ChevyRodeo
Member
Jesus died for our sins so we wouldn't have to. Explain.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Are we accountable for our sin?
- Thread starter ChevyRodeo
- Start date
quote: Chevyrodeo
Technically Chevy those born after the cross were never born in sin. Christ died for the Jews who were under the Law and the Gentiles were adopted into the family of God. The only sin that a man will be held accounted for will be the sin of unbelief.
Galatians 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Those who love the law for righteousness will raise their heads in outrage at this, so get ready, nevertheless it is true. The only ones that were forgiven of their sins were those before the cross. After the cross and resurrection sin in the flesh is not an issue, for we were raised with Christ in newness of life. The old man died at the cross and the new man lives.
Technically Chevy those born after the cross were never born in sin. Christ died for the Jews who were under the Law and the Gentiles were adopted into the family of God. The only sin that a man will be held accounted for will be the sin of unbelief.
Galatians 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Those who love the law for righteousness will raise their heads in outrage at this, so get ready, nevertheless it is true. The only ones that were forgiven of their sins were those before the cross. After the cross and resurrection sin in the flesh is not an issue, for we were raised with Christ in newness of life. The old man died at the cross and the new man lives.
archangel_300
Member
ChevyRodeo said:
God is perfectly just and perfectly righteous. Each time we sin by transgressing the law of God payment must be made because God is perfect in His system of justice. No sin that ever comes into existence, past/present/future from the smallest speck to the largest mountain goes unpunished before God otherwise God would not be perfectly just. The payment for sin is eternal death.
When God sent his son Jesus to come to earth to die for our sins what God was really doing was sending Himself as the perfect human substitute for sin. Jesus came to earth to not only physically die on the cross but to endure the wrath of God on my behalf as my perfect substitute. This means that all my sins that I have committed in my lifetime from birth to death have been placed upon Christ and He suffered equivalent amount to what I would have had to endure if I were to spend an eternity under God's wrath. The fact that Jesus died and rose again means that the penalty for my sin had been completely paid for and Jesus conquered not only physical death but eternal.
Now that my sin has been paid for the threat of eternal death no longer exists.
God says His plan is foolishness to our thinking. It makes no sense to me that the one I murdered* should come and die so that I might not be penalized for this crime. When this begins to make sense to us we are very close to understanding the greatest love; to lay down your life for your friends.ChevyRodeo said:
This love is hard to fathom, but in essence, God chose to save us rather than destroy us for being utterly sinful. He forgives us in order to love us as He had intended. We are a joy to Him and losing His joy was out of the question.
Like a parent who still loves their child regardless of their behavior.
Parents need to rejoice in the gift of their children for they get to know this love, this unconditional love that holds and embraces a child even when the child isn't sure they want to be held, or deserve to be held.
* I hold that I admit that I am capable of being equally deceitful in ALL ways, only by the grace of God do I regret my participation in sin; apart from God I would be utterly deceitful. It is only in Him that by His will I can look at my fellow man and say, "This is a child of God, whom He loves, and I must love them (not because I want to, but because the Holy Spirit reminds me that God loves them regardless of my opinion).
It's never about us and our will, it's about God and God's will for us; to love one another.
Danus
Member
ChevyRodeo said:
Several other threads in this section dealing with this as well on an ongoing basis. Two thoughts on this. Here is a very simplistic response.
Basically Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross because we can't afford it. God essentially created a path for righteousness for us that we can not obtain on our own to be in his presence. Why? because he loves us. John 3:16 is an excellent testament to this ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
There are two splits of thought on this. One is that our sins are covered as far as God is concerned with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (Imputed righteousness)
The other, is that we must pay penance for our sins while we are here and I guess earn salvation through the grace of God. (Infused righteousness) I can't speak to infused righteousness since it's rather complex to me and I don't believe in it, but that's the simplest explanation I can give to your statement.
Also, in your heading you asked a question: "Are we accountable for our sins?" I will say YES. However, I am differentiating the word "accountable" from the word "saved" or the idea of "our salvation". We are accountable for our sins in many ways, but our salvation does not come from being sinless since that is not possible for anyone past or present other than what we know of Jesus and the obedience to God that he lived. Further, we are not saved through good works or deeds. We receive our righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ and it is given onto us (Imputed to us) by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ.......
"Are we accountable for our sins?" Yes. If your're not accountable yet, you are not born-again yet.
Romans 3:25 Â Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Pay attention to this: "to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past"
sins that are past are all covered when we first believed, all new sins are not. There is repentance available for these for the ones that find His grace, and only for them. Jesus came to save sinners. Not the self-rightheous. To say you are under grace yet you keep sinning without repentance proves that you did not receive grace, otherwise you would have a desire to repent. That's what the Holy Spirit does. Every false spirit substitute loves it when you tolerate your own sin, you will feel very good (and spiritual) on the way to hell. Jesus came to save sinners. Not the self-rightheous.
It's the docrtines of devils that teach that sin is not unrightheousness anymore for the apostates that think of themselves as "saved". And God allows that because:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 Â And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If anyone is under that strong delusion already it's high time to stop spreading lies to other people to multiply your own error and coming judgment, go on your knees and pray to Jesus to end your fallen state of being cut off from grace. Ask to be able to reject the lies and find His grace in repentance, and then when you can see your sins clearly, ask for forgiveness and turn away from them. That's the way of the overcomers in Revelation. All others are apostates. There are no other denominations in the end, only these 2 camps. The ones that desires holiness and end to sin, and the others that are self-rightheous in their sins. Jesus came to save repentant sinners, only.
Romans 3:25 Â Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Pay attention to this: "to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past"
sins that are past are all covered when we first believed, all new sins are not. There is repentance available for these for the ones that find His grace, and only for them. Jesus came to save sinners. Not the self-rightheous. To say you are under grace yet you keep sinning without repentance proves that you did not receive grace, otherwise you would have a desire to repent. That's what the Holy Spirit does. Every false spirit substitute loves it when you tolerate your own sin, you will feel very good (and spiritual) on the way to hell. Jesus came to save sinners. Not the self-rightheous.
It's the docrtines of devils that teach that sin is not unrightheousness anymore for the apostates that think of themselves as "saved". And God allows that because:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 Â And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If anyone is under that strong delusion already it's high time to stop spreading lies to other people to multiply your own error and coming judgment, go on your knees and pray to Jesus to end your fallen state of being cut off from grace. Ask to be able to reject the lies and find His grace in repentance, and then when you can see your sins clearly, ask for forgiveness and turn away from them. That's the way of the overcomers in Revelation. All others are apostates. There are no other denominations in the end, only these 2 camps. The ones that desires holiness and end to sin, and the others that are self-rightheous in their sins. Jesus came to save repentant sinners, only.
Danus
Member
Geo said:
Geo, help me understand you view of salvation. I'm understanding your view would follow infused righteousness where by we achieve a sinless/righteous state??? In other words we receive salvation only when we repent? is that correct? We believe, we understand our sins, we repent and we are saved. Correct? Can you clarify the steps to salvation as you understand it?
Geo said:
This verse does not refer to an individual's "past" sins. It was the forebearance of God that did not punish sins before the cross of Christ...those are the past sins. All sin was taken by Jesus at the cross. One sacrifice for sins "for ever".
Believers have been washed, sanctified, and justified....none of it was our doing. Not our works of righteousness, but by His mercy.Hebrews 10:10-14 said:
There is no delusion in what Christ has done. Repentance is unto salvation, which is a turning to Christ and believing what He accomplished on the cross. If some take that as an excuse to sin then they only profess to know the Lord. That is not a new creature...born again of the Spirit.1 Cor. 6: 11-12 said:
We are not accountable for our sins...they have been washed. We are accountable for our obedience and will be chastened when we fail.
ChevyRodeo said:
We are fully accountable for our sin. Jesus died such that only those accepted by Him can be saved. Not those saying O Lord O Lord in their mouth will be saved.
So the new standard seems to be, if our Judge Jesus Christ accepts you, you'll be saved. If He denies you to say "depart from me". You are gone ( you subject yourself to the Law this way).
Now how to follow this new standard. He said, you need to be born again, and to be Holy. You will only be able to meet with Him unless you are willing to abandon your way of sinning and go towards holiness.
So we are still accountable for our sin. The difference is that we are no longer need to satisfy the Law. But we still need to satisfy our Lord's requirement, that is, being second born and holy.
After you come into knowledge of the truth - and you reject it - it's wilfull sin (any related sin based on a "misunderstood" truth)
pleading ignorance or accidental sin only works when someone was not informed, did not know, and did not willfully participate in a sin.
A claim "It wasn't wilfull because i actually didn't fully understand....or accept...." is something else, it's the problem of self-rightheousness. That means claiming "i'm good despite not believing truth after i heard it - it just didn't sound right to me". That's the position humanists and intellectual pluralists prefer ("One God - one truth ? don't be a unicorn" they say. What supposedly should be regarded as a valid reason for the like minded. It's just normal to misunderstand God's truth because it's too specific or "narrow" so they claim)
What reminds of a video I just saw. "pastor" R. Schuller (33 deg. mason) of Crystal Cath. says to Billy Graham "there is such a wideness in your view of salvation". After Mr Graham stated that everyone of any religion can be saved, whether they realize "the christ within them" or not. Yeah, there is indeed a broad road of tolerance that leads to destruction.
pleading ignorance or accidental sin only works when someone was not informed, did not know, and did not willfully participate in a sin.
A claim "It wasn't wilfull because i actually didn't fully understand....or accept...." is something else, it's the problem of self-rightheousness. That means claiming "i'm good despite not believing truth after i heard it - it just didn't sound right to me". That's the position humanists and intellectual pluralists prefer ("One God - one truth ? don't be a unicorn" they say. What supposedly should be regarded as a valid reason for the like minded. It's just normal to misunderstand God's truth because it's too specific or "narrow" so they claim)
What reminds of a video I just saw. "pastor" R. Schuller (33 deg. mason) of Crystal Cath. says to Billy Graham "there is such a wideness in your view of salvation". After Mr Graham stated that everyone of any religion can be saved, whether they realize "the christ within them" or not. Yeah, there is indeed a broad road of tolerance that leads to destruction.
Danus
Member
There is no delusion in what Christ has done. Repentance is unto salvation, which is a turning to Christ and believing what He accomplished on the cross. If some take that as an excuse to sin then they only profess to know the Lord. That is not a new creature...born again of the Spirit.glorydaz said:
We are not accountable for our sins...they have been washed. We are accountable for our obedience and will be chastened when we fail.[/quote:22bb117k]
thank you
"It was the forebearance of God that did not punish sins before the cross of Christ"
That's 100% lala land talk. Read Romans 3:25 and stop changing it to fit your deception.
The truth before the cross of Christ: Ezekiel 18:20 Â The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Psalms 9:17 Â The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Ezekiel 3:20 Â Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:
because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
So if anyone is a "righteous man", he will gladly accept the warning at any time, and stop believing in "sancified righteous sin". That's really trusting in the magic of "it's not sin because i'm a believer". Wrong, you remain under grace if you repent from your sin. Then you will be counted with the overcomers again.
Everyone that doesn't hate sin, is at best lukewarm anyway. And the lukewarm will not see heaven either. Rev3:16.
In addition Sardis in Rev. is a good example that the 'non-overcomers' inside this church will be blotted out of the book of life. Yes, it's the hard truth, and it's not an empty claim on a forum. If you want to argue with that, take it to Jesus, if He wants you to understand it, He will.
That's 100% lala land talk. Read Romans 3:25 and stop changing it to fit your deception.
The truth before the cross of Christ: Ezekiel 18:20 Â The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Psalms 9:17 Â The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Ezekiel 3:20 Â Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:
because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
So if anyone is a "righteous man", he will gladly accept the warning at any time, and stop believing in "sancified righteous sin". That's really trusting in the magic of "it's not sin because i'm a believer". Wrong, you remain under grace if you repent from your sin. Then you will be counted with the overcomers again.
Everyone that doesn't hate sin, is at best lukewarm anyway. And the lukewarm will not see heaven either. Rev3:16.
In addition Sardis in Rev. is a good example that the 'non-overcomers' inside this church will be blotted out of the book of life. Yes, it's the hard truth, and it's not an empty claim on a forum. If you want to argue with that, take it to Jesus, if He wants you to understand it, He will.
Geo said:
You can call it lala land if you like, but it's the Gospel pure and simple.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." And then, guess what happened? The Son of God came and died for the sins of the whole world. Let's not rip one verse out of context and claim it means something it doesn't. What was the forbearance of God?
His long suffering was for the sins of the world...until the cross paid the price. All those from the beginning of time who had faith came by way of the cross. It's only His righteousness...not yours or any man's that provides life. We are counted with the overcomers because Jesus overcame...not you or any self-proclaimed "righteous" man. There are none. We have Christ's righteousness imputed to us...there is no more condemnation to those who have been born again. Anything else is denying the blood that bought you. You can't get yourself saved, nor can you keep yourself saved. That's the Gospel message...like it or not.Romans 3:22-26 said:
Cornelius said:
Jesus' sacrifice was for ALL sin...not just unknown sin or accidental sin. Many people know about Jesus, they even believe in Him, but are not willing to forsake all and follow Him. They've heard the Gospel message, which is truth, but they turn away...turn back. There is belief....and there is belief unto the saving of the soul.
If they were of us they would have remained....they do not "believe to the saving of the soul".
Not born again a new creation. Having the knowledge of the truth is not the same as being born again a new creature. Many of Christ's "followers" turned back because the cost was too dear...but those who have been born again, given a circumcised heart "are not of them who draw back unto perdition."
Heb. 10:38-39 said:
The Jews had a zeal for God, and knowledge, but not the right kind of knowledge....they were ignorant of God's righteousness...and went about establishing their own...not submitting themselves to His righteousness.
Romans 10:2-3 said:
cyberjosh
Member
ChevyRodeo said:
Imagine an extreme scenario: Someone murders several people by gunning them down and then flees from the scene in their car. During their escape they crash the car and suffer a serious concussion, which incurs amnesia. The next morning they wake up in the hospital and remember nothing and feel as if nothing wrong happened (to their knowledge). Are they still guilty even if they have no recollection of their crime, and swear with great sincerity that they would never be capable of commiting such a henious crime (and imagine the bizzare scenario of them hearing of the news on TV and tearing up and saying 'that's aweful')?
I say they absolutely are guilty. The lesson: we are guilty of sins which me may not even know anything about. That extreme scenario has many additional alternate side effects & considerations such as prior, deliberate decision to commit the crime. But on a lesser/more practical scale sometimes in our daily lives we commit sins of which we may not be aware, and we need redemption from even those sins.
Psalm 19:12 says, "Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults." Also, Psalm 90:8, "You have placed our iniquities before You, Our secret sins in the light of Your presence." Many laws in Leviticus also deal with unintentional or unnoticed ("hidden") sins, and it showed (even in the law of Moses) that we need cleansing from all sins: known or unknown, intentional or unintentional, hidden or obvious.
God Bless,
~Josh
glorydaz said:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
Of course Jesus died for all sin .....up to the point of salvation. Even murder. But after He has cleansed you, you are suppose to walk a clean life through His power and grace that HAS BEEN given to you already to enable you to live a godly life 2Pe 1:3 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
But the Bible says that now we have been cleansed. And we do not have the freedom to go back and sin willfully . We will still unknowingly and accidentally , but if indeed we have repented we will produce the fruit of repentance. Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
This means, walk as a holy person and do not claim "salvation" as an excuse , while we carry on in willing sin Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? and if we willingly stay within that sin, we are unrighteous , 1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God ?
cybershark5886 said:
God tells us that we have to know about the sin, before He makes you guilty of it.
Jas 4:17 To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. meaning some of the things you do that is wrong , and you do not know YET they are wrong: God does not hold you accountable for it.
This was not the case in the time of the Law. But you and I are under Grace now. That is indeed "Good News"
You are held accountable only when you KNOW something is wrong and you still go ahead and do it.
No, we're cleansed from ALL sin. I have to wonder why we have so many people doubting the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells those who have been born again of the Spirit. I believe you are confusing the "professing Christians" with the true body of Christ. No believer I know deliberately sets out to sin. Whatever happened to the idea of searching one's own soul instead of constantly pointing fingers at their brothers in the Lord. There must be more discernment in the body. Has it gotten to the point that we see all kinds of "sinning" believers behind every corner? Or have we become so gullible that we think all those people living in sin are truly a part of the body of Christ?Cornelius said: