Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

Assuming Salvation through knowing the theology

struggling

Member
Gender
Male
Messages
104
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
I've been thinking about this phenomenon for years concerning my own conversion experience, sensing the lack of authenticity of it, and recently heard some preaching on the subject. It's the fact that some people profess to be Christian, and know Scripture up and down, even about theology.... and they gloss over the part about personally coming to Jesus, thus they have never had a true conversion experience. They believe all the theology applies to them, but they've never beheld the glory of the Lord in the face of Jesus Christ, which is the Light that shines in our hearts and minds (2 Cor 4:6). The discussion I listened to called it "assuming salvation through knowing theology". The most dynamite verse about this is in John 5:39-40. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, but it is them Scriptures which testify of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life." These verses popped out to me as being very critical verses in the church today.
 

Quantrill

Member
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
1,135
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
I've been thinking about this phenomenon for years concerning my own conversion experience, sensing the lack of authenticity of it, and recently heard some preaching on the subject. It's the fact that some people profess to be Christian, and know Scripture up and down, even about theology.... and they gloss over the part about personally coming to Jesus, thus they have never had a true conversion experience. They believe all the theology applies to them, but they've never beheld the glory of the Lord in the face of Jesus Christ, which is the Light that shines in our hearts and minds (2 Cor 4:6). The discussion I listened to called it "assuming salvation through knowing theology". The most dynamite verse about this is in John 5:39-40. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, but it is them Scriptures which testify of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life." These verses popped out to me as being very critical verses in the church today.

So, are you saying you're not Christian?

Quantrill
 

for_his_glory

Light in darkness
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
18,448
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Many say they are a Christian, but only give lip service to the Lord for they truly have not Christ in their heart as they have never been Spiritually born again from above or indwelled with the Holy Spirit. This is what is happening in many churches today as God's salvation is not being taught and many are Pastor followers instead of followers of Christ.
 

struggling

Member
Gender
Male
Messages
104
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
So, are you saying you're not Christian?

Quantrill
No. That’s not what I’m saying. I think I can see times where my faith isn’t as authentic as it could be. I have come to Him, many times, every day. But some people assume total salvation without ever coming to him.
 

Who Me

Member
From
London England
Gender
Male
Messages
1,521
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
No. That’s not what I’m saying. I think I can see times where my faith isn’t as authentic as it could be. I have come to Him, many times, every day. But some people assume total salvation without ever coming to him.

What other people do is irrelevant. Many Christians are unsure about there salvation, for what ever reason.

The question is do you believe that Jesus is your saviour?
Do you intend to serve him in your life?
Then get on with it.


Yes we do not earn our salvation, but we do show our love for and obedience to Jesus by what we do, say and live.

The Spirit living in you knows your weaknesses and will be with you as you grow in your own experience and personal knowledge of God.

If you don't trust Jesus, in who will you put your trust?
 

struggling

Member
Gender
Male
Messages
104
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
What other people do is irrelevant. Many Christians are unsure about there salvation, for what ever reason.

The question is do you believe that Jesus is your saviour?
Do you intend to serve him in your life?
Then get on with it.


Yes we do not earn our salvation, but we do show our love for and obedience to Jesus by what we do, say and live.

The Spirit living in you knows your weaknesses and will be with you as you grow in your own experience and personal knowledge of God.

If you don't trust Jesus, in who will you put your trust?
I don’t have a difficulty believing Jesus is my savior and that he saves me - I’m not asking help for myself in this post, although when I started my journey, God had to really filter out the false teachers from my life to know who I believe, and I had to examine my own faith.

Rather, I’m simply making a point of warning. The “other people” actually is very relevant. They are like the Pharisees who shut the kingdom up from people Matt 23:13. They can do damage to other’s faith Matt 23:15. What if they are doing this and it negatively affects someone I love? Believer or not? It’s a way of thinking that is dangerous for the church Gal 2:4. It’s most relevant. And it’s something people should see, like I had to do, that examining themselves to see if Christ is in them by faith is most important.
 
Last edited:

PeterJens

God bless you
Member
From
London
Gender
Male
Messages
745
Joined
May 18, 2017
I don’t have a difficulty believing Jesus is my savior and that he saves me - I’m not asking help for myself in this post, although when I started my journey, God had to really filter out the false teachers from my life to know who I believe, and I had to examine my own faith.

Rather, I’m simply making a point of warning. The “other people” actually is very relevant. They are like the Pharisees who shut the kingdom up from people Matt 23:13. They can do damage to other’s faith Matt 23:15. What if they are doing this and it negatively affects someone I love? Believer or not? It’s a way of thinking that is dangerous for the church Gal 2:4. It’s most relevant. And it’s something people should see, like I had to do, that examining themselves to see if Christ is in them by faith is most important.
I wholeheartedly agree with your point. Heart to skin belief is Jesus's way.
Theology is the rational framework built around a heart acknowledgement of a need.

The lie people buy into is emotions are the out of control part of ourselves ruled by original sin, over which we have no control or influence, from which Jesus saves us, but by faith not reality. Our modern world with so little personal death and very isolated lives, we can live like life is a game without hard realities or blows. With vast cities of impersonal contact we can live fantasy lives which never connect or come home, so the reality of life and faith can be kept separate, while we slowly die in a form of existential faith, which is actually a form of athiesm dressed up as belief.

My mother and father lived a life like this, born into the church and culture but never being a part of it, or letting Jesus touch their hearts or acknowledging sin or a personal debt or flaw to be resolved, or deep loneliness that needed to embrace the eternal salvation of an eternal God. This society is pompous people believing they have arrived at success while gaining nothing in the process, and just playing dreams and games along the way.

It is the hardest step to realise one is not who one thinks one is, but someone each person has to discover and work through. Some live their whole lives denying themselves and living what they think is expected, not realising this dream is a different creation, which will blow away to reveal a mess of disconnected emotions. Jesus called it building on sand, which when storms come crumbles away.

On forums I met a lady, a church leader, who knew how to demolish people in a few words, which only the listener would hear, but was devastating. She believed in miracles and wonders as Gods way, and the heart locked away, evil beyond description, to which Jesus never addressed. I simply asked her if she loved me, from the heart. There are many, maybe 50% of certain forums who are like this. Never broken and forgiven before the Lord, resurrected in joy and grace, but empowered witnessers of salvation with no change, and aggressive condemners of anyone who dares suggest sinners need to leave sin and walk in love, as earning salvation, rather than the reality of the walk of love and life.
 

PeterJens

God bless you
Member
From
London
Gender
Male
Messages
745
Joined
May 18, 2017
Hidden anger

One member decided to expose my sin by calling me a sinner but not saying in regard to what.
His intention was to bring me down, because he felt I was a sinless perfectionist, and he felt the idea that we could have faith and be enemies of God was a lie of satan, so I was working for hell, and should be brought down.

Scripture is clear. Brothers and sisters in Christ are washed clean and purified, brought into the Kingdom, and unless we know of actual sin, we are to treat them as dearly beloved people of God. It is even stronger than this, to condemn a brother or sister in Christ, is to stand in judgement over Gods work, and be worthy of judgement from God Himself.

And what justified this behaviour? I suggested God changed us so we can walk in love here on earth, as a testimony to His Holy Spirit working within us. I never claimed perfection, but rather we can walk with Jesus in His grace, getting cleansed and closer to His walk each step. But to suggest this was even possible, or the goal of discipleship for them was works salvation and the gospel of satan.

It turns out these folk often are ex-strict and particular baptists, legalists, who had in a past time justified themselves as having arrived through conformity to a group lifestyle and identity. Often a life event caused this faith to collapse, leading them to leaving the group, followed by a conversion to free grace, faith with no testimony, as true grace. The life they describe prior to their new belief is OCD guilt and condemnation, followed by superiority of arriving at the blissful state of being right.

The anger they bear against their prior legalistic group, runs so deep, any words one speaks that makes a connection and identification to this other group lets this hatred spew out. So I was worse than a murderer, so obviously deserved to die. Some got so angry they had to stop communicating with me.

But literally all I shared is what I have included here, quoting simply Jesus changes us, from the heart to skin.
And these folk know scripture from their childhood and were the most thorough legalists you could have.
But they have no clue about heart love, or transformation, or freedom from loneliness and the light of His life working in them. Loving their enemies, ie me, is clearly not something they understand, or the damage their accusations are making. And without an open heart or something with empathy or being touched, whatever I say or share made no difference. I tried the most heart stirring issues or stories, but nothing connected. It was like having a bullet proof attacker dressed as a believer but with no conscience. Because I was so evil, whatever harm they did to me made no difference. A little ironic that, testifying to the giver of love and life, but caring nothing for the harm or upset you do to another. But if you are blind to the monster within, you are blind to the monstorous behaviour that testifies that God does not dwell in ones life.

My testimony is without opening the door, these folk are forever lost, caught in their own emotional remaking of need and gospel hope, which excludes heart resolution and the giving of life and freedom to their emotional reality.

God bless you
 

Quantrill

Member
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
1,135
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
No. That’s not what I’m saying. I think I can see times where my faith isn’t as authentic as it could be. I have come to Him, many times, every day. But some people assume total salvation without ever coming to him.

Of course. Our salvation experience begins with Jesus Christ coming to Him by faith. The entrance. Then our sanctification aspect of salvation, being delivered from the world, the flesh, and the devil, is a continual process.

From God's view, all is a done deal. (Rom. 8:29-30) "...he did foreknow, he also did predestinate...he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

None of us are glorified yet. But God sees us that way.

Quantrill
 

stovebolts

Staff member
Administrator
From
Michigan
Gender
Male
Messages
17,164
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
I wholeheartedly agree with your point. Heart to skin belief is Jesus's way.
Theology is the rational framework built around a heart acknowledgement of a need.

The lie people buy into is emotions are the out of control part of ourselves ruled by original sin, over which we have no control or influence, from which Jesus saves us, but by faith not reality. Our modern world with so little personal death and very isolated lives, we can live like life is a game without hard realities or blows. With vast cities of impersonal contact we can live fantasy lives which never connect or come home, so the reality of life and faith can be kept separate, while we slowly die in a form of existential faith, which is actually a form of athiesm dressed up as belief.

My mother and father lived a life like this, born into the church and culture but never being a part of it, or letting Jesus touch their hearts or acknowledging sin or a personal debt or flaw to be resolved, or deep loneliness that needed to embrace the eternal salvation of an eternal God. This society is pompous people believing they have arrived at success while gaining nothing in the process, and just playing dreams and games along the way.

It is the hardest step to realise one is not who one thinks one is, but someone each person has to discover and work through. Some live their whole lives denying themselves and living what they think is expected, not realising this dream is a different creation, which will blow away to reveal a mess of disconnected emotions. Jesus called it building on sand, which when storms come crumbles away.

On forums I met a lady, a church leader, who knew how to demolish people in a few words, which only the listener would hear, but was devastating. She believed in miracles and wonders as Gods way, and the heart locked away, evil beyond description, to which Jesus never addressed. I simply asked her if she loved me, from the heart. There are many, maybe 50% of certain forums who are like this. Never broken and forgiven before the Lord, resurrected in joy and grace, but empowered witnessers of salvation with no change, and aggressive condemners of anyone who dares suggest sinners need to leave sin and walk in love, as earning salvation, rather than the reality of the walk of love and life.
Thank you for sharing.
 

for_his_glory

Light in darkness
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
18,448
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Hidden anger

One member decided to expose my sin by calling me a sinner but not saying in regard to what.
His intention was to bring me down, because he felt I was a sinless perfectionist, and he felt the idea that we could have faith and be enemies of God was a lie of satan, so I was working for hell, and should be brought down.

Scripture is clear. Brothers and sisters in Christ are washed clean and purified, brought into the Kingdom, and unless we know of actual sin, we are to treat them as dearly beloved people of God. It is even stronger than this, to condemn a brother or sister in Christ, is to stand in judgement over Gods work, and be worthy of judgement from God Himself.

And what justified this behaviour? I suggested God changed us so we can walk in love here on earth, as a testimony to His Holy Spirit working within us. I never claimed perfection, but rather we can walk with Jesus in His grace, getting cleansed and closer to His walk each step. But to suggest this was even possible, or the goal of discipleship for them was works salvation and the gospel of satan.

It turns out these folk often are ex-strict and particular baptists, legalists, who had in a past time justified themselves as having arrived through conformity to a group lifestyle and identity. Often a life event caused this faith to collapse, leading them to leaving the group, followed by a conversion to free grace, faith with no testimony, as true grace. The life they describe prior to their new belief is OCD guilt and condemnation, followed by superiority of arriving at the blissful state of being right.

The anger they bear against their prior legalistic group, runs so deep, any words one speaks that makes a connection and identification to this other group lets this hatred spew out. So I was worse than a murderer, so obviously deserved to die. Some got so angry they had to stop communicating with me.

But literally all I shared is what I have included here, quoting simply Jesus changes us, from the heart to skin.
And these folk know scripture from their childhood and were the most thorough legalists you could have.
But they have no clue about heart love, or transformation, or freedom from loneliness and the light of His life working in them. Loving their enemies, ie me, is clearly not something they understand, or the damage their accusations are making. And without an open heart or something with empathy or being touched, whatever I say or share made no difference. I tried the most heart stirring issues or stories, but nothing connected. It was like having a bullet proof attacker dressed as a believer but with no conscience. Because I was so evil, whatever harm they did to me made no difference. A little ironic that, testifying to the giver of love and life, but caring nothing for the harm or upset you do to another. But if you are blind to the monster within, you are blind to the monstorous behaviour that testifies that God does not dwell in ones life.

My testimony is without opening the door, these folk are forever lost, caught in their own emotional remaking of need and gospel hope, which excludes heart resolution and the giving of life and freedom to their emotional reality.

God bless you
And then they nailed Him to a cross thinking they would silence Him.
 

Blade

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
55
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Thanks OP for sharing this .. its something I have not heard of.

I think about this and there are things I can not say like most many or few. Well its only when He shows me the heart and that is only to help them, to heal you name it. Forgive me but we talk about somethings regarding others that are not true. If only God can see the heart man the flesh (Samuel) then what are we truly talking about? Are we not just guessing? A I know He has not told us this about His creation.

I wonder what the thief knew about Christ. He knew enough that Christ should not be up there yet they should. He just said remember me and is now with Christ in paradise. The OT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be delivered/saved. NT anyone (everyone) that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved.

What are they to be in love with Him and turned away from all sin and doing works of righteousness to be saved? Or maybe just maybe thats Him talking to you .. not what others should be doing but you should be doing. See we can't save anyone. See I can only speak for me.. I judge way to much just on what I see in others. It was not till He showed me someones heart. I didn't ask... it was during a fight. The person was so mean saying oh just awful things yet this love came over me and I saw right to the heart.. oh their heart was nothing like the out side.

So we say things that we truly don't understand or can even know. Again its only seeing something He shows me that I find ... I didn't know Him. Showing me people .. not saved not lost just people. And He was crying so hard because not ONE knew how much He loved them. For me man says how easy it is to be lost.. I believe it is far easier to be saved found by God then lost. Something I have no control over. He does not need us.. He uses us...yet He will make sure everyone has a choice. No one is lost because no one told them. For me that person falls under "if you were bind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains."
 

PeterJens

God bless you
Member
From
London
Gender
Male
Messages
745
Joined
May 18, 2017
Thanks OP for sharing this .. its something I have not heard of.

I think about this and there are things I can not say like most many or few. Well its only when He shows me the heart and that is only to help them, to heal you name it. Forgive me but we talk about somethings regarding others that are not true. If only God can see the heart man the flesh (Samuel) then what are we truly talking about? Are we not just guessing? A I know He has not told us this about His creation.

I wonder what the thief knew about Christ. He knew enough that Christ should not be up there yet they should. He just said remember me and is now with Christ in paradise. The OT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be delivered/saved. NT anyone (everyone) that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved.

What are they to be in love with Him and turned away from all sin and doing works of righteousness to be saved? Or maybe just maybe thats Him talking to you .. not what others should be doing but you should be doing. See we can't save anyone. See I can only speak for me.. I judge way to much just on what I see in others. It was not till He showed me someones heart. I didn't ask... it was during a fight. The person was so mean saying oh just awful things yet this love came over me and I saw right to the heart.. oh their heart was nothing like the out side.

So we say things that we truly don't understand or can even know. Again its only seeing something He shows me that I find ... I didn't know Him. Showing me people .. not saved not lost just people. And He was crying so hard because not ONE knew how much He loved them. For me man says how easy it is to be lost.. I believe it is far easier to be saved found by God then lost. Something I have no control over. He does not need us.. He uses us...yet He will make sure everyone has a choice. No one is lost because no one told them. For me that person falls under "if you were bind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains."
"I believe it is far easier to be saved found by God then lost."

I understand this point of view. Peter expressed it as

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
1 Peter 2:21-22

When we see with our hearts, when the light is switched on, when we are free, when purity expresses itself in us, then we know it is easier being saved than lost.

But Jesus pointed out the lost are imprisoned by their sin and their perspective, bound by emotion and who they are, which means they are enemies of God and cannot agree or walk in His ways. For them the words of the sermon on the mount are condemnation and not freedom, are death and a curse.

When you begin to see the layers of love and faithfulness, establishing relationships and care one with another, then you begin to see the depth of complexity over human life and its interactions. As Peter exclaimed when the rich young man was rejected,

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matt 19:24-26

So Jesus describes salvation as being impossible for us, but possible with God.
God bless you
 
Top