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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
Some believers would say yes and others would say no to this. It is basically a read the scriptures and decide for yourself.
Argument for yes:
Those that say yes use Acts 2:38 that instructs, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Many say this is a commandment to believers that we must be baptized as Jesus was and this ensures our salvation.
Some also say if you are not fully submerged underwater like Jesus was it does not count as baptism.
Argument for no:
Many say that contextually speaking that Mark 16:16 has some translation issues and may not be properly portrayed.
Some say that because the thief on the cross next to Jesus that was saved and not baptized that it must not be a requirement.
There are also considerations such as, "What if someone lives where they do not have the water to become baptized? What if they are in prison and cannot get baptized (although some prisons have implememted available baptisms)? What if they cannot be submerged, but only sprinkled with water?"
What do you think?
Argument for yes:
Those that say yes use Acts 2:38 that instructs, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Many say this is a commandment to believers that we must be baptized as Jesus was and this ensures our salvation.
Some also say if you are not fully submerged underwater like Jesus was it does not count as baptism.
Argument for no:
Many say that contextually speaking that Mark 16:16 has some translation issues and may not be properly portrayed.
Some say that because the thief on the cross next to Jesus that was saved and not baptized that it must not be a requirement.
There are also considerations such as, "What if someone lives where they do not have the water to become baptized? What if they are in prison and cannot get baptized (although some prisons have implememted available baptisms)? What if they cannot be submerged, but only sprinkled with water?"
What do you think?
Concerning the thief on the cross, I think it is presumptuous to imagine that he was not baptized, considering the scriptures describe the ministry of John as covering all the Jewish region (Luke 3:2-3; Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:5; Acts 13:24), and baptizing everyone, save the lawyers and religious leaders (Luke 7:29-30). In light of the scriptures, I think it is reasonable to imagine the thief as previously baptized by John, otherwise, there would be an internal contradiction. (It is easy to imagine the thief as someone who perhaps turned himself in after believing, or was caught after believing, etc.)
Concerning any translation issues with Mark 16:16, I've never heard of that before: what I have heard is that Mark 16:16 is rejected outright as not being part of the bible: this rejection is upheld by many modern textual critics; however the translation of the existing manuscripts is universally agreed upon, as far as I know.
Concerning not having water, I think a cursory look at the God of the bible will show, that providing water for His people has never been a problem for Him. Moreover, the scriptures state that God has predestined us according to His foreknowledge, therefore, it follows, that if God foreknows those who would choose to follow Him, then He knows how to provide for their needs. To be concerned about not having water to baptize is not reasonable, because if the God we're talking about cannot provide water for His people, then it is not the God of the bible.
PS: Concerning Prisons, by the grace of God, I was able to baptize four inmates in a trashcan that we snuck into the shower and filled with water. I know that there are other difficult situations where getting water is not as easy, but God only requires that we try to obey Him, He will do the rest.
In summary, I think the act of baptism does nothing, but the obedience to Christ does everything. A good example of this is Simon the sorcerer, who after believing and being baptized, remained with the same unrepentant dark-heart after gain.
Without repentance, baptism is nothing, nor is anything else that we do. We must first obey the gospel by repenting and turning to Christ as our actual Lord (Master), otherwise, we will end up listening to man's imaginations on how to please God, instead of Gods commands on how we should obey Him.
I do say yeah, for baptism, not because I think it is some special trick into heaven, but because Christ is actually my Lord, and whatever He commands is what I must try to do, and when I fall short, He will do the rest.
So what do you think about baptism?
Further, concerning Mark 16:16, I don't agree with the assessment of most modern textual critics concerning Mark 16:16: I believe it is the word of Christ, and must therefore be obeyed.
I rely on the earliest published bibles as an authority which surpasses any modern published work; and that not because of some unfounded nostalgia, but because it doesn't make sense to me that God would not be able to preserve such critical information regarding salvation: truly, I see most modern works as an attempt by the powers of darkness to thwart the truth as much as possible.
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.
This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.
One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.
John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.
Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.
Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.
This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.
One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.
John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.
Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.
Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.
Hey, I'm just a nobody that fears God and His Son, so if God baptized Noah, and had Moses baptize Israel, and had His Son baptized by John, and had His Son command baptism, and Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize, and He commanded them to teach baptism, then I'm sorry, but that's the way I'm going to follow, instead of any other way, regardless of how many clever people may suggest otherwise.
Thanks anyway for your reply, but I cannot agree with you.
Please reconsider my above responses to similar objections, and feel free to question me on anything that I've said.
I am at your service.
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
It sounds like you have your stance figured out for yourself.
I have clearly been on both sides of the baptism argument.
I believe that it is strange to assume the thief was baptized. If he was baptized yet his heart was unrepentant and it counted for nothing and why would he have found John in the first place? How do we know the thief was Jewish? What if he smuggled in from another nation? Would they mention the thief on the cross next to Christ in the context they did if he was once a holy man? These are all things we don't know.
I always think, "What if someone makes a decision for God on their death bed and then flatline? What if they are too ill or frail to handle a baptism? What if someone makes a decision for Christ, wants to be baptized Sunday at church, yet dies in a car accident that Saturday? What about these people? Was their faith not good enough?"
I have clearly been on both sides of the baptism argument.
I believe that it is strange to assume the thief was baptized. If he was baptized yet his heart was unrepentant and it counted for nothing and why would he have found John in the first place? How do we know the thief was Jewish? What if he smuggled in from another nation? Would they mention the thief on the cross next to Christ in the context they did if he was once a holy man? These are all things we don't know.
I always think, "What if someone makes a decision for God on their death bed and then flatline? What if they are too ill or frail to handle a baptism? What if someone makes a decision for Christ, wants to be baptized Sunday at church, yet dies in a car accident that Saturday? What about these people? Was their faith not good enough?"
Be at peace, sister, our God and Father has predestined us by His foreknowledge, wherefore, none that are His can be lost, for that is our seal in the foundation of our God, that He knows those who are His.
And yes, I've made my mind up many years ago to simply obey the words and actions of my Master, that is why my effort is to be as subtle as a snake, yet as harmless as a dove, and as bold as a lion, but as gentle as a lamb--because that is what my Lord did while here with us.
And yes, I've made my mind up many years ago to simply obey the words and actions of my Master, that is why my effort is to be as subtle as a snake, yet as harmless as a dove, and as bold as a lion, but as gentle as a lamb--because that is what my Lord did while here with us.
Religiot
Could you give me the scriptures where God baptized Noah and that Moses baptized Israel? Maybe I have missed that in my studies. There are two different types of baptism. One is in water for remission of sins like John the Baptist did calling all to repent and the other that Peter was talking about in being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Another question I have is found in Acts 2:14-36 we read about Peter preaching to the crowd that was gathered on the day of Pentecost. These were not only devout Jews from many nations, but also Jews that were gathered together that day that traveled to Jerusalem for the the Feast of Weeks. Were they all about 3000 of them baptized in water that day or were they baptized in the Holy Spirit?
After Peter was done preaching to them they were pricked/convicted in there hearts and asked Peter what they should do. In verse 38 Peter said "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now keep reading until you get to vs. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Around 3000 were baptized that day, not in water, but baptized in the Holy Spirit just as the disciples were in the upper room.
John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.
Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.
The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.
Could you give me the scriptures where God baptized Noah and that Moses baptized Israel? Maybe I have missed that in my studies. There are two different types of baptism. One is in water for remission of sins like John the Baptist did calling all to repent and the other that Peter was talking about in being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Another question I have is found in Acts 2:14-36 we read about Peter preaching to the crowd that was gathered on the day of Pentecost. These were not only devout Jews from many nations, but also Jews that were gathered together that day that traveled to Jerusalem for the the Feast of Weeks. Were they all about 3000 of them baptized in water that day or were they baptized in the Holy Spirit?
After Peter was done preaching to them they were pricked/convicted in there hearts and asked Peter what they should do. In verse 38 Peter said "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now keep reading until you get to vs. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Around 3000 were baptized that day, not in water, but baptized in the Holy Spirit just as the disciples were in the upper room.
John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God, Romans 8:6, 7.
Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.
The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.
Correct me if im wrong but don't all Christians get baptized?
Yes, my pleasure.
The follow links will take you to scripture illustrations of Noah being baptized and Moses baptizing Israel, respectively:
Baptism Postponement - 033.jpg
drive.google.com
Baptism Postponement - 055.jpg
drive.google.com
Yes, they do.
This is not because water can save us, but because obedience to Christ saves us.
Christ is the Master of the universe, and is the author of salvation to all who obey Him.
All men must believe Christ, that they must turn from their way to obey His way.
Yes, my pleasure.
The follow links will take you to scripture illustrations of Noah being baptized and Moses baptizing Israel, respectively:
Baptism Postponement - 033.jpg
Baptism Postponement - 055.jpg
Those links would not open for me so could you just give me the scriptures. Thank you
Concerning your last question, I must answer with a question, because the underlying presuppositions in your last question are too numerous for me to answer simply; please allow me this, and please bear with me.
I'm very sorry to hear that. Yes, of course:
1 Peter 3:20-21, (KJV):
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 10:1-2, (KJV):
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Religiot
With all due respect 1 Peter 3:20 says saved by water, but that is referring to the flood, not being baptized in water for repentance since Noah already had faith in God as he found favor in Him as God spared Noah and his family from drowning in the flood like all the other living things, Genesis 6:6-18. Vs. 21 Noah and the flood was likened unto John the Baptist baptism in water as it was for repentance only in having a good conscience towards God as by God's grace through faith (Christ Jesus) we are saved, Ephesians 2:8. It's not the water that saves us, but only that of an outward appearance that you have faith in Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1, 2 is not about water baptism, but God only parting the Red Sea in order for Moses and the Israelites to cross over into the promised land of Canaan as once they were all safe God caused the waters to return to cover the chariots, the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh, Exodus 14:13-31.
There are five requirements to Salvation
1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15
Christian Baptism
1. Commanded by Christ - Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16
2. Commanded by Peter - Acts 10:44-48
3. Commanded by Christian ministers - Acts 2:1, 41
Places of Baptism
1. Jordan - Matthew 3:13-16; Mark 1:5-10
2. Jerusalem - Acts 2:5, 41 (actually read the whole chapter)
3. Samaria - Acts 8:14-17
4. A house - Acts 10:44-48
5. A jail - Acts 16:25-33
Characteristics of Baptism
1. By water - Acts 10:47
2. Only one - Ephesians 4:5
3. Necessary - Acts 2:38, 41
4. Source of power - Acts 1:5, 8
5. Follows faith - Acts 18:8
Symbolism of Baptism
1. Forecast in prophecy - Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:16-21
2. Prefigured in types- 1 Corinthians 10:2; 1 Peter 3:20, 21
3. Visualized by the Spirit's descent - Acts 2:3, 4, 41; Acts 10:44-48
4. Expressive of Spiritual unity - 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27, 28
5. Figurative of regeneration - John 3:3, 5, 6; Romans 6:3, 4, 11
6. Illustrative of cleansing - Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5
With all due respect 1 Peter 3:20 says saved by water, but that is referring to the flood, not being baptized in water for repentance since Noah already had faith in God as he found favor in Him as God spared Noah and his family from drowning in the flood like all the other living things, Genesis 6:6-18. Vs. 21 Noah and the flood was likened unto John the Baptist baptism in water as it was for repentance only in having a good conscience towards God as by God's grace through faith (Christ Jesus) we are saved, Ephesians 2:8. It's not the water that saves us, but only that of an outward appearance that you have faith in Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1, 2 is not about water baptism, but God only parting the Red Sea in order for Moses and the Israelites to cross over into the promised land of Canaan as once they were all safe God caused the waters to return to cover the chariots, the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh, Exodus 14:13-31.
There are five requirements to Salvation
1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15
Christian Baptism
1. Commanded by Christ - Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16
2. Commanded by Peter - Acts 10:44-48
3. Commanded by Christian ministers - Acts 2:1, 41
Places of Baptism
1. Jordan - Matthew 3:13-16; Mark 1:5-10
2. Jerusalem - Acts 2:5, 41 (actually read the whole chapter)
3. Samaria - Acts 8:14-17
4. A house - Acts 10:44-48
5. A jail - Acts 16:25-33
Characteristics of Baptism
1. By water - Acts 10:47
2. Only one - Ephesians 4:5
3. Necessary - Acts 2:38, 41
4. Source of power - Acts 1:5, 8
5. Follows faith - Acts 18:8
Symbolism of Baptism
1. Forecast in prophecy - Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:16-21
2. Prefigured in types- 1 Corinthians 10:2; 1 Peter 3:20, 21
3. Visualized by the Spirit's descent - Acts 2:3, 4, 41; Acts 10:44-48
4. Expressive of Spiritual unity - 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27, 28
5. Figurative of regeneration - John 3:3, 5, 6; Romans 6:3, 4, 11
6. Illustrative of cleansing - Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5
If you would've read my previous replies to others, you would have known that I do not interpret those scriptures to mean what you have said.
Further, I personally don't know of anyone who interprets those scriptures like you have wrongly said that I do...
1 Peter 3:20-21, says plainly that baptism is a like figure of the flood of Noah, and that it is not the putting away of the dirt on our skin, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.
With all respect, I think it's plain to most bible readers that this passage uses the flood of Noah as an allegory to baptism...
However, I'm more concerned with your contracted citation of Paul--only partly quoting him to make your point--when you ought to have quoted him more fully:
Ephesians 2:8-10:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Paul teaches that there's is nothing anyone can do to earn salvation, and that is because it is a gift, which brings about true holiness in those who truly love God, thus Christian works are not to merit salvation, but are simply in obedience to our new Lord, out of a desire to please Him, because we love Him.
Concerning 1Corinthians, the logic is the same, it is simply an allegory to baptism...
I must warn you, concerning the way you handle the scriptures: partial scripture quotations that obscure meaning and contradict complete quotations are a tool Satan tried with the Lord at the end of His forty day fast, when he quoted Psalm 91:11-12, he left out the middle, which says "...to keep thee in all thy ways." The way he quoted it, changed it's meaning, for the original passage is referring to the ways of the righteous, and how the angels prevent the harm of stumbling on a stone, yet Satan used it to mean jumping off of a cliff! The Lord simply responded by quoting another scripture that demonstrated the contradiction inherent in Satan's contracted quotation.
Be warned further, that the writings of Paul are the only writings foretold to be twisted by the unlearned, and to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-16).
I think that if you read all of my replies to similar objections, you will find my belief to be grounded in the stone of simplicity, and therefore, unmovable by the winds of complexity.
Please reconsider your position, or at the very least, fear God enough not to continue to try to convince others against the necessity of obedience to Christ (John 3:36; Mark 16:16).
Further, I personally don't know of anyone who interprets those scriptures like you have wrongly said that I do...
1 Peter 3:20-21, says plainly that baptism is a like figure of the flood of Noah, and that it is not the putting away of the dirt on our skin, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.
With all respect, I think it's plain to most bible readers that this passage uses the flood of Noah as an allegory to baptism...
However, I'm more concerned with your contracted citation of Paul--only partly quoting him to make your point--when you ought to have quoted him more fully:
Ephesians 2:8-10:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Paul teaches that there's is nothing anyone can do to earn salvation, and that is because it is a gift, which brings about true holiness in those who truly love God, thus Christian works are not to merit salvation, but are simply in obedience to our new Lord, out of a desire to please Him, because we love Him.
Concerning 1Corinthians, the logic is the same, it is simply an allegory to baptism...
I must warn you, concerning the way you handle the scriptures: partial scripture quotations that obscure meaning and contradict complete quotations are a tool Satan tried with the Lord at the end of His forty day fast, when he quoted Psalm 91:11-12, he left out the middle, which says "...to keep thee in all thy ways." The way he quoted it, changed it's meaning, for the original passage is referring to the ways of the righteous, and how the angels prevent the harm of stumbling on a stone, yet Satan used it to mean jumping off of a cliff! The Lord simply responded by quoting another scripture that demonstrated the contradiction inherent in Satan's contracted quotation.
Be warned further, that the writings of Paul are the only writings foretold to be twisted by the unlearned, and to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-16).
I think that if you read all of my replies to similar objections, you will find my belief to be grounded in the stone of simplicity, and therefore, unmovable by the winds of complexity.
Please reconsider your position, or at the very least, fear God enough not to continue to try to convince others against the necessity of obedience to Christ (John 3:36; Mark 16:16).
Your post #3 you are only making an assumption that the thief was water baptized as the ministry of John the Baptist covered all the Jewish region, but nowhere in scripture does it state that he was water baptized. In Luke 23:39-43 this thief rebuked the other thief and knew this condemnation against them was justly. He turned to Jesus knowing He was the Lord and asked that he would be remembered when Jesus came into His kingdom. This was an admission of a guilty conscience repenting of his sins as it was only while hanging on the cross seeing what Jesus went through that the theif then believed.
Concerning Mark 16:14-16 the disciples were water baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan River before Jesus called them to be His disciples. But, yet their unblief in the risen Christ and the hardness of their heart caused them to not believe the report of others who had seen the risen Christ. It would not be until in the upper room on the day of pentecost that Jesus appeared to them and then they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit (two different baptisms) and sent out to preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.
Ephesians 2:8-10 It's not water that saves us or trying to work towards God's salvation by doing good things as it's by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. It's faith that is Christ Jesus that we first believe in that is God's free gift to us. Faith comes by hearing the word preached to us, Romans 10:17, and our obedience comes by being Spiritually born again, John 3:5-7 as we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we are ordained to walk in them.
God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved or lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
I stand by what I said in post #18 as we can not add words to scripture to make it say what we want it to. God causing the flood only saved Noah and his family from being destroyed like all the others as he was the only one who already had great faith and believed in God just as the same with Noah and the Israelites when God parted the Red Sea and then once they safely reached Canaan God closed up the waters and those who had no faith or belief in God drowned in the river. 1 Peter 3:21 can be compared to the thief on the cross as a guilty conscience leads one to repentance as it is by the resurrection of Jesus Christ that we believe, just as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost and were baptized in the Holy Spirit, not water and were saved.