Bible Contradictions and Questions

[Ellusion]

So where do I start... Well how about a little history: I myself would consider myself agnostic. I find that evidence of God is lacking, as is evidence of the Big Bang. Therefore, I remain in the middle. I think Thomas Aquinas's First Mover argument is valid (unless someone will disprove that for me), so I believe in the possibility of a Creator. However, I do not believe in the Christian God (omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, etc etc).

I was raised a Catholic, yet, turned away around age 14 and I am 17 now. I used to go to Church every week and spend my time reading the Bible because of its vivid adventures, so I know the bible somewhat.

Here are my questions:

-If Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. The tree that would tell them from right and wrong), how were they to know not to eat from the fruit if they could not differentiate between right and wrong?

-What race were Adam and Eve? How is it we have come to be with asians, hispanics, whites, blacks, and all the other races/hair colors/ cultures?

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

-Is it not contradictory for God to smite an entire city because of their homosexuality? (Sodom and Gamorrah [sp?])

-Why is there suffering? In Job, it is suggested it is to test our faith and to reward those who remain faithful even in the harshest of times. Yet then why does God supposedly lead Moses into Egypt to deliver the Jews through a series of Miracles? And then why, later, does God leave the Jews to burn during the Holocaust?

-If we regard the entire OId Testament as metaphorical and to be taken symbolically, why did Jesus sacrifice himself for us? Was it not to wipe away Original Sin? Which came from Adam and Eve eating from the tree?

-How are we to know when the Second Coming of Christ is? I mean, if people believe that Jesus was honestly the first coming, how do we know history will not repeat itself? Jesus came, called himself the Son of God, and he was brutally nailed to 2x4's by his own people because of blasphemy. I think the only thing that will convince people of the Second Coming of Christ would have to be a display of power, which, would render the idea of faith useless.

I hope I don't insult anyone... These are just questions that I've had for a while and people have been unable to answer for me. I was hoping to find some answers here...

 

[stovebolts]

-If Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. The tree that would tell them from right and wrong), how were they to know not to eat from the fruit if they could not differentiate between right and wrong?

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

I believe it's a matter of faith. It always has been. Whether we understand God's will or not, we have to have faith that how he tells us to live our lives is the best possible way to live.

-What race were Adam and Eve? How is it we have come to be with asians, hispanics, whites, blacks, and all the other races/hair colors/ cultures?

We have a good idea where the original garden was located, but as far as race,that's a man made distinction. We see this division shortly after the fall when the conversation turns.., Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you that you should not eat?
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Notice, this is the first time Adam made a distinction. Previously Adam stated, Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Move up the tale, and we get to the tower of Babel... Enough for now.

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

Sure, why not?

-Is it not contradictory for God to smite an entire city because of their homosexuality? (Sodom and Gamorrah [sp?])

The city wasn't smitten simply because of their homosexualit, it ran much deeper than that. Read Ezekiel 16 in full keeping in mind that the kingdom was divided. (Judah / Israel)
Ezekiel 16:48-50 As I live, says the Lord GOD, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as you have done, you and your daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom, pride, fulness of food, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

-Why is there suffering? In Job, it is suggested it is to test our faith and to reward those who remain faithful even in the harshest of times. Yet then why does God supposedly lead Moses into Egypt to deliver the Jews through a series of Miracles? And then why, later, does God leave the Jews to burn during the Holocaust?

Good questions, but I don't have the time or space to respond. If your truly interested, check out a book called Old Testament Theology by Paul House.

-If we regard the entire OId Testament as metaphorical and to be taken symbolically, why did Jesus sacrifice himself for us? Was it not to wipe away Original Sin? Which came from Adam and Eve eating from the tree?

Though there is metaphor and symbol meaning within the OT, it is also an historical account. I believe that covenant theology would do well to explain your questions as well. Start with the promise given in Genesis 3:15 and watch it move. Here are the highlights.
Genesis 3:15
Genesis 9:11-13
Genesis 17:2-5 [Genesis 17:11 and 17: 14] [Genesis 18:17-24 / Ezekiel 16:49-50]
Genesis 22:1-2
Genesis 22:13
Exodus 19:5-6
2 Samuel 7:12-14
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Luke 1:30-32
Luke 22:20
Luke 23:44-46
Luke 24:1-8

-How are we to know when the Second Coming of Christ is? I mean, if people believe that Jesus was honestly the first coming, how do we know history will not repeat itself? Jesus came, called himself the Son of God, and he was brutally nailed to 2x4's by his own people because of blasphemy. I think the only thing that will convince people of the Second Coming of Christ would have to be a display of power, which, would render the idea of faith useless.

The view your taking is the same view that many of the Jews took. This is why Jesus was rejected by many of his own people.

Jesus was called the "Son of David". So was Solomon... Solomon set up a worldly kingdom and disobeyed God's will, but because there was world peace and silver / material wealth was abundant, the people were led astray from God's original plan.

So, what kind of "Son of David" would Jesus be? One of mercy, or one of power and authority? Jesus said,
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

 

[Ellusion]

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

I believe it's a matter of faith. It always has been. Whether we understand God's will or not, we have to have faith that how he tells us to live our lives is the best possible way to live.

I take it then, that you take the Bible literally. I won't delve into the scientific part of this because for one, I myself don't know too much about it. And this isn't the place for it.
So prior to eating the fruit of the tree, wouldn't it imply that they could not differentiate between good and evil? Meaning that it wasn't really their fault for eating from the tree because they didn't know any better?

We have a good idea where the original garden was located, but as far as race,that's a man made distinction. We see this division shortly after the fall when the conversation turns.., Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you that you should not eat?
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Notice, this is the first time Adam made a distinction. Previously Adam stated, Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Move up the tale, and we get to the tower of Babel... Enough for now.

Although it is a man-made distinction, can you agree that there are clear differences between races? And can you agree that genetics plays a large role in childbirth? (i.e. A white couple will not spontaneously give birth to an asian child, etc.)
I think your post only really explains man vs women and the origin of language... Not necessarily race.

Sure, why not?

Because we don't live that long today... I mean considering the information we have, our life expectancies have only gone up. Why do we not live to this age today?

The city wasn't smitten simply because of their homosexualit, it ran much deeper than that. Read Ezekiel 16 in full keeping in mind that the kingdom was divided. (Judah / Israel)
Ezekiel 16:48-50 As I live, says the Lord GOD, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as you have done, you and your daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom, pride, fulness of food, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

Regardless, God still destroyed an entire city because of their sins. I am sure there are cities that are more sinful than those. My point was to emphasize God's ruthlessness; does he not also turn Lot's wife into a pillar of salt simply because she turned and looked at the city? Another example is when someone was gathering wood on the Sabbath and Moses sought God's advice; God advised Moses to gather the community and stone this individual to death. Is this really necessary?

Good questions, but I don't have the time or space to respond. If your truly interested, check out a book called Old Testament Theology by Paul House.

I am truly interested, but I don't have the time or money to find that book.

 

[Oracle]

-If Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. The tree that would tell them from right and wrong), how were they to know not to eat from the fruit if they could not differentiate between right and wrong?

-What race were Adam and Eve? How is it we have come to be with asians, hispanics, whites, blacks, and all the other races/hair colors/ cultures?

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

One thig God gave man, which set him apart from the rest of creation is a free will. God gave man a simple comman, and what the concequences of disobeying it would be. The Serpent however claimed that things weren't quite as God said they would be, and man was then faced with a choice to exercise his free will on. He made the wrong choice. They knew not to eat of the fruit of that tree, because God told them not to.

One of the misconceptions people have with the creation is that Adam was the first man God created, but looking deeper into the scriptures, the Bible does not support this. God created (spoke into existance) man on the sixth day of creation, but after he rested on the seventh day, he formed Adam from the dust of the ground. Adam means ruddy, which suggests he was white, or corcasian in appearance. The other races came from interbreeding with the sixth day creation. We see this in Genesis 6:2 'That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose', where the sons of God are the descendants of Adam, while the daugthers of man are from the sixth day creation.

-Is it not contradictory for God to smite an entire city because of their homosexuality? (Sodom and Gamorrah [sp?])

Romans 1:18-32; 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them'.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God'.

God has plenty to say about homosexuality, none of it good. People get involved with such a life style, because their heart is totally against God and his precepts. As StoveBolts said though, Sodom and Gomorah's problems went far deeper that homosexuality. It was far deeper issues which led tham down that path.

Luke 17:28-30; 'Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed'.

The above words, Jesus spoke concerning the state the world would be in at the time of his return. We see the world we are living in now has given over to homosexuality, to the point where in some countries, for example Canada, I could be jailed for writing such a post.

Malachai 4:1; 'For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts'.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; 'And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day'.

These scriptures answer your last point also. When Jesus Christ returns, it will not be as with his first coming. This world will suffer the same fate as Sodom and Gommorah. It will be toast.

-Why is there suffering? In Job, it is suggested it is to test our faith and to reward those who remain faithful even in the harshest of times. Yet then why does God supposedly lead Moses into Egypt to deliver the Jews through a series of Miracles? And then why, later, does God leave the Jews to burn during the Holocaust?

Deuteronomy 18:17-19; 'And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him'.

When the Lord led the children of Israel out of Egypt through Moses, he spoke of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Matthew 27:22-25; 'Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children'.

The Jews rejected the Messiah, and brought the curse of his blood, not only upon themselves, but on the generations to come. God didn't leave the Jews. They left him.

 

[Ellusion]

My question about the age thing remains unswered...

One thig God gave man, which set him apart from the rest of creation is a free will. God gave man a simple comman, and what the concequences of disobeying it would be. The Serpent however claimed that things weren't quite as God said they would be, and man was then faced with a choice to exercise his free will on. He made the wrong choice. They knew not to eat of the fruit of that tree, because God told them not to.

Ok, let me reiterate one more time. PRIOR to eating from the tree, the tree of knowledge, the tree of good and evil, Adam and Eve have no concept of good or evil or knowledge, similar to a newborn baby.

God tell them, Do not eat from this tree. It's implied that disobeying God is evil, correct?
and since they do not know what evil is or what good is, they don't understand that disobeying God is wrong.

This is much like telling a newborn baby to not cry or not crawl around. If they don't understand that what they're doing is wrong, then you shouldn't punish them eternally... you teach. A truly loving person/being would try and teach.

One of the misconceptions people have with the creation is that Adam was the first man God created, but looking deeper into the scriptures, the Bible does not support this. God created (spoke into existance) man on the sixth day of creation, but after he rested on the seventh day, he formed Adam from the dust of the ground. Adam means ruddy, which suggests he was white, or corcasian in appearance. The other races came from interbreeding with the sixth day creation. We see this in Genesis 6:2 'That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose', where the sons of God are the descendants of Adam, while the daugthers of man are from the sixth day creation

Yes... I suppose that is a misconception? Because I for one would think that Adam was the first human created. As would countless other sources.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

...

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Semantically, this Bible passage states that Adam was in fact the first person made.

The other races came from interbreeding with the sixth day creation.

Aren't there a multitude of problems with that? Such as genetic problems, etc.?

The Jews rejected the Messiah, and brought the curse of his blood, not only upon themselves, but on the generations to come. God didn't leave the Jews. They left him.

So essentially, God does not judge us individually, but rather by the actions of our ancestors? And God does not forgive? Because the Jews put Jesus to death (which, in fact, was his plan? to be the sacrificial lamb? To eliminate original sin?), the Jews are no longer protected by God's love?

Oh and new question. Do you really think Noah could fit 7 of every bird, 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal on an ark? Not to mention food for them for 7 days?

 

[Oracle]

Ok, let me reiterate one more time. PRIOR to eating from the tree, the tree of knowledge, the tree of good and evil, Adam and Eve have no concept of good or evil or knowledge, similar to a newborn baby.

God tell them, Do not eat from this tree. It's implied that disobeying God is evil, correct?
and since they do not know what evil is or what good is, they don't understand that disobeying God is wrong.

This is much like telling a newborn baby to not cry or not crawl around. If they don't understand that what they're doing is wrong, then you shouldn't punish them eternally... you teach. A truly loving person/being would try and teach

I understand where you are coming from, but what you fail to realize is that, even with your analogy of a new born baby, a lack of understanding will not stop a baby being electicuted if they ingore their parent's warning not to play with an electrical outlet.

In the case of Adam and Eve, they were warned of God about the deadly consequences of eating from that tree. The Serpent, through a subtle twist of God's command beguiles Eve, the weaker of the two into eating. What he did was sow doubt in her mind.

Getting back to a new born baby, rebellion is inbread. One of the first word they learn is "NO", and from the cradle, they try to push the boundries. You tell them not to do something, you can almost guarantee they will try to find a way to do it, and get away with it.

Yes... I suppose that is a misconception? Because I for one would think that Adam was the first human created. As would countless other sources.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

...

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Semantically, this Bible passage states that Adam was in fact the first person made

I am not sure what translation (or more accurately, interpretation) you quoted, but it is full of flaws. It has man being created before the plants, which is not the real Bible says.

Scripture needs to be read in context with scripture, in oder to correctly interpret it.

Genesis 4:13-17; 'And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch: and he built a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch'.

If Adam was the first man to have ever lived, please answer these questions:

1/ who was Cain, Adam's only living offspring at the time afraid of?

2/ who did he marry, seeing Adam and Eve did not have any daughters at that point in time?

3/ why would he build a city for just himself, his wife, and his son? Why not just build a house?

Aren't there a multitude of problems with that? Such as genetic problems, etc.?

No more that if a Zulu man marries Chinese woman today.

Genesis 6:1-5; 'And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually'.

But the answer to your question is yes, there were a multitude of problems arising from the interbreeding.

So essentially, God does not judge us individually, but rather by the actions of our ancestors? And God does not forgive? Because the Jews put Jesus to death (which, in fact, was his plan? to be the sacrificial lamb? To eliminate original sin?), the Jews are no longer protected by God's love?

Galatians 3:27-28; 'For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus'.

God does judge everyone individually. He also judges the nations. You forget that the first people God saved in the New Testament were Jews. They were the first Christians, and even today, God is still filling individual Jews with the Holy Ghost, if they turn to him in repentance, just as he does with any person, regardless of their race, or ethnic origins.

Oh and new question. Do you really think Noah could fit 7 of every bird, 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal on an ark? Not to mention food for them for 7 days?

I don't know where you get your info from, but is certainly not is the Bible. It rained for forty days and forty nights, and the earth was flooded for a hundred and fifty days, not seven.

The word translated as earth in the story of the flood, is trannslated from the Hebrew word 'erets', which means 'to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): - X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world'. The flood was not global, as many believe, but would have covered the then known world, or the seat of civilization at that time, which was in the Mesopotamian region, as the word 'earth' could just as correctly been translated as 'nation', or 'country'. Only the animals which would be affected by the flood, would need to be on board. With the dimentions of the Ark given in the Bible, all the creatures on board would have only taken up one of the ark's three levels, leaving the remaining two for food and provisions. There was more than enough room onboard.

 

[Ellusion]

Indeed, but when a baby is told not to draw on the walls, yet does so anyways, they are corrected and sent on their way. They are not banished from their house and forced to live elsewhere. It seems a bit of a harsh punishment. Your electrical outlet analogy isn't the same because it wasn't the Tree that punished Adam and Eve, but God.

Meh, I got it from biblegateway.com Genesis 2:4-7, 19-22

If Adam, was not the first man, then why in 1 Corinthians 15:47 ...

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

In Genesis 3:20,

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

It states that Eve was the mother of all living, meaning she was the first woman.

In Genesis 5:3,

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died

Seth was born when Adam was 130 years of age, giving plenty of time for Adam to give birth to daughters and have grandchildren etc before Cain's murder.

Only the animals which would be affected by the flood, would need to be on board. With the dimentions of the Ark given in the Bible, all the creatures on board would have only taken up one of the ark's three levels, leaving the remaining two for food and provisions. There was more than enough room onboard.

So essentially what you're saying when the Bible said 7 of every clean animal, 2 of every unclean animal and 7 of all the birds... you're saying that God didn't actually mean that. Do you have any idea how many different kinds of insect and mammal there are? Yes, I was wrong about 7 days... for some reason 40 slipped my mind. I mean it seems like God just made it so complicated. Why didn't he just snap his fingers and solve the problem?

God does judge everyone individually. He also judges the nations. You forget that the first people God saved in the New Testament were Jews. They were the first Christians, and even today, God is still filling individual Jews with the Holy Ghost, if they turn to him in repentance, just as he does with any person, regardless of their race, or ethnic origins.

Repentance for what? Are you saying that every single Jew who died during the Holocaust were not true believers of God? I just find it hard to believe that God is good if he can just watch his people suffer. Actually, why is there suffering? Why does God just let people be raped and murdered and tortured around the world? Why doesn't he just destroy the evil, like he did in the Flood or at Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[Ellusion]

I'm hoping to bump this thread so my questions are answered. Is there anyone who knows these answers?

 

[Pogo]

Ellusion -

First let me salute your concern in searching for the truth at such an early age!

Also, let me say that it has been my experience that no church is interested in helping anyone find the answers to questions such as yours. They can't/won't deal with a skeptic's concerns. They expect you to fall into line, their view of the line, btw, and let them coach/steer you regarding the proper manner in which to live out the rest of your life here on this earth.

If your experiences come close to mine, your are going to have to search outside of the church, and outside of the scriptures, to resolve these valid concerns of yours.

Rather than try and deal with your questions myself, I would rather let others here, more qualified than I, offer their opinions.

However, I would like to suggest a book for your consideration. It is entitled "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. The answers to your questions, and more, will be found there.

Is there a God? What is His name? Evolution? Etc. The research has already been done!

McDowell is a graduate of Wheaton College (Billy Graham's alma mater), and has worked with Campus Crusade for Christ, but as far as I can tell, thankfully, he doesn't push the Baptist, or any denomination's, agenda. I have attended two of his seminars/revivals, one at a Presbyterian church, and another at a Baptist church.

As far as I know he doesn't try to identify God's one true church on earth, this he leaves up to each individual. He has made himself available to any interested crowd of Bible students, without bias, though.

Additionally, as far as I have been able to determine, there is not one mainstream church in America that is teaching, and following, all of the commands, examples and truths found in the scriptures, all are flawed.

Even here in this forum, the truth can be found, but there is much error as well.

Good luck with your quest!

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[Vic C.]

... However, I would like to suggest a book for your consideration. It is entitled "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. The answers to your questions, and more, will be found there.

Is there a God? What is His name? Evolution? Etc. The research has already been done!

McDowell is a graduate of Wheaton College (Billy Graham's alma mater), and has worked with Campus Crusade for Christ, but as far as I can tell, thankfully, he doesn't push the Baptist, or any denomination's, agenda. I have attended two of his seminars/revivals, one at a Presbyterian church, and another at a Baptist church....

Good advice. Josh wrote it as an agnostic looking for disproof and came out on the right side of the Cross.

You should also check out some of Lee Strobel's books. He came into Christianity after being an atheist for many years. Here is his testimony:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2AT_bMuFBfs&hl=en

All I can add at this time is that my Faith is not based on whether or not Genesis is literal. I'm a Christian and my faith is centered on Jesus, who He was and most importantly, what He did. 8-)

 

[Ellusion]

Meh. I'm unimpressed by the video. All it is is a self-proclaimed atheist-turned-christian saying how a "torrent of evidence" convinced him without ever explicating. Would someone like to offer maybe one or two shreds of this evidence?

 

[Veritas]

Ellusion, I think vic brought up a very good point - everything in the Christian faith centers on Jesus Christ. From that point, we move out through the rest of the story revealed to us and address questions as we can. But there are core questions that are helpful to look at first. I hope you don't mind me asking them.

Lets focus on Jesus. What do you think about Him in particular? Do you know much about what the man said?

 

[Vic C.]

Meh. I'm unimpressed by the video. All it is is a self-proclaimed atheist-turned-christian saying how a "torrent of evidence" convinced him without ever explicating. Would someone like to offer maybe one or two shreds of this evidence?

I was just offering some pointers. If you are interested in Lee's PoV, I suggested reading his books.

 

[Ellusion]

Yeah. I think that there's a definite possibility of his existence. I think it's probable too. But I'm not sure about the miracles he was to have performed.

Isn't He more or less God made into flesh? Some semi-convoluted stuff about how he is the Word and the Word came to us and God was also the Word. I don't know, I remember reading John I think it was a little while ago. Like he came to erase sin or original sin...

I feel like you need to have the part without Jesus in it to fully understand the religion right? Because there are tons of laws and traditions Jesus had to respect because he was a Jew?

 

[Veritas]

Yeah. I think that there's a definite possibility of his existence. I think it's probable too. But I'm not sure about the miracles he was to have performed.

Ok. Lets focus on what Jesus was saying.

I feel like you need to have the part without Jesus in it to fully understand the religion right? Because there are tons of laws and traditions Jesus had to respect because he was a Jew?

In a way, yes. But it was actually all those laws and traditions the "religious" people were following that Jesus was trying to show was beside the point. Jesus was getting at the heart of people.... which actually God was doing all along for His people as recorded in Jewish history. It's just that its very easy for us to get hung up on "traditions" and "rules" and "laws"... do this, don't do that, etc. etc. It's much harder to act and live simply because we love God, to do because we want to and not because we have to. So, God has been romancing us.

You're right there are basic things to understand first to understand Jesus.... but alot of these things are apparent just by living. For example, I'm sure we can agree there is something wrong with the world... I mean, we are always complaining about something, and rightly so at times, or witnessing horrible things people do. Also, we know we die. And alot of us suspect there is a reason for all this around us. Now what was revealed very explicitly to the Hebrews was that there is one God - an ultimate creator/sustainer of all existance. It was revealed there is something wrong with the world because of something called "sin" (which is basically not living a life God designed for us). And as a result of sin, we seperate ourselves from God (who is the sustainer of life and really is life itself) so, we die.

Isn't He more or less God made into flesh? Some semi-convoluted stuff about how he is the Word and the Word came to us and God was also the Word. I don't know, I remember reading John I think it was a little while ago. Like he came to erase sin or original sin...

Yeah, Jesus claimed to be God in John. Jesus also claimed to be "the Truth", "the Way", and "the Life".... he wasn't just showing people truths... he claimed to be it. And yes, there was an interesting introduction in John using the word "Word". Before getting into what "the Word" meant in Greek we can just think about it. Think about how we make sense out of this world, even how we think, and how we communicate. We use words. We make a simple agreement and label something that and another thing this and then we can talk reasonalby about it. Now this is getting a bit heady but we have to assume that this "reason" we are using is larger than just what we decide "reason" to be, because if it wasn't I could just string together something crazy words or letters and deem that good and reasonable. That would get us nowhere. So, anyways, in Greek "the Word" is translated as "Logos", which means "rational principle", "reason", "the measure", etc. The Greeks had already thought about how important the concept of "Word" was.

But yes, John writes that God came down to us to seek us out and win our hearts. John wrote that Jesus died for our sake, and that if we believe Jesus, we share in His life and we will not perish, but live like Jesus lives today.

 

[OnFireForChrist]

-If Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. The tree that would tell them from right and wrong), how were they to know not to eat from the fruit if they could not differentiate between right and wrong?

God created the earth and called it good; God creates good things; God created man; therefore, before sin, Man has a natural disposition to goodness, because he has not fallen to sin yet.
Beyond that, God is quite explicit about the sin and the punishment of the sin in Genesis 2:16-17, "And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death." Adam and Eve do not know evil in the sense they have never experienced it, not that they were ignorant of what God asked them. They allowed themselves to be deceived and disobey God, rather than trusting in Him who created them and all good things He gave to them.

-What race were Adam and Eve? How is it we have come to be with asians, hispanics, whites, blacks, and all the other races/hair colors/ cultures?

I don't honestly know what race they were; all we know is that they were human. I think God created other people, for if they were the only two, how does Cain go off and find a wife that is not his mother? I think the reason why Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible is because it was they, and not any other, who brought sin into the world.

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

It is possible, though incredible it seems.

-Is it not contradictory for God to smite an entire city because of their homosexuality? (Sodom and Gamorrah [sp?])

No. God is not meant to be "the nice guy"--His is Truth and Justice, though His mercy is greater than His wrath. And it is true in all ages, not just that time, because Truth is timeless--when a nation becomes immoral, it tends to destroy itself in sin and immorality and the earth itself rises up against it, unless it turns to God for mercy.

-Why is there suffering? In Job, it is suggested it is to test our faith and to reward those who remain faithful even in the harshest of times. Yet then why does God supposedly lead Moses into Egypt to deliver the Jews through a series of Miracles? And then why, later, does God leave the Jews to burn during the Holocaust?

There is suffering because there is sin in the world; may I also recommend that suffering is a way to get us to rely in God before ourselves, for we cannot trust in our own selves. We are for one, limited, and two, corrupted by sin, and our sin causes us to see things blindly.
Suffering also brings us closer to Christ--we can try to emulate Him as He died on the cross, with perfect trust in our Father to provide--how else could He have had the strength to hold on to life until His work had been finished.

-If we regard the entire OId Testament as metaphorical and to be taken symbolically, why did Jesus sacrifice himself for us? Was it not to wipe away Original Sin? Which came from Adam and Eve eating from the tree?

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament; He was the lamb that was slain as a sacrifice, the scapegoat that bore the people's sins, and the priest that offered the sacrifice.
You've asked a good question here and I'll have to consider it and get back to you.

-How are we to know when the Second Coming of Christ is? I mean, if people believe that Jesus was honestly the first coming, how do we know history will not repeat itself? Jesus came, called himself the Son of God, and he was brutally nailed to 2x4's by his own people because of blasphemy. I think the only thing that will convince people of the Second Coming of Christ would have to be a display of power, which, would render the idea of faith useless.

We do not know when it will be. But John 13:8 says, "...Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice." If we are truly watchful and do good, we will recognize Him when He comes again. He isn't going to be coming like the first time as the Merciful Savior; this time He will come as the Just Judge. It will be hard to ignore.
I'm sorry that I didn't satisfactorily answer this question--I'll have to get back to you. ;)

I hope I don't insult anyone... These are just questions that I've had for a while and people have been unable to answer for me. I was hoping to find some answers here...

I am not insulted; seeking the Truth is a good thing. I hope I can help you.

 

[John]

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

There are many theories as to how.

Less disease.
Healthier environment.
Closer to the start of the fall = more perfect.
Hyperbolic conditions.
Etc etc.

Also long age would have effects of the size and shape of human bones and such (scientists like to pretend they are missing links)

 

[BobRyan]

So where do I start... Well how about a little history: I myself would consider myself agnostic. I find that evidence of God is lacking, as is evidence of the Big Bang. Therefore, I remain in the middle. I think Thomas Aquinas's First Mover argument is valid (unless someone will disprove that for me), so I believe in the possibility of a Creator. However, I do not believe in the Christian God (omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, etc etc).

I was raised a Catholic, yet, turned away around age 14 and I am 17 now. I used to go to Church every week and spend my time reading the Bible because of its vivid adventures, so I know the bible somewhat.

Here are my questions:

-If Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with the Tree of Knowledge (i.e. The tree that would tell them from right and wrong), how were they to know not to eat from the fruit if they could not differentiate between right and wrong?

That is a misreading of the text. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil -- did not inform Adam "how to be good" nor was it a "tutorial on how to be evil."

When God created life on this planet -- Creation WEEK - he said that all was "GOOD". Adam and Eve were already GOOD -- the tree of knowledge would add to what they knew about GOOD -- by adding EVIL in that rebellion IS evil. By definition simply DOING what God said NOT to do "was evil".

In 1John 3 we are told that "violation of God's Law IS SIN". That alone makes it evil.

So not a wikipedia download of what evil means -- rather the act of EXPERIENCING evil by actually doint it.

-What race were Adam and Eve? How is it we have come to be with asians, hispanics, whites, blacks, and all the other races/hair colors/ cultures?

Their gene pool was the base from which all others diverge -- hint -- take a look at the various kinds of dogs. Not much of a stretch there.

-Did they truly live as long as the bible stated? Somewhat close to 800 years?

Yes -- but when you constrast "did they truly" vs "As the Bible Stated" you are arguing either for a video or something in the Bible that says "nope -- I did not really mean what I said".

We have neither.

-Is it not contradictory for God to smite an entire city because of their homosexuality? (Sodom and Gamorrah [sp?])

The entire city was corrupt according to the text of Genesis. Also take a look at Leviticus 18 -- that sin is one of the sins that God said he judged the nations for that existed prior to Israel AND in that chapter God said that IF Israel engaged in those same sins he would wipe them out as well.

Believe it.

-Why is there suffering?

Go back to step 1 -- top of post... Adam and Eve sinned.

Had they not sinned - no starvation, no predation, no disease, no suffering. God MADE the whole thing perfect, sinless, harmless.

In Job, it is suggested it is to test our faith and to reward those who remain faithful even in the harshest of times. Yet then why does God supposedly lead Moses into Egypt to deliver the Jews through a series of Miracles? And then why, later, does God leave the Jews to burn during the Holocaust?

JUST as God told Abraham that his people could not take over the land of Caanan because "The sin of the Amorite is not yet complete" Gen 15:16 so ALSO Daniel predicts in Dan 9 that there were 490 years of propbation left for Israel after a decree would go out to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel lived during the time of Babylonian captivity of Israel)

Near then end of that 490 years they rejected the Messiah and Jesus said to the Jews (in Matt 23) "Behold your house is left unto you desolate" (referring to the temple and the curse of Solomon given in 1Kings 9:8.

The Holocaust was nothing compared to what the Roman Emperor did to the Jews - and after that for 500 years it was then illegal for Jews to even BE in the land of Israel.

-If we regard the entire OId Testament as metaphorical and to be taken symbolically, why did Jesus sacrifice himself for us? Was it not to wipe away Original Sin? Which came from Adam and Eve eating from the tree?

Which is WHY we don't do that.

Recall that there was no NT when the NT writers were writing -- ALL references in the NT "text" to "scripture" -- quoted authorotatively as fact in the NT -- is a reference to the OT.

-How are we to know when the Second Coming of Christ is? I mean, if people believe that Jesus was honestly the first coming, how do we know history will not repeat itself? Jesus came, called himself the Son of God, and he was brutally nailed to 2x4's by his own people because of blasphemy. I think the only thing that will convince people of the Second Coming of Christ would have to be a display of power, which, would render the idea of faith useless.

Read Matthew 24 -- the disciples ask him the same question and he gives a pretty detailed answer of the form "ALL will see the Coming of the Son of man .. ALL tribes of earth will mourn.. HE will send forth His angels and gather His elect from all over the earth".

Paul says "He will be revealed in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who persecute you"
2Thessalonians 1:7-8. Pretty hard to miss.

Jesus' first coming involved emptying himself - coming as an infant -- being like us -- and then dying for the sins of the whole world.

The second coming (described in Rev 19) shows him coming with the Armies of heaven and wiping out the wicked entirely.

I don't think anyone will miss it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[John]

Here are some more "contradictions" long debunked.

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=88
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=89
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=90
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=91

Enjoy.

 

[ctm32]

Hey ellusion,
I'm right there with you. The agnostic thing I'm not too into placing myself in category. That I feel is the absolute major problem with all religions, including christianity which happens to be the most divided belief of all the beliefs.
I won't quote bible verses at you because though I have faith that there is a creator/author of the universe and all life in it, and that Jesus Christ did come to earth to free us, (one of the creations) from ourselves, the modern christian view of God is either extremely boxed in over simplified with no question to belief at all.
For example.
A majority of the modern christian population base their lifestyle on the words of what is widely called "the bible"
quoting and paraphrasing from the book as in stating facts and evidence about life all together.
often forgetting that
1. over 1500 years ago, there was no such thing as the bible.
2. nearly 2000 years ago there were no such things as the apistles, which make up a majority of the new testament.
the new testament was many different letters and second, third, etc. accounts that were scattered over many areas, then gathered up and bound under one book by a group of people who worked for a roman emperor.
in turn this book was then formulated by the full grown christian church that took nearly 500 years after the resurrection of Christ to come about. the new testament was bound with transcribed copies of the hebrew text (old testament) which the books in it were also scattered over many areas.
All this comes about under many many various pressures and scrutiny, all of which are transformed by man himself. Man whom the bible says are corrupt and wicked.
Now would it stand to reason that man would have his own agenda at presenting what is to be accepted as the word of God?
Go check out matthew 12 and see what jesus himself says about God's word and man's interference.
Even God's chosen people changed a lot of things, added their own laws, etc. and jesus says that God is above all things......that includes paper and ink.

Let me share with you some words of encouragement.

There is one definite truth that no follower of Christ can deny, in any religious faction.
Christ came and sacrificed himself to tear down the veil and reveal god so that ALL who seek shall find.
If you want to know God?
Completely disregard what others try to coax you into believing is the "truth" and just simply seek God and the truth will be revealed through God.
God is not in a book.
God is not in a building.
God is with you already, you just have to open your eyes.

take care