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"BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM" - John 8:58

SolaScriptura

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What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

It is quite wrong to conclude, as some do, that this verb is always used in the “future tense”. We have examples like Jeremiah 31:9, “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am (ehyeh) a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”, and Micah 7:1, “Woe is me! for I am (ehyeh) as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grape gleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the first ripe fruit.”, and, Job 11:4, “For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am (ehyeh) clean in thine eyes.”. In each case the verb “’ehyeh” is in the “present tense”.

In John's vision of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 1, we read Jesus' words to John, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: and He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." (17-18). "ὁ ζῶν" (He that Lives), or literally, "The Living One", as in Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint. On the words, "ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος" (The First and The Last), Dr J H Thayer, a Unitarian, says in his famous Greek lexicon, "the eternal one" (page 554), something that his own "theology" would never allow, as only Almighty God could ever be described as "Eternal", which he denied! In John's Gospel we have an interesting account of Jesus' arrest. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, who betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (18:4-6). Note, Jesus tells them in verse 5, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and when they heard this, they fell backwards. In the Gospels we read the account of the boat that the Disciples were on, was being tossed on the sea, and Jesus comes to them walking on the sea. " And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" (Matthew 14:25-27; Mark 6:48-50; John 6:17-20). When Jesus says "it is I", the Greek is actually, " Ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM), and this was enough assurance for the Disciples!

In Exodus chapter 3, we read in verse 2, " And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush". Then, in verse 4 we read, " So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”". And further, " Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God." (verse 6). Here we read that it was "The Angel (or "One sent", "Messenger"), Who appeared to Moses "in the bush". Then "Yahweh" saw that Moses turned to take a closer look, and "Elohim" called to Moses "from the middle of the bush", and identifies Himself as, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”. The Eternal God. It should be noted, that since this Person, "The Angel" is said to be "of the Lord", He must be "distinct" from "the Lord", Who would have "sent" Him on this mission. In Isaiah chapter 48, we have Yahweh speaking (read in context) in verse 16, where He says, "Approach Me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there.” And now the Lord God has sent me and His Spirit". Here we have "Yahweh" Who is said to have been "sent" by "Yahweh Elohim", Who also sends the Holy Spirit. The "Angel (Messenger) of the Lord" is also Someone Who is "sent", as the Hebrew term says. It was The Angel of the Lord who responded to Moses when he asked, "what is His Name, what shall I say to them?" (3:14). To which The Angel of the Lord replied, "I AM WHO I AM". Who is The Lord Jesus Christ!
 

tigger 2

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John 8:58


SS:
What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death, which would have been because they considered His words, blasphemy? It would be the same reason why they wanted to stone Him later, in John chapter 10, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God” (verse 33). As they did in 5:18, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. What the Jews meant here by “ισον”, was that Jesus was here saying that there is no “essential difference” between Himself and His Father, as in 10:33. Though functionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus during His Incarnation. (Luke 24:26; John 14:28; 17:5; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:7-9)

To get an understanding of what Jesus says in John 8:58, that got the Jews so enraged, we have to go to what was said in the Greek. "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important. The Jews in had accused Jesus of making Himself to be "greater" than Abraham, and that Abraham actually rejoiced to "see" Jesus, which the Jews could not fathom. Abraham, says Jesus, had a "beginning" as he was born in time; whereas He did not have any "beginning", as He has always existed, which is seen in the force of the words ἐγὼ εἰμί", which is in the present, continuance. But, Jesus' words are far more important as to what they meant to the Jews, than caused them to want to stone Him. They very clearly understood Jesus here to claim the Divine Name, "I AM" for Himself. The Jews understood Jesus to refer to the Book of Exodus, where Moses asks God for His Name, so that he could tell the children of Israel Who had sent him to them. To which God replied, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh" (Exodus 3:14), which is best rendered into English as "I am who I am". Attempts to weaken these words to, "I will be who I will be", etc, are quite wrong.

[[But in all the other places Moses has written ehyeh, Bible translators have rendered it as “I will be.” And in the very next verse (3:15), God tells Moses to tell the Israelites that his NAME forever is YHWH (“Yahweh” or “Jehovah” in the ASV) not ehyeh. Ehyeh is not the “Divine Name,” but is an explanation of the Divine Name (YHWH), and is used for God only in this one instance in the entire Bible, whereas YHWH is used as His name thousands of times throughout the OT.]]

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, and carried out by the best Jewish scholars, who would have been experts in both Hebrew and Greek, render the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14, by "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". The LXX was the main Old Testament version that was used by the early Christians, though so who were more learned, used the Hebrew, like the scholar Jerome. Because the Christians made use of the LXX, the Jews in the 2nd century made their own Greek versions of the Old Testament. The first was done by Aquila in the first half of this century. And then towards the end of this century, another was made by Theodotion. Both these versions have rendered the Hebrew, "Eheyeh asher Eheyeh", in Greek “εσομαι (ὃς) εσομαι”, which is the future of “εἰμι”, “I will be Who I will be”. This was done not because they were being more faithful to the Hebrew, but, because it was to counter the Christian use of this verse for the Deity of Jesus Christ, when used with John 8:58.

[[ The translation of the LXX at Ex. 3:14 is actually closer to “I am the Being” (Bagster translation). “Eternal” is not a part of ὁ ὤν. “Ego eimi is not part of the name in the LXX just as “I am” is not part of my name when I say “I am Tigger 2.”

As for the translations of Aquila and Theodotion, what is your evidence that their rendering of Ehyeh to esomai (“I will be”) is incorrect? I believe they have correctly translated the Hebrew as the further uses by Moses indicate. I don’t think the made-up connection between John 8:58 and Ex. 3:14 even existed at this very early time. The Ante-Nicene Fathers when quoting Ex. 3:14 never used ego eimi (‘I am’) as the translation of ehyeh (or the LXX) as the name later trinitarians wanted.

I’m not even sure that the connection was used in the Nicene Council of 325 A.D.]]
 

tigger 2

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I Am (continued)

The Jews also recognise this to be the best rendering of the Hebrew text, "Te true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced “Yahweh.” This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry (e.g., Ex. 15:2) and the -yahu or -yah that serves as the final syllable in very many Hebrew names. In the opinion of many scholars, YHWH is a verbal form of the root hwh, which is an older variant of the root hyh “to be.” Te vowel of the first syllable shows that the verb is used in the form of a future-present causative hiphʿil, and must therefore mean “He causes to be, He brings into existence.” The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica). And, " And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

The Hebrew verb here is, “hâyâh (’ehyeh)” which is the imperfect, “to exist, to be”. The imperfect also denotes habitual or customary action –past, present, or future tense. It also denotes incomplete action, whether in the past, present, or future. In John 1:1 we read, “was the Word...was with God...was God”. This does not mean as in our English, that refers only to the past. Here the Greek for “was”, is “ἦν”, which is the imperfect of “εἰμι”, and like the Hebrew “hâyâh”, denotes incomplete action.

It is the same Hebrew imperfect verb “hâyâh”, used in verse 12, where most English translations read, “I will be with you”. Youngs Literal Translation reads, “I am with thee”, which is right. Alost all these English Versions that read, “I will be with you”, translate the same Hebrew in verse 14, “I am Who I am”, or, “I am that I am”. As we have seen, the LXX translates the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, with “ εἰμι”, which is the present tense, literally, “to be, to exist”. And therefore "Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence.

[[2 Samuel 7:14 quoted in the New Testament scriptures at Hebrews 1:5. Notice that when ehyeh (2 Sam. 7:14) was translated into the NT Greek by the inspired Bible writer at Heb. 1:5, he didn’t write ego eimi (“I am”) but ego esomai (“I will be”)! (Esomai is also used at 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek OT,)

Ezekiel 11:20 is also quoted in the NT at Heb. 8:10. Ehyeh in Ezekiel 11:20 is translated as "I will be," of course, and the quoting of this word by the NT writer in Heb. 8:10 is esomai ("I will be") not ego eimi (“I am”). (Ego esomai is used at Ezek. 11:20 in the Septuagint also.)

Conversely, the trinitarian United Bible Societies and the trinitarian scholar Delitzsch both translated the Greek “I will be” of Rev. 21:7 into the Hebrew ehyeh. - See their Hebrew New Testaments.

The trinitarian Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House, pp. 330-331, says of Ex. 3:14:

“It has been rendered, ‘I WILL BE that I WILL BE’ as an indication of God’s sovereignty and immutability” and “the translation ... that probably comes closest to the intention of God at this point is,I will be there’.”

Also see the trinitarian standard reference The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Eerdmans, 1984 printing, Vol. 2, p. 1254 (#3), p. 1266 (#5), and p. 1267 (#9), and the trinitarian A Dictionary of the Bible, Hastings, Vol. 2, pp. 199, 200, Hendrickson Publ., 1988 printing.

The clear testimony of the evidence shows that Ex. 3:14 incorrectly translates ehyeh as “I am” in many trinitarian Bible translations, and that it should be rendered as something closer to “I WILL BE.”

Both the Hebrew New Testament by Franz Delitzsch, the famous Lutheran Bible scholar, published by the trinitarian Bible Society, 1977 ed., and the Hebrew New Testament by the equally trinitarian United Bible Societies, 1983, use two Hebrew pronouns instead of the word ehyeh in translating John 8:58.

So, instead of “Before Abraham was, ehyeh,” they both have “Before Abraham was, ani hu.” Ani means “I,” and hu means “he.” (Just as hu can sometimes include an implied “be” verb such as “is” or “was” - see Gesenius, p. 218 - so ani can also include an implied verb such as “am” or “was” or “have been.”)

John 8:58 in these two trinitarian translations, then, may be interpreted “I [am] he” or “I [was] he,” etc.

Therefore, these two trinitarian translations, written by scholars who are truly experts in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew (like the Hebrew scholars who wrote the ancient Septuagint), make no attempt to correlate John 8:58 (ani hu) with Exodus 3:14 (ehyeh). This shows they recognize the impossibility of the ehyeh/ego eimi argument used by some trinitarians.

Furthermore they have both translated the NT “I will be” (esomai) as ehyeh:

John 8:55 (esomai/ehyeh); 1 Cor. 14:11 (esomai/ehyeh); Heb. 1:5 (esomai/ehyeh); Rev. 21:7(esomai/ehyeh).

As for “"Ἐγώ εἰμι” denotes, absolute existence,” this is just wishful thinking for trinitarians.

There are hundreds (if not thousands of uses of “I am” - ego eimi) in the Septuagint OT which do not mean “absolute existence” or refer to a term for God. This Greek translation of the Hebrew was made around 200 B.C. by Jewish scholars.

Here are a very few of them - notice who it is that speaks those words.

Genesis (From The Septuagint, Zondervan, 1980 printing):
4:9; 23:4; 24:24,34; 27:32; 30:2; 31:38 (rendered "I have been"); 31:41 ("I have been"); 45:3, 4; 50:19.

Judges
5:3 (twice); 6:15, 18; 8:5; 11:27, 35, 37; 16:17 ("I have been"); 19:18

The disciple whom Jesus had healed of blindness obviously had no knowledge of such a meaning (“He said, ‘I AM [ego eimi]’.”) - John 9:9, see interlinears. And even if he had made such a “terrible”, “blasphemous” slip of the tongue, the Jews who had come to question him would certainly not have ignored it as they did! And the Bible writer himself (the Apostle John) would not have written such an account without making it perfectly clear that this terrible “blasphemer” had paid dearly for his “evil” deed! And, again, the Apostle Paul would never make such a statement (Acts 26:29; 1 Cor. 15:10) if it could possibly be understood in such a blasphemous way! “I AM” simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!
]]
 

tigger 2

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What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death



That He is YHWH, the Lord God of the Old Testament.


….…………………………………………………….

But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!
 

SolaScriptura

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What did Jesus mean by these words, that caused the Jews to want to stone Him to death



That He is YHWH, the Lord God of the Old Testament.


….…………………………………………………….

But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!

WHO is Jesus Christ to you?
 

JLB

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The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.


Jesus is indeed the Christ; The Messiah


Are you trying to say, Jesus isn’t the Lord God; YHWH ?







JLB
 

tigger 2

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Jesus is indeed the Christ; The Messiah


Are you trying to say, Jesus isn’t the Lord God; YHWH ?


JLB

Only the Father is known as YHWH (Yahweh; Jehovah; Yehowah).

"But now, O Jehovah [YHWH], thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." - Is. 64:8, ASV.

The Messiah was never understood to be God in the OT.

Ps. 110:1, ASV: "Jehovah [YHWH] saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." YHWH is speaking to the Messiah ("my Lord") here.

Is. 53 is, according to most Christians, describing the Messiah. Notice verse 10:

"10 Yet it pleased Jehovah [YHWH] to bruise him [Messiah]; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand." - Is. 53:10, ASV.
 

SolaScriptura

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Only the Father is known as YHWH (Yahweh; Jehovah; Yehowah).

"But now, O Jehovah [YHWH], thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." - Is. 64:8, ASV.

The Messiah was never understood to be God in the OT.

Ps. 110:1, ASV: "Jehovah [YHWH] saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." YHWH is speaking to the Messiah ("my Lord") here.

Is. 53 is, according to most Christians, describing the Messiah. Notice verse 10:

"10 Yet it pleased Jehovah [YHWH] to bruise him [Messiah]; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand." - Is. 53:10, ASV.

 

JLB

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Only the Father is known as YHWH (Yahweh; Jehovah; Yehowah).

"But now, O Jehovah [YHWH], thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." - Is. 64:8, ASV.

The Messiah was never understood to be God in the OT.

Ps. 110:1, ASV: "Jehovah [YHWH] saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." YHWH is speaking to the Messiah ("my Lord") here.

Is. 53 is, according to most Christians, describing the Messiah. Notice verse 10:

"10 Yet it pleased Jehovah [YHWH] to bruise him [Messiah]; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand." - Is. 53:10, ASV.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;…
Isaiah 43:3


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 2:1


Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

Isaiah 45:22-23

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11



Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


In the Old Testament where the prophet would say, “thus says the Lord”, it was the Spirit of Christ speaking through them.



Example:


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. In that day,” says the LORD, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.’ In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.
“The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:1-10


  • The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:


  • And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son,


Was the Father or the Son pierced at the cross?






JLB
 

tigger 2

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JLB wrote: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13 [JLB quotes also in blue below]
..................
We can find numerous translations of Titus 2:13 (probably the most-used scripture for this “proof”) which render it as referring to two persons.

Titus 2:13
Bible translations old and new:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

JLB: For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;…
Isaiah 43:3

....................
Is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew [Strong‘s # 3467], soter in NT Greek [Strong‘s # 4990]) really an exclusive title for God, or can it properly be applied to other individuals?

If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title.

So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV - compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a newtrinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

“Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei - Matt. 1:21 and soso - John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei - James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso - 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God!

We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others.

However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them.

Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument.
 

tigger 2

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JLB: “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:1-10

........................
Unfortunately for this trinitarian interpretation even many trinitarian translations disagree:

“...when they look upon him whom they have pierced” - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; CEV; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for “me” in Zech. 12:10: “According to some MSS. [manuscripts], ‘him’.” Also see Rotherham footnote.)

Even the context tells us that the latter rendering is the correct one. Notice that after saying that they will look upon me (or him) God continues with “they shall mourn for HIM”! Notice how the KJV (and those following its tradition) contradicts itself here. The “me” in the first half simply does not agree with the “him” of the second half. Since there has never been any question about the accuracy of the word “him” in the second half, the disputed word of the first half (which has manuscript evidence for both renderings) must also properly be rendered as “him” (or “the one”).

The testimony of the first Christian writers to come after the NT writers (the ‘Ante-Nicene Fathers') confirms the non-trinitarian translation of Zechariah 12:10 ("him"). Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (repeatedly) rendered Zech. 12:10 as "him whom they pierced"! This is especially significant because trinitarian scholars and historians claim these particular early Christians (including Origen who doesn't quote Zech. 12:10 at all in his existing writings) are the very ones who actually began the development of the trinity doctrine for Christendom! If any of the earliest Christian writers, then, would use a trinitarian interpretation here, it would certainly be these three. Since they do not do so, it must mean that the source for the `look upon me' translation originated even later than the time of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (early 3rd century A.D.)!

Included in those very early Christian writers' quotes of Zech. 12:10 is Justin Martyr I. Apol., i. 77, who also quotes it as it is found in John.

The OT Greek Septuagint uses "me" (in existing copies, at least - 4th century A.D. and later), but it is significantly different from the Hebrew text: "They shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son]." - Zech. 12:10, Septuagint, Zondervan, 1976 printing. In other words: (1) they will look upon God whom they have mocked [not "pierced"] as their judgment arrives and (2) they will mourn Christ. The two are not the same person here, nor the same God!

According to The Expositor's Greek Testament, : John's translation of Zech. 12:10 is the correct one. "The same rendering is adopted in the Greek [OT] versions of Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus" - vol. 1, p. 860.

“The [Hebrew] text of Zech. 12:10 is corrupt. The [Greek] LXX text reads: ... (‘they shall look upon me whom they have treated spitefully’) .... The text in [Jn 19:37] does not follow the LXX; but it has also avoided the impossible [‘me’] of the Hebrew text.” - p. 195, John 2, Ernst Haenchen, Fortress Press, 1984.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar says:

“138. The relative Pronoun.... (2) Not depending on a governing substantive, but itself expressing a substantial idea. Clauses introduced in this way may be called independent relative clauses. This use of [asher] is generally rendered in English by ‘he who,’ ‘he whom,’ &c.... In Z[echariah] 12:10 also, instead of the unintelligible [‘elai eth asher,’ ‘to me whom’], we should probably read [‘el asher,’ ‘to him whom’], and refer this passage to this class [of 'independent relative clauses'].” - pp. 444, 445, 446.

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as “They shall look upon him [or ‘the one’] whom they pierced.” So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: “They shall look upon him (not ‘me’).” Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!
 

SolaScriptura

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JLB wrote: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13 [JLB quotes also in blue below]
..................
We can find numerous translations of Titus 2:13 (probably the most-used scripture for this “proof”) which render it as referring to two persons.

Titus 2:13
Bible translations old and new:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

JLB: For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;…
Isaiah 43:3

....................
Is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew [Strong‘s # 3467], soter in NT Greek [Strong‘s # 4990]) really an exclusive title for God, or can it properly be applied to other individuals?

If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title.

So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV - compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a newtrinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

“Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei - Matt. 1:21 and soso - John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei - James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso - 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God!

We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others.

However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them.

Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument.

 

JLB

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JLB wrote: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13 [JLB quotes also in blue below]
..................
We can find numerous translations of Titus 2:13 (probably the most-used scripture for this “proof”) which render it as referring to two persons.

Titus 2:13
Bible translations old and new:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

JLB: For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;…
Isaiah 43:3

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Is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew [Strong‘s # 3467], soter in NT Greek [Strong‘s # 4990]) really an exclusive title for God, or can it properly be applied to other individuals?

If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title.

So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV - compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a newtrinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

“Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei - Matt. 1:21 and soso - John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei - James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso - 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God!

We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others.

However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them.

Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument.


It’s obvious to me from the scriptures that the Apostles and writers of the New Testament, understood that Jesus Christ is the Lord God; YHWH



Who do you believe is coming on the Day of the Lord, to bring the saints from heaven and to destroy the wicked?



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4



The Father or the Son?






JLB
 
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