Are you a “True Worshipper”?

[Cnkw3]

In John 4 we find Jesus saying this….
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24

By Jesus using the phrase “true worshipper” implies that there are those that may worship but it is not true worship. I believe we can see an example of that in MT 15 when Jesus confronted the Pharisees and told them that they honored him with their lips but their heart was far from him and he explained why…..they taught for doctrine the commandments of men. I think we see this kind of worship in many “ churches” today.

In order to be a “true worshipper” one MUST (this is an imperative, you have no other choice) worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

SPIRIT - This is having the right attitude, reverence for God, and awe to be able to praise the God of heaven. This deals with the emotion and feeling of worship.

TRUTH - This is doing things according to the truth of Gods word. The ONLY place we find “truth” is in Gods word he has given us in our Bibles. It does not come from the “church”, Pope, catechism, statements of faith, creed books, or anyones opinion. It comes through book, chapter, and verse. Period. If you cant find what you are doing and teaching in your ”Christian” life in the Bible (Gods word) then it is not being done in “truth”.

So, are you a “TRUE WORSHIPPER”?

 

[Cnkw3]

Examples
Do “true worshippers”……

worship God with musical instruments? I cant find it in Gods word of truth so how can I do that “in truth”? I cant. I can only do it because man and not God has instructed me to.

Allow women to lead in the worship service (In song or teaching)? Can’t find that in the word of truth so one can only do it because man told you to do it because God never did.

Tell me to say a prayer for salvation. Can’t find that in Gods word. That only comes from mans teaching because it didnt come from God so it cant be done in truth which means you might be a “worshipper” but not a “true worshipper”. There is a difference (big difference)

 

[WIP]

worship God with musical instruments? I cant find it in Gods word of truth so how can I do that “in truth”? I cant. I can only do it because man and not God has instructed me to.

The use of instruments by themselves may be just another way of going through the motions but they can still be a form of worship in spirit and Scripture does talk of using musical instruments and dance in giving praise to God. In fact, many of the Psalms are written by David, the one after God's own heart, and others for song, instruments, and dance.

1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!
Psalm 150:1-6 NKJV

1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous!
For praise from the upright is beautiful.
2 Praise the Lord with the harp;
Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.
Psalm 33:1-3 NKJV

1 Praise the Lord!
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the godly!
2 Let Israel be glad in his Maker;
let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!
3 Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
Psalm 149:1-3 NKJV

 

[Mungo]

TRUTH - This is doing things according to the truth of Gods word. The ONLY place we find “truth” is in Gods word he has given us in our Bibles. It does not come from the “church”, Pope, catechism, statements of faith, creed books, or anyones opinion. It comes through book, chapter, and verse. Period. If you cant find what you are doing and teaching in your ”Christian” life in the Bible (Gods word) then it is not being done in “truth”.

Well that is only your opinion.
And you tell us that truth does not comes from opinions.

 

[Cnkw3]

The use of instruments by themselves may be just another way of going through the motions but they can still be a form of worship in spirit and Scripture does talk of using musical instruments and dance in giving praise to God. In fact, many of the Psalms are written by David, the one after God's own heart, and others for song, instruments, and dance.

1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!
Psalm 150:1-6 NKJV

1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous!
For praise from the upright is beautiful.
2 Praise the Lord with the harp;
Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.
Psalm 33:1-3 NKJV

1 Praise the Lord!
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the godly!
2 Let Israel be glad in his Maker;
let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!
3 Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
Psalm 149:1-3 NKJV

you are going to appeal to the way David lived and worshipped? He was an Israelite under the old law. Do you have multiple wives? Do you sacrifice animals? Do you keep the feast days in Jerusalem, etc.
Paul tells us in Gal 5.…
you who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.
Where was all the dancing and musical instruments in the first century church? This is the problem. people in “Christianity“ toady will go to the Old Testament to justify their worship. What about tithing? It is no where in the NT. We are not commanded to tithe. The fact is Jesus did away with the old law so he could establish the new. Heb 10:9

 

[Cnkw3]

Well that is only your opinion.
And you tell us that truth does not comes from opinions.

Jesus said….sancitfy them in thy truth,THY WORD IS TRUTH.
That is fact not my opinion. Plus read 2 Tim 3:16,17. There is NO OTHER place to get Gods word then the Bible. You either must be catholic or believe that God talks to you and reveals new truth to you DIRECTLY. Which I and many more know is false doctrine. The Catholic Church with all there arrangements are no where in the Bible and Paul tells us that miraculous revelation would cease. Plus, there is not one person alive that can demonstrate the miraculous to back up their claim. How about the pope do it! He’s supposed to be the man of God. He does NOTHING. Paul and the other apostles could. Paul struck a man blind on the spot because he was causing a problem. Ever seen anybody do that?

 

[Mungo]

Jesus said….sancitfy them in thy truth,THY WORD IS TRUTH.
That is fact not my opinion. Plus read 2 Tim 3:16,17. There is NO OTHER place to get Gods word then the Bible. You either must be catholic or believe that God talks to you and reveals new truth to you DIRECTLY. Which I and many more know is false doctrine. The Catholic Church with all there arrangements are no where in the Bible and Paul tells us that miraculous revelation would cease. Plus, there is not one person alive that can demonstrate the miraculous to back up their claim. How about the pope do it! He’s supposed to be the man of God. He does NOTHING. Paul and the other apostles could. Paul struck a man blind on the spot because he was causing a problem. Ever seen anybody do that?

Yes, God's word is truth. But you said:

The ONLY place we find “truth” is in Gods word he has given us in our Bibles.

That is your opinion not a fact.

 

[Cnkw3]

Yes, God's word is truth. But you said:


That is your opinion not a fact.

Then where else does truth come from? Can’t wait to hear this one.

 

[Mungo]

Then where else does truth come from? Can’t wait to hear this one.

Two sources of truth.

1. From God
2. From man - or example 2 x 2 = 4 is true. Or do you think it is something else?

However if you are referring to Divine Revelation than is does not come only from the Bible and the Bible never says it does.

 

[Cnkw3]

Two sources of truth.

1. From God
2. From man - or example 2 x 2 = 4 is true. Or do you think it is something else?

However if you are referring to Divine Revelation than is does not come only from the Bible and the Bible never says it does.

you didnt answer my question. Who cares about 2x2? But, where do you think 2x2 came from? It didnt come from man. Man just discovered it. I fly an airplane and there is a definite truth in gravity. That truth did not come from man, we just discovered it.
The answer you gave me has nothing to do with truth. There are two sources of authority in this world not truth. Man can tell you what to do or God.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Matthew 21:24-27
The above are the only 2 sources of authority. But authority does not mean truth. If authority is backed up by truth then it MUST be followed. So where does the “truth” come from? It’s not man.
Why did Jesus say this in Mt 15?
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:8-9
They taught by the wrong doctrine! They taught by what they thought was truth. It came from man and not from God. These are the only two sources of authority in this world.

So, if “divine revelation does not come only from the Bible”. Then please tell where else can I find it?

 

[Mungo]

You seem to be confusing authority with divine revelation.
Which do you want to discuss?

 

[Cnkw3]

You seem to be confusing authority with divine revelation.
Which do you want to discuss?

My question was clear and plain. I have no confusion. Let me copy and paste my question….
So, if “divine revelation does not come only from the Bible”. Then please tell where else can I find it?
Let me add…It’s not from the pope.

 

[Mungo]

My question was clear and plain. I have no confusion. Let me copy and paste my question….
So, if “divine revelation does not come only from the Bible”. Then please tell where else can I find it?
Let me add…It’s not from the pope.

"Divine revelation" comes from God. I thought that was obvious from the first word - Divine.

 

[Walpole]

Jesus said….sancitfy them in thy truth,THY WORD IS TRUTH.
That is fact not my opinion. Plus read 2 Tim 3:16,17. There is NO OTHER place to get Gods word then the Bible. You either must be catholic or believe that God talks to you and reveals new truth to you DIRECTLY. Which I and many more know is false doctrine. The Catholic Church with all there arrangements are no where in the Bible and Paul tells us that miraculous revelation would cease. Plus, there is not one person alive that can demonstrate the miraculous to back up their claim. How about the pope do it! He’s supposed to be the man of God. He does NOTHING. Paul and the other apostles could. Paul struck a man blind on the spot because he was causing a problem. Ever seen anybody do that?

A single drop of charity is greater than the raising of the dead.

 

[Cnkw3]

"Divine revelation" comes from God. I thought that was obvious from the first word - Divine.

For some reason you don’t want to answer the question. I said that our only source of Gods word and instruction for us today is the Bible. And you said no it isn’t. So now the question is….
If Gods truth DOES NOT just come from the Bible then WHERE does it come from?
For some reason you don’t want to answer that.

 

[Cnkw3]

A single drop of charity is greater than the raising of the dead.

Charity alone wont save you.

 

[Mungo]

For some reason you don’t want to answer the question. I said that our only source of Gods word and instruction for us today is the Bible. And you said no it isn’t. So now the question is….
If Gods truth DOES NOT just come from the Bible then WHERE does it come from?
For some reason you don’t want to answer that.

I told you. It comes from God.
What you are really asking is how did God transmit his revelation to us.
Let's keep to the NT.
He transmitted it to the apostles.
They in turn transmitted it to others, some in writing and some orally.
Eventually much that was transmitted in writing, either directly by the apostles or later by others, was discerned as inspired by the Holy Spirit and canonised as the NT we have today.

Let me ask you a question:
When was the NT finalised and by whom?

 

[Walpole]

Charity alone wont save you.

Is someone arguing that it does?

 

[Walpole]

For some reason you don’t want to answer the question. I said that our only source of Gods word and instruction for us today is the Bible. And you said no it isn’t. So now the question is….
If Gods truth DOES NOT just come from the Bible then WHERE does it come from?
For some reason you don’t want to answer that. the Word of God is not confined to Scripture alone. Again, even St. Luke opens his Gospel stated what he is putting down was first received orally.

The Bible actually explicitly states the word of God is not confined to the written alone. For example, St. Luke opens his Gospel stating what he is putting down was first received orally. Here are a few other examples stating the word of God is not confined to the written word:

1 Thessalonians 2:23 ---> And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 ---> So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Luke 10:16 ---> Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

Hebrews 13:7 ---> Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you...


The Scriptures clearly teach the word of God was spoken, heard and taught by word of mouth. Hence it is not confined to the written alone.

 

[Cnkw3]

I told you. It comes from God.
What you are really asking is how did God transmit his revelation to us.
Let's keep to the NT.
He transmitted it to the apostles.
They in turn transmitted it to others, some in writing and some orally.
Eventually much that was transmitted in writing, either directly by the apostles or later by others, was discerned as inspired by the Holy Spirit and canonised as the NT we have today.

Let me ask you a question:
When was the NT finalised and by whom?

You still wont answer my question. we both agree that truth comes from God. I take the position that this “truth” from God ONLY comes to us through the written word of the Bible that God gave us. You say…no it doesn’t.
So please tell me….Where else do I get Gods word of truth from?

The NT was finished and distributed in the first century. We know that because churches were instructed to pass these letters on to other churches.
And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Colossians 4:16
we also know that the book of revelation was sent to the seven churches in Asia so no the Catholic Church didnt finalize the Bible and determine what should be accepted. These letters had been distributed for years before there was any Roman Catholic Church.
So, go ahead and say it…the pope is an inspired source of Gods word. The Catholic Church can make up whatever they want and call it….”Gods truth”.