible truth. Study the Council of Trent and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Christ is preached in the RCC.
That's all that matters.
Some get saved in that church and some get saved coming out of it.
Either way, people get saved and that's all that matters.
Philippians 1:15-18:

 

[turnorburn]

Found this last night..

The Inquisition proved how Catholicism will react when it has possession of absolute power. Is it any wonder that in the 1880s, Dr. H. Grattan Guinness preached the following:

I see the great Apostasy, I see the desolation of Christendom, I see the smoking ruins, I see the reign of monsters; I see those vice-gods, that Gregory VII, that Innocent III, that Boniface Vlll, that Alexander Vl, that Gregory XIII, that Pius IX; I see their long succession, I hear their insufferable blasphemies, I see their abominable lives; I see them worshipped by blinded generations, bestowing hollow benedictions, bartering away worthless promises of heaven; I see their liveried slaves, their shaven priests, their celibate confessors; I see the infamous confessional, the ruined women, the murdered innocents; I hear the lying absolutions, the dying groans; I hear the cries of the victims; I hear the anathemas, the curses, the thunders of the interdicts; I see the racks, the dungeons, the stakes; I see that inhuman Inquisition, those fires of Smithfield, those butcheries of St. Bartholomew, that Spanish Armada, those unspeakable dragonnades, that endless train of wars, that dreadful multitude of massacres. I see it all, and in the name of the ruin it has brought in the Church and in the world, in the name of the truth it has denied, the temple it has defiled, the God it has blasphemed, the souls it has destroyed; in the name of the millions it has deluded, the millions it has slaughtered, the millions it has damned; with holy confessors, with noble reformers, with innumerable martyrs, with the saints of ages, I denounce it as the masterpiece of Satan, as the body and soul and essence of antichrist."P
The challenge I give to Bible believing Christians is to respect the heritage we have been given by those who suffered for Biblical truth, that we may be prepared to suffer ourselves. Ours is the generation that may yet again be afflicted for the faith once delivered to the saints. If such is to be our privilege, let us face our trials with this promise of our Lord fresh upon our hearts: "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:10}

The challenge I give to Roman Catholics is to take up the New Testament of the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit of God to speak to your hearts. If a Catholic remains skeptical about this brief treatise on the Inquisition, he is certainly welcome to examine for himself the record of history. If he remains unmoved by my conclusions, he is welcome to draw his own. But of far greater import is his need to examine the teachings of his church in the light of God's Word. Jesus leaves you with this warning: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." {John 12:48} You to whom the Bible was so accessible will not be able to plead ignorance in that terrible day of judgment.

http://www.mtc.org/inquis.html

In 1983 Ronald Reagan signed a Concordat with the Vatican which put us on a new road.. we will get to see first hand Catholicism when it has possession of absolute power..

tob

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Found this last night..

The Inquisition proved how Catholicism will react when it has possession of absolute power. Is it any wonder that in the 1880s, Dr. H. Grattan Guinness preached the following:

I see the great Apostasy, I see the desolation of Christendom, I see the smoking ruins, I see the reign of monsters; I see those vice-gods, that Gregory VII, that Innocent III, that Boniface Vlll, that Alexander Vl, that Gregory XIII, that Pius IX; I see their long succession, I hear their insufferable blasphemies, I see their abominable lives; I see them worshipped by blinded generations, bestowing hollow benedictions, bartering away worthless promises of heaven; I see their liveried slaves, their shaven priests, their celibate confessors; I see the infamous confessional, the ruined women, the murdered innocents; I hear the lying absolutions, the dying groans; I hear the cries of the victims; I hear the anathemas, the curses, the thunders of the interdicts; I see the racks, the dungeons, the stakes; I see that inhuman Inquisition, those fires of Smithfield, those butcheries of St. Bartholomew, that Spanish Armada, those unspeakable dragonnades, that endless train of wars, that dreadful multitude of massacres. I see it all, and in the name of the ruin it has brought in the Church and in the world, in the name of the truth it has denied, the temple it has defiled, the God it has blasphemed, the souls it has destroyed; in the name of the millions it has deluded, the millions it has slaughtered, the millions it has damned; with holy confessors, with noble reformers, with innumerable martyrs, with the saints of ages, I denounce it as the masterpiece of Satan, as the body and soul and essence of antichrist."P
The challenge I give to Bible believing Christians is to respect the heritage we have been given by those who suffered for Biblical truth, that we may be prepared to suffer ourselves. Ours is the generation that may yet again be afflicted for the faith once delivered to the saints. If such is to be our privilege, let us face our trials with this promise of our Lord fresh upon our hearts: "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:10}

The challenge I give to Roman Catholics is to take up the New Testament of the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit of God to speak to your hearts. If a Catholic remains skeptical about this brief treatise on the Inquisition, he is certainly welcome to examine for himself the record of history. If he remains unmoved by my conclusions, he is welcome to draw his own. But of far greater import is his need to examine the teachings of his church in the light of God's Word. Jesus leaves you with this warning: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." {John 12:48} You to whom the Bible was so accessible will not be able to plead ignorance in that terrible day of judgment.

http://www.mtc.org/inquis.html

In 1983 Ronald Reagan signed a Concordat with the Vatican which put us on a new road.. we will get to see first hand Catholicism when it has possession of absolute power..

tob

And what do you think we should do?
Eliminate the RCC?
I came out of the RCC.
Without it, where would all the Roman Catholics go?
To your church?
And what church is that?
I think they would all become Muslims.

 

[turnorburn]

And what do you think we should do?
Eliminate the RCC?
I came out of the RCC.
Without it, where would all the Roman Catholics go?
To your church?
And what church is that?
I think they would all become Muslims.

The title of this thread asks a question i posted my results, what you should do is that which the Lord leads you to do Rollo..

tob

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you turnorburn.
You are very nice.
I am not so nice.
Sorry.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The title of this thread asks a question i posted my results, what you should do is that which the Lord leads you to do Rollo..

tob

However, I did use Scripture in Post # 15 and you seemed to ignore that.
I was really wondering why you chose to ignore my post.
Maybe I just misunderstand.
It's easy to do that online.