AVBunyan Has Had Enough – I’m Out

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan Has Had Enough – I’m Out

AVBuyan Has Had Enough – I’m Out

Greetings to fellow grace believers.

Thanks for putting up with my posts that sought to defend and expound on the great doctrine of justification by faith. My real intent was never to discus this OSAS for the issue is justification and that is what I sought to do though done rather poorly I sadly admit.

It is pretty obvious that nobody got anything from these posts which is fine but I did. These discussions helped me fine-tune my understanding even more of this vital doctrine. Plus, this session helped me to see even more that the vital issues today are final authority and justification.

These discussions furthered my belief that lost people cannot and do not want to see pure grace.

Though it got a bit touchy I feel all parties were cordial and courteous (given the subject matter) and I have no complaints - if any I was a little more smart-mouthed than I should have been and for that I do apologize - my conversation at times was not becoming of the gospel of Christ.

I still maintain that unfortunately the majority of even believing saints in Christianity cannot expound the doctrine of justification. And when lost people seek to make an issue out of OSAS while ignoring what the scriptures say about justification it gets even uglier. But what can one expect based upon:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

At any rate God tells us to redeem the time for the days are evil – and endless debates is not redeeming the time – one day I’ll learn!

So, to the saints - I’ll either see you in jail (for being persecuted for your faith) or in glory (for you are safe in Christ).

To the lost – Sadly, I’ll see you in your filthy rags at the great white throne of judgment.

God bless and good bye! 8-)

 

[farley]

AV,

You can't just pick and choose the verses that you want to follow and ignore all the rest. You've got to adhere to them all.

Titus 2:15 KJV
(15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I, for one, don't agree with you on a lot of things, but I've sure learned a lot about the Scriptures that I didn't know before jousting with you.

I know that you were concerned about the state of my soul, or you would not have spent so much of your time responding to my questions.

Just be aware that I feel the same concern for you and all here.

So...park those Wrangler's, and keep your intake open whether or not your exhaust is running.

farley

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: AVBunyan Has Had Enough – I’m Out

AVBuyan Has Had Enough – I’m Out

Greetings to fellow grace believers.

Thanks for putting up with my posts that sought to defend and expound on the great doctrine of justification by faith. My real intent was never to discus this OSAS for the issue is justification and that is what I sought to do though done rather poorly I sadly admit.

It is pretty obvious that nobody got anything from these posts which is fine but I did. These discussions helped me fine-tune my understanding even more of this vital doctrine. Plus, this session helped me to see even more that the vital issues today are final authority and justification.

These discussions furthered my belief that lost people cannot and do not want to see pure grace.

Though it got a bit touchy I feel all parties were cordial and courteous (given the subject matter) and I have no complaints - if any I was a little more smart-mouthed than I should have been and for that I do apologize - my conversation at times was not becoming of the gospel of Christ.

I still maintain that unfortunately the majority of even believing saints in Christianity cannot expound the doctrine of justification. And when lost people seek to make an issue out of OSAS while ignoring what the scriptures say about justification it gets even uglier. But what can one expect based upon:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

At any rate God tells us to redeem the time for the days are evil – and endless debates is not redeeming the time – one day I’ll learn!

So, to the saints - I’ll either see you in jail (for being persecuted for your faith) or in glory (for you are safe in Christ).

To the lost – Sadly, I’ll see you in your filthy rags at the great white throne of judgment.

God bless and good bye! 8-)

Wow- what a bizarre post.
Jail? As far as I know, it is still legal in these United States to make poorly defended and circular arguments.
Best of luck to you in your future endeavors, should they not include cursing those who disagree with you.

 

[Klee shay]

There is a time for conversion, a time for study, a time for debate, a time for ministering scriptures and then there is a time for rest. Even the Lord had a day of rest. When God rests we should rest also.

 

[Free]

But what can one expect based upon:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And one last spiritually superior flame as he leaves. Nice. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

Av is simply telling the truth. The bible says we are saved by Grace, not works. Some people don't believe that and will not change their stance. So there comes a point when arguing with them becomes a waste of time. Av believes the bible and so do I. I commend him for standing up for it.

 

[Free]

Av is simply telling the truth.

The truth isn't that he is right, it is that he thinks he is spiritually superior and that those who don't believe as he does are "natural," that is, not saved.

Some people don't believe that and will not change their stance.

The same goes for those on the other side.

Av believes the bible and so do I

And here is your spiritually superiority showing once again. If that is what your interpretation leads to, I don't want anything to do with it. I've already shown the fallaciousness of that line of argument anyway.

 

[Heidi]

Av is simply telling the truth.

The truth isn't that he is right, it is that he thinks he is spiritually superior and that those who don't believe as he does are "natural," that is, not saved.

Some people don't believe that and will not change their stance.

The same goes for those on the other side.

Av believes the bible and so do I

And here is your spiritually superiority showing once again. If that is what your interpretation leads to, I don't want anything to do with it. I've already shown the fallaciousness of that line of argument anyway.

I don't hear any feeling of superiority in Av at all. Only the humility that comes from giving the credit for everything good in him to God.

You also think you are right, do you not? or do you have your opinions because you thing they are wrong? :o So what are you doing that is any different than what you criticize Av for? :o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

 

[AVBunyan]

Setting the record straight

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

I have tried to say away but I will enter this den of confusion till at least this thread has died out.

Example - If you speak in tongues and I disagree I don't believe that automatically makes you lost. If you disagree with me over minor issues then fine this is a forum - that doesn't make you lost - is that clear?
Did I put it waiste high for your folks?

But, if you believe your efforts and works have anything to do with your salvation then according to Paul (and yes he wrote inspired scripture) you are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm - yes, my conviction and I stand in pretty good company here. You have your convictions and I have mine.

The scriptures have labeled you if you have rejected grace. Don't shake your fist at me - go knash your teeth at a King James Bible and God. I have just taken your writings and posts and compared them with simple scripture and you have been found wanting just like you say you have done to me.

Now, it appears that it was OK for farley to openly judge me as lost and not a peep from you "nice folks" in my defense - you probably liked that. But when I pull out the scriptures and apply them then it becomes, "AV is judging us!" My, my what a double standard we have here.

The problem with some of you folks is that it appears that some of you may go to wimpy churches and sit under wimpy preachers and you are not used to having the scriptures rub you raw. The old nature just can't take authoritative scripture. When you get your feathers ruffled you blame AV for being judging - whiny excuse.

So, I can take people disagreeing with me - been doing this for almost 3 years on 7 forums - no big deal. If it bothered me I wouldn't have lasted this long. And with what I believed I've been in the lions' den more than some of you have - you take the popular view so you have been safe in your little sandbox.

But as Heidi hinted at - there is just so much one can do - you just can't keep flogging a dead horse. If you folks want to continue to think you have to be obedient and repentant to earn favor with God then be my guest!!!! Your funeral - but when you promote it then I will step in to seek to "unpromote" your teqchingsfor a whilte so other folks can see grace.

My main reason for leaving this forum or any other is I've to the conclusion that, for the most part, forums are a waste of time and I feel somewhat foolish for trying but I felt led to at least to try to pormote what I believe to be vital issues for today. I've seen very few people changed what they bellieved anyway.

My original intent years ago for coming on board was to learn what others were really believing and to promote three issues or doctrines:
1. Justification by faith alone
2. The authority of the King James Bible
3. Right division as expounded by Paul

I got side-tracked a bit but the above were the pegs God hung me on.

That being said - May God bless 8-)

 

[Heidi]

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

Do you think atheists are lost or found? What do you think the bible calls them? Why do you think the bible calls them that? Do you think atheists would be upset about it? Of course they would! So were the Pharisees when Jesus called them hypocrites. But does that make it any less true? Of course not.

 

[thessalonian]

But, if you believe your efforts and works have anything to do with your salvation then according to Paul (and yes he wrote inspired scripture) you are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm - yes, my conviction and I stand in pretty good company here. You have your convictions and I have mine.

Romans 2
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.


Matt 25
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jesus and Paul being compared to a goose in a snowstorm? Shocking. :o
Interestingly enough I've hunted geese in snowstorms and they seem to know where they are going. The power of God working in us, producing thirty, sixty, or one hundred fold AV and Heidi say has no power. Very sad. .

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

:angel: Blessings

 

[Heidi]

How can we trust God if the following words of his are not true?:

1)"No one can snatch them out of my hand."
2) "the one who is in you is greater than the the one in the world."
3) "I will never abandon you."
4) "you have been marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance..."
5) "In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an iheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heaven for you."
6) "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you."
7) "A man is a slave to whatever masters him."
8) "You are slaves to righeousness."
9) "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither present nor future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

So again, how can we trust God if the above words of his are not true? But those who say we can lose our salvation are saying those words are not true.

But since the bible does not lie, then of course these things are true. So anyone who comes up with an interpretation that contradicts the above passages is passing along a false doctrine.

Therefore, works come from faith. Faith has to exist first. We are saved by grace and from that thankfulness come good works. This interpretation contradicts nothing in scripture. But the interpretation that works save, not only contradict the above passages but many others as well.

So I suggest that all those people who believe that works save, quote passages that talk about grace also. But those people never do. They therefore are passing along false teachings because they do not believe the whole bible.

 

[Free]

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

Do you think atheists are lost or found? What do you think the bible calls them? Why do you think the bible calls them that? Do you think atheists would be upset about it? Of course they would! So were the Pharisees when Jesus called them hypocrites. But does that make it any less true? Of course not.

What are you saying Heidi?

 

[Heidi]

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

Do you think atheists are lost or found? What do you think the bible calls them? Why do you think the bible calls them that? Do you think atheists would be upset about it? Of course they would! So were the Pharisees when Jesus called them hypocrites. But does that make it any less true? Of course not.

What are you saying Heidi?

I am saying that there are indeed some people who can be considered lost. And again, I'm sure they would be upset about the fact that they are called lost. But does that make it any less true?

Do you think those who do not believe the whole bible are lost or found? :o

 

[thessalonian]

Do you think those who do not believe the whole bible are lost or found? :o

Your question implies that the one who believes the whole Bible understands it all correctly and believes EXACTLY what it means. So do you think you have it all right Heidi? What does "beleive the whole Bible" mean? Does one misunderstanding caste one in to the outer darkness? How do you know that your understanding is correct?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

"Thinking that you are right" and labeling those who disagree with you as "lost" are two entirely separate propositions... to most of us, anyway.

Do you think atheists are lost or found? What do you think the bible calls them? Why do you think the bible calls them that? Do you think atheists would be upset about it? Of course they would! So were the Pharisees when Jesus called them hypocrites. But does that make it any less true? Of course not.

At first glance, this is a bizarre non-sequitur: I point out something you've done to other Christians, and you counter with some question about the condition of those who call themselves 'athiests.'

But considered in toto, it all adds up:
You see the world in terms of us/them, and you are (naturally) part of the 'us.' Anyone who questions you or the 'us' -as you perceive it/them- is a priori counted among the adversary's legions.

Those who are not against us, Christ would tell you fire- calling-downers, are with us.
But those types of grey areas don't fit your black and white salvation template.

Be careful to remember this: blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. And Lord knows we all need mercy.

 

[thessalonian]

Therefore, works come from faith. Faith has to exist first.

I agree so what's you point. Works not done in faith are filthy rags.
An unregenerate man can build a skyscraper theoretically and fill it with poor and feed them and he would still end up in hell.

We are saved by grace and from that thankfulness come good works.

The works don't come from grace? It's just our being thankful? We can do thirty, sixty or 100 fold on our own, being thankful?

This interpretation contradicts nothing in scripture. But the interpretation that works save, not only contradict the above passages but many others as well. [/quotes]

You fail to note the distintion between "get saved" and "continuing in salvation". The fact of the matter is that at judgement if one does not have the works spoken of in Matt 25 and Romans 2:4-8, one will spend eternity in hell. That's what Matt 25 and Romans 2 say quite clearly. Eph 3 says that God gives us the grace to do the works. ALL IS GRACE. We are saved by GRACE ALONE and that grace is not just a one time event but God continues to pour grace upon our lives. This contradicts no scripture.

[quote:9e816]So I suggest that all those people who believe that works save, quote passages that talk about grace also. But those people never do. They therefore are passing along false teachings because they do not believe the whole bible.

[/quote:9e816]

We don't? You bear false witness Heidi. We are saved by grace through faith. What you do not understand is that faith, grace, and charity cannot be compartmentalized as you want to do. Further you fail to distinguish the works of the law from works of charity. Love of fellow man is not a part of your salvation equation it would seem. Is 1 makes pretty clear the distintion between works of the law and charity. The very works of the law he commanded he abhors because the Jews do not care for the widow and the orphan. That is exactly the premise behind the judgement scene in Matt 25. God never gave up on the widow and the orphan. He now gives us the grace to truly love others. You better be about doing (bearing fruit) it or you will be cut down and cast in to the fire.

You further do not understand grace if you think it is a one time shot. God fed the Jews throughout their trials through the desert. He feeds us with grace throughout our lives in him.
Blessings

 

[Heidi]

Therefore, works come from faith. Faith has to exist first.

I agree so what's you point. Works not done in faith are filthy rags.
An unregenerate man can build a skyscraper theoretically and fill it with poor and feed them and he would still end up in hell.

[quote:5a84a] We are saved by grace and from that thankfulness come good works.

The works don't come from grace? It's just our being thankful? We can do thirty, sixty or 100 fold on our own, being thankful?

This interpretation contradicts nothing in scripture. But the interpretation that works save, not only contradict the above passages but many others as well. [/quotes]

You fail to note the distintion between "get saved" and "continuing in salvation". The fact of the matter is that at judgement if one does not have the works spoken of in Matt 25 and Romans 2:4-8, one will spend eternity in hell. That's what Matt 25 and Romans 2 say quite clearly. Eph 3 says that God gives us the grace to do the works. ALL IS GRACE. We are saved by GRACE ALONE and that grace is not just a one time event but God continues to pour grace upon our lives. This contradicts no scripture.

[quote:5a84a]So I suggest that all those people who believe that works save, quote passages that talk about grace also. But those people never do. They therefore are passing along false teachings because they do not believe the whole bible.

We don't? You bear false witness Heidi. We are saved by grace through faith. What you do not understand is that faith, grace, and charity cannot be compartmentalized as you want to do. Further you fail to distinguish the works of the law from works of charity. Love of fellow man is not a part of your salvation equation it would seem. Is 1 makes pretty clear the distintion between works of the law and charity. The very works of the law he commanded he abhors because the Jews do not care for the widow and the orphan. That is exactly the premise behind the judgement scene in Matt 25. God never gave up on the widow and the orphan. He now gives us the grace to truly love others. You better be about doing (bearing fruit) it or you will be cut down and cast in to the fire.

You further do not understand grace if you think it is a one time shot. God fed the Jews throughout their trials through the desert. He feeds us with grace throughout our lives in him.
Blessings[/quote:5a84a][/quote:5a84a]


You know, Thessalonian, you must not read my posts because all I talk about is "love is the fulfillment of the law" In fact, I talk about love more than anything else.

But those who think that works save, talk about works more than anything else, including love. You do not realize that loving God or our neighbor is not a work. It is response from the Spirit. But since you're adept at twisting people's words, then I don't view your posts as credible. Therefore, since you do not read my posts, or if you do, you lie about them, then you have no valid comments about them.

If you ask to be rescued from a burning fire and finally someone rescues you, how would you feel? If you are not thankful, then how could you understand exactly what your rescuer did for you? :o

Do you know what Jesus means when he says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks"? Do you also know what Paul means by "love is the fulfillment of the law"? It doesn't appear so. Paul said that if we have not love then everything we do, including what we consider good works are meaningless. Do you agree with him?

If so, then again, for the umpteenth time, all we need is love. And Paul agrees with that which is why he said; "The law can be summed up in one word; love."

 

[thessalonian]

You know, Thessalonian, you must not read my posts because all I talk about is "love is the fulfillment of the law" In fact, I talk about love more than anything else.[quote:0d5f6]

Can't say as I've read them all. I do read the ones top to bottom that are to me. I just did a search and it seems you never posted it in response to me. I commend you for saying it because I agree with it. Glad we have it cleared up and I apologize for any offense if I misrepresented you.

[quote:0d5f6]But those who think that works save, talk about works more than anything else, including love. You do not realize that loving God or our neighbor is not a work. It is response from the Spirit. But since you're adept at twisting people's words, then I don't view your posts as credible. Therefore, since you do not read my posts, or if you do, you lie about them, then you have no valid comments about them.

Loving others and charity are in fact a work according to scripture.

2Cor.8
[7] Now as you excel in everything -- in faith, in utterance, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in your love for us -- see that you excel in this

gracious work also

.



Gal.5
[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

We have a difference in vocabulary it seems that makes it hard for us to understand one another.
There are works of the law and there are works of love. The later has value in the new covenant. It did in the old as well to tell the truth. God says I have had enough of your sacrifice, care for the widow and the orphan in Is 1.

If you ask to be rescued from a burning fire and finally someone rescues you, how would you feel? If you are not thankful, then how could you understand exactly what your rescuer did for you? :o

Is your point that out of love you would do something nice? Most certainly our good works must be motivated by love of God. From that flows love of neighbor.

Do you know what Jesus means when he says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks"? Do you also know what Paul means by "love is the fulfillment of the law"? It doesn't appear so. Paul said that if we have not love then everything we do, including what we consider good works are meaningless. Do you agree with him?

My suggestion is that you knock off the condescention about your supposedly superior knowledge of scripture and assumed ignorance on my part. If you have read my posts you should know by now I agree with him.

If so, then again, for the umpteenth time, all we need is love. And Paul agrees with that which is why he said; "The law can be summed up in one word; love."

[/quote:0d5f6][/quote:0d5f6]

I agree.