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Bible Study Are We Born With a Sin nature

stovebolts

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I believe that the soul is made up of our mind, will, and emotions.


The unrenewed mind can indeed be at odds with our new nature, our spirit man that is indwelled with the Spirit.


This is why we must have our minds renewed, so that we will both align ourselves and do what the Spirit leads us to do, which is being transformed into the image of Christ; walking in the truth.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2




JLB
I understand, and I am not in disagreement that the soul consists of these things. I believe our differences are just semantics or an inability to articulate on my part.

I've got a busy day that will end about 8pm tonight, so I probably won't get time to engage too much more in this conversation today.
Have a blessed day.
 

stovebolts

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And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
I just wanted to circle back to what I said earlier.
We are either conforming to the world, or to the will of God.
Genesis 1:27a Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
Two parts. us = trinity and the earth
our = trinity and earth
We are in the image and likeness of both God and the earth.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
 

JLB

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Adam's sin did not spread to all mankind. What spread to mankind was the result of his sin. Death was the result of his sin, and death spread through all humanity because of that sin.

Im not disagreeing what you are saying about death. Death certainly spread to all mankind. No doubt.

… thus death spread to all men


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12


What I am asking you to consider is that sin also entered the human race which is why death also entered and spread to all mankind.


  • Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world

The world refers to people (fallen humanity). Because sin entered the world of humanity, death entered as well, and continues to be spread to all people through procreation.



Here are some verses that indicate “the world” refers to fallen humanity (fallen because of Adam’s sin being spread to all mankind).


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2



Please consider these passages.






JLB
 

for_his_glory

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I understand.
NIV Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

I've highlighted "Let us" as this can have a dual meaning. We Christians generally go right into Trinitarian thought, and I'm right there with you. However, there is another meaning not so lofty and it is very simple and easy to understand.

We see that God creates the heavens and the earth, and as I said to JLB earlier, God empowers the earth to "bring forth". However, when God creates humanity, he does not simply tell the earth to "bring forth" humanity in the way he told the earth to bring forth the wild beast. No, instead God says, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness".

Two parts here. God, Earth (God's creation). Man is both in the likeness and image of the land in that when we die, our body returns to the dust in which it came, and our spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

It is from this perspective that we have "two souls", or at the minimum, we have two "parts" to our soul. I really don't want to get caught up in semantics, this or that, but this is simply to say that within each of us is a fleshly being and a spiritual being, and the two at times wrestle.
I totally agree and thank you for clarifying the two as I wasn't understanding what you were talking about having two souls.
 

for_his_glory

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The world refers to people (fallen humanity). Because sin entered the world of humanity, death entered as well, and continues to be spread to all people through procreation.
Sin did enter the hearts of humanity as I think we can agree with this. Like Adam, we all chose to walk in disobedience that not only brings physical death, but more importantly, Spiritual death that causes us to lose fellowship with God if we remain in the state of our own sin. We see that Adam and Eve did not physically die that day when they ate, but Spiritually died losing that Spiritual fellowship with God and all the land was made a curse unto them as they were cast out of the garden in Eden.

Are we held accountable unto God for Adam's sin, or even out parents sin, no. We are only accountable for the iniquities found in us. Satan was created perfect until iniquity was found in him and he fell from the glory of the Lord. Same with Adam and everyone else as each individual has fallen short by their own transgression.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
 

stovebolts

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What I am asking you to consider is that sin also entered the human race which is why death also entered and spread to all mankind.
And because I respect you, I have been pondering this subject the past few days.
  • Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world
Let's ponder that. Scripture relates the soul as a garment, and let's say this garment is pure white. And let's say that sin is represented by a glass of red wine. I am not saying wine is sin, but only using it as an example. If that wine gets spilled on the garment, it will leave a permanent stain but prior to being spilled, the garment is pristine.

Now, before I go any further, I must confess my bias. This topic is near and dear to me and for the reason I am about to give, and I do speak for many others who have experienced the same. I no longer carry the weight of what I am about to write, but I have not forgotten the weight nor the pain and don't wish anyone the burden I carried.

I lost my firstborn when she was four months old. This is a pain I wish on nobody. I have a cousin that is Catholic, and I did have minor Catholic influence on my life growing up and one of the things I wanted for my child, because I loved her so much, was for her to be baptized as an infant. Please do not look at the act but look at my heart. I wanted my child to know God, and I wanted to be obedient to God. Right wrong or indifferent, my heart was in the right place.

A few months after her death, I was speaking to my cousin who was Catholic and I asked, "Do you think Amanda is in heaven"? Her reply was, "She wasn't Baptized, so we really don't know". Not only did I suffer the physical loss of my beloved daughter, but the spiritual pain that came from not knowing if she was with Jesus and the visual of her being tormented was a weight that I carried for many, many years and this gave me a skewed perspective on who God is.

I must also make another confession. I want to believe that my daughter and every child that died prematurely or was aborted is in heaven. I cannot even begin to entertain the thought that even one should be in hell for eternity separated from God. Now, truth be told, the doctrine of the sinful nature came from St. Augustine while debating the Universalist and one thing they all agreed on was baptism as part of one's salvation (agree or disagree, it's what the early church taught). St. Augustine leveraged this common belief against the Universalists, and it was woven into his doctrine on sinful nature which was again leveraged by John Calvin and permeates much of Christianity regardless of denomination.

What I realize now is that I rail against certain Catholic and Calvinistic doctrines (rightfully so, I believe) but in doing so, I may be blinding myself to certain truths on the very matter of the sinful nature.

We both agree that no infant will be tormented in hell for perhaps different reasons, and we both back our perspectives with scripture. In this area, I have never been in disagreement with you, although we put our emphasis in different passages. What's important, is we both draw the same overall conclusion and how we get there is extremely similar.

So yes, do me the honor of pondering what I've written and please bear with my ramblings.

The analogy I used about our soul being a garment stained with sin does not carry through to conceiving a child as told above. However, and to your point when a male and female come together, and a child is conceived, that child is very much the biological product of the parents. However, I must say within the same breath that the child is also the product of God because every soul has the spark, or as some say, the "breath of God" within them.

With the above understanding, how then do I make the jump that sin is in us and a part of us from conception without cracking the door with the thought that any child should perish in eternal damnation and from the perspective of one who has had a child naively aborted, should they carry the weight of believing they are the reason their child suffers in torment for their actions?

I have laid myself bare to you and my inquiry is genuine. I am not out to win an intellectual battle but in reality, I am simply desiring to have peace within my soul for a life experience I live with. I have laid my bias bare before you because I know that our bias can blind us from God's truth at times, and if I am blinded, I wish to reconcile God's word to know it's fullness, for it is only in God's fullness that we are truly set free.

With that, I have been convicted on the matter through science, and perhaps that's an entry point. I said earlier that science has shown that if a parent has a traumatic experience, it actually imprints that into your DNA. That imprint actually transfers to the child at conception. Most traumatic experiences are caused by sin and could have been avoided. So, in this case, we see sin leaving a genetic mark within our DNA which can pass from generation to generation if not resolved. In this since, the child inherits this marker from its parents.

Going back to the fall, I believe Seth to be the firstborn from Adam's line after the fall. Both Adam and Eve experiences some pretty traumatic things, including being exiled from the presence of God, displaced from the garden to a land that could bring you thorns when you planted corn and not only that, but they experience the loss of a child to the grave which occurred through their other son who was then exiled and marked that he would not be killed. Want to talk about a dysfunctional family full of pain, disappointment and crushed dreams. All of this had to of paid its toll on both Adam and Eve which genetically would have been passed onto Seth.

With an open mind, could this then be what we know as the 'sinful nature'? Is it simply the DNA marker that is passed from generation to generation that binds us as keeps us captive.

I don't know... and if you've stuck around long enough to read all of this and understand where I'm at then I want to thank you for taking the time to actually read this. I know it was long, but I felt it had to be said and it exposes my bias.
 

for_his_glory

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And because I respect you, I have been pondering this subject the past few days.

Let's ponder that. Scripture relates the soul as a garment, and let's say this garment is pure white. And let's say that sin is represented by a glass of red wine. I am not saying wine is sin, but only using it as an example. If that wine gets spilled on the garment, it will leave a permanent stain but prior to being spilled, the garment is pristine.

Now, before I go any further, I must confess my bias. This topic is near and dear to me and for the reason I am about to give, and I do speak for many others who have experienced the same. I no longer carry the weight of what I am about to write, but I have not forgotten the weight nor the pain and don't wish anyone the burden I carried.

I lost my firstborn when she was four months old. This is a pain I wish on nobody. I have a cousin that is Catholic, and I did have minor Catholic influence on my life growing up and one of the things I wanted for my child, because I loved her so much, was for her to be baptized as an infant. Please do not look at the act but look at my heart. I wanted my child to know God, and I wanted to be obedient to God. Right wrong or indifferent, my heart was in the right place.

A few months after her death, I was speaking to my cousin who was Catholic and I asked, "Do you think Amanda is in heaven"? Her reply was, "She wasn't Baptized, so we really don't know". Not only did I suffer the physical loss of my beloved daughter, but the spiritual pain that came from not knowing if she was with Jesus and the visual of her being tormented was a weight that I carried for many, many years and this gave me a skewed perspective on who God is.

I must also make another confession. I want to believe that my daughter and every child that died prematurely or was aborted is in heaven. I cannot even begin to entertain the thought that even one should be in hell for eternity separated from God. Now, truth be told, the doctrine of the sinful nature came from St. Augustine while debating the Universalist and one thing they all agreed on was baptism as part of one's salvation (agree or disagree, it's what the early church taught). St. Augustine leveraged this common belief against the Universalists, and it was woven into his doctrine on sinful nature which was again leveraged by John Calvin and permeates much of Christianity regardless of denomination.

What I realize now is that I rail against certain Catholic and Calvinistic doctrines (rightfully so, I believe) but in doing so, I may be blinding myself to certain truths on the very matter of the sinful nature.

We both agree that no infant will be tormented in hell for perhaps different reasons, and we both back our perspectives with scripture. In this area, I have never been in disagreement with you, although we put our emphasis in different passages. What's important, is we both draw the same overall conclusion and how we get there is extremely similar.

So yes, do me the honor of pondering what I've written and please bear with my ramblings.

The analogy I used about our soul being a garment stained with sin does not carry through to conceiving a child as told above. However, and to your point when a male and female come together, and a child is conceived, that child is very much the biological product of the parents. However, I must say within the same breath that the child is also the product of God because every soul has the spark, or as some say, the "breath of God" within them.

With the above understanding, how then do I make the jump that sin is in us and a part of us from conception without cracking the door with the thought that any child should perish in eternal damnation and from the perspective of one who has had a child naively aborted, should they carry the weight of believing they are the reason their child suffers in torment for their actions?

I have laid myself bare to you and my inquiry is genuine. I am not out to win an intellectual battle but in reality, I am simply desiring to have peace within my soul for a life experience I live with. I have laid my bias bare before you because I know that our bias can blind us from God's truth at times, and if I am blinded, I wish to reconcile God's word to know it's fullness, for it is only in God's fullness that we are truly set free.

With that, I have been convicted on the matter through science, and perhaps that's an entry point. I said earlier that science has shown that if a parent has a traumatic experience, it actually imprints that into your DNA. That imprint actually transfers to the child at conception. Most traumatic experiences are caused by sin and could have been avoided. So, in this case, we see sin leaving a genetic mark within our DNA which can pass from generation to generation if not resolved. In this since, the child inherits this marker from its parents.

Going back to the fall, I believe Seth to be the firstborn from Adam's line after the fall. Both Adam and Eve experiences some pretty traumatic things, including being exiled from the presence of God, displaced from the garden to a land that could bring you thorns when you planted corn and not only that, but they experience the loss of a child to the grave which occurred through their other son who was then exiled and marked that he would not be killed. Want to talk about a dysfunctional family full of pain, disappointment and crushed dreams. All of this had to of paid its toll on both Adam and Eve which genetically would have been passed onto Seth.

With an open mind, could this then be what we know as the 'sinful nature'? Is it simply the DNA marker that is passed from generation to generation that binds us as keeps us captive.

I don't know... and if you've stuck around long enough to read all of this and understand where I'm at then I want to thank you for taking the time to actually read this. I know it was long, but I felt it had to be said and it exposes my bias.
This really hits the heart condition between the parents and their child through how you explained the DNA. Thank you for sharing this with us.
 

JLB

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And because I respect you, I have been pondering this subject the past few days.

Let's ponder that. Scripture relates the soul as a garment, and let's say this garment is pure white. And let's say that sin is represented by a glass of red wine. I am not saying wine is sin, but only using it as an example. If that wine gets spilled on the garment, it will leave a permanent stain but prior to being spilled, the garment is pristine.

Now, before I go any further, I must confess my bias. This topic is near and dear to me and for the reason I am about to give, and I do speak for many others who have experienced the same. I no longer carry the weight of what I am about to write, but I have not forgotten the weight nor the pain and don't wish anyone the burden I carried.

I lost my firstborn when she was four months old. This is a pain I wish on nobody. I have a cousin that is Catholic, and I did have minor Catholic influence on my life growing up and one of the things I wanted for my child, because I loved her so much, was for her to be baptized as an infant. Please do not look at the act but look at my heart. I wanted my child to know God, and I wanted to be obedient to God. Right wrong or indifferent, my heart was in the right place.

A few months after her death, I was speaking to my cousin who was Catholic and I asked, "Do you think Amanda is in heaven"? Her reply was, "She wasn't Baptized, so we really don't know". Not only did I suffer the physical loss of my beloved daughter, but the spiritual pain that came from not knowing if she was with Jesus and the visual of her being tormented was a weight that I carried for many, many years and this gave me a skewed perspective on who God is.

I must also make another confession. I want to believe that my daughter and every child that died prematurely or was aborted is in heaven. I cannot even begin to entertain the thought that even one should be in hell for eternity separated from God. Now, truth be told, the doctrine of the sinful nature came from St. Augustine while debating the Universalist and one thing they all agreed on was baptism as part of one's salvation (agree or disagree, it's what the early church taught). St. Augustine leveraged this common belief against the Universalists, and it was woven into his doctrine on sinful nature which was again leveraged by John Calvin and permeates much of Christianity regardless of denomination.

What I realize now is that I rail against certain Catholic and Calvinistic doctrines (rightfully so, I believe) but in doing so, I may be blinding myself to certain truths on the very matter of the sinful nature.

We both agree that no infant will be tormented in hell for perhaps different reasons, and we both back our perspectives with scripture. In this area, I have never been in disagreement with you, although we put our emphasis in different passages. What's important, is we both draw the same overall conclusion and how we get there is extremely similar.

So yes, do me the honor of pondering what I've written and please bear with my ramblings.

The analogy I used about our soul being a garment stained with sin does not carry through to conceiving a child as told above. However, and to your point when a male and female come together, and a child is conceived, that child is very much the biological product of the parents. However, I must say within the same breath that the child is also the product of God because every soul has the spark, or as some say, the "breath of God" within them.

With the above understanding, how then do I make the jump that sin is in us and a part of us from conception without cracking the door with the thought that any child should perish in eternal damnation and from the perspective of one who has had a child naively aborted, should they carry the weight of believing they are the reason their child suffers in torment for their actions?

I have laid myself bare to you and my inquiry is genuine. I am not out to win an intellectual battle but in reality, I am simply desiring to have peace within my soul for a life experience I live with. I have laid my bias bare before you because I know that our bias can blind us from God's truth at times, and if I am blinded, I wish to reconcile God's word to know it's fullness, for it is only in God's fullness that we are truly set free.

With that, I have been convicted on the matter through science, and perhaps that's an entry point. I said earlier that science has shown that if a parent has a traumatic experience, it actually imprints that into your DNA. That imprint actually transfers to the child at conception. Most traumatic experiences are caused by sin and could have been avoided. So, in this case, we see sin leaving a genetic mark within our DNA which can pass from generation to generation if not resolved. In this since, the child inherits this marker from its parents.

Going back to the fall, I believe Seth to be the firstborn from Adam's line after the fall. Both Adam and Eve experiences some pretty traumatic things, including being exiled from the presence of God, displaced from the garden to a land that could bring you thorns when you planted corn and not only that, but they experience the loss of a child to the grave which occurred through their other son who was then exiled and marked that he would not be killed. Want to talk about a dysfunctional family full of pain, disappointment and crushed dreams. All of this had to of paid its toll on both Adam and Eve which genetically would have been passed onto Seth.

With an open mind, could this then be what we know as the 'sinful nature'? Is it simply the DNA marker that is passed from generation to generation that binds us as keeps us captive.

I don't know... and if you've stuck around long enough to read all of this and understand where I'm at then I want to thank you for taking the time to actually read this. I know it was long, but I felt it had to be said and it exposes my bias.

You know my position on children being innocent until the “age of accountability“ (not necessarily a biblical term but indeed a biblical concept”.

Children even though being born with a “body of sin” remain innocent until they know good from evil.


Your precious daughter is with Jesus.





JLB
 

for_his_glory

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Children even though being born with a “body of sin” remain innocent until they know good from evil.
No one is born with a body of sin for that would mean God created us as sinners.

What the body has even at birth is the nature to sin. Until one has the knowledge of good and evil then how would they even know they were sinning against God unless it was shown to them what sin means.
 

stovebolts

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ou know my position on children being innocent until the “age of accountability“ (not necessarily a biblical term but indeed a biblical concept”.
Yes I do. Which is why I brought it up. Sometimes when we rail against some things(Calvinism or Catholic teachings) even though we are correct in railing against them, it can blind us to the fullness of Gods truth.
I don’t want my zeal to keep my eyes closed to the fullness of Gods truth, if I am indeed blinded.
I’m comforted in knowing my daughter is in Heaven, so I no longer need to be right.
 
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WalterandDebbie

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We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.


Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. Their desire was to be like God and saw no wrong with their decision, but when the knowledge of good and evil was opened before them it was at that time they knew they disobeyed God and tried to hide their shame. The consequence of their disobedience was God casting them out of the beautiful garden and casting them out into a sinful world.


There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal (blood) sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final blood sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.


Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.


David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what they learn, Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.


Matthew 18:3 Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is saying here is that we need to be converted in all humility like that of a child as their example of humility as being humble and without pride.


Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? As a child we take on our physical attributes from our physical parents, but our spirit we get from God when he breathed live into us. God created us in His image and if we were already born with a sin nature that knew evil then that would mean Gods image would be evil since we are created in His image. But we know that is not the case, because in God there is no evil and we are born without evil in us, but are born into an evil world.


2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. If we were conceived and born with evil in us then how could we wax worse in evil and be deceived by others as we would already be evil, but again we are made in the pure image of God so how can evil be found in us before we were even born from the womb.


Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


How do we get an honest and good heart if we are not born with one as it is only by the evil that is in the world that will cause us to be deceived if we lust after it. Once again, train up a child in the way they should go and they will not turn from it. Parents are the ones who we get our attributes from as a child as we are influenced by what we see and hear around us.
Amen! after viewing the above in the context, which is in order in scripture, and by my view on the below would be interesting, what do you all think?


Love, Walter
 

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Amen! after viewing the above in the context, which is in order in scripture, and by my view on the below would be interesting, what do you all think?


Love, Walter
I do not doubt that Adam was not present when Eve spoke with the serpent, But, Adam did eat from the forbidden tree as Eve gave to him to eat.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

We see that Adam was with her after her conversation with the serpent as she took and ate and also gave to Adam to eat of that tree. We can only assume that she either plucked another fruit or that she shared her fruit with Adam.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

By this verse it says that Adam knew what tree he ate of, but blamed Eve instead of admitting his own sin.
 
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