Biblical Mary!

[GodsGrace]

You can reach out to me directly.

Did you even bother to read what you copy and pasted in your post? It supports exactly what I posted to you previously. Here is what you control-v pasted from John Gill...

"And his brethren; not strictly so, but either the sons of Joseph by a former wife; or Mary's, or Joseph's brothers or sisters sons, and so cousins to Christ; it being usual with the Jews to call such, and even more distant relations, brethren:

James; the son of Alphaeus, or Cleophas, one of Christ's disciples..." - John Gill (https://christianforums.net/threads/biblical-mary.87138/post-1629463)


Gill does not state these brothers of the Lord are uterine sibling's of Jesus. Your source torpedoed your own argument.

I find it interesting how some Catholics believe Jesus had siblings and some Protestants believe He did not.
Many years ago I tried to study this a bit on my own.
It was too difficult due to language, culture, scripture, etc.
I couldn't take it! So I gave up.
I don't think about it too much...I'm not sure what difference it makes.
In a post up above I asked if Mary could not be chaste even if she had a "normal" marriage.
I think she could because of her nature.
But we can't know too much about this and shouldn't wander too far from what those who knew her say about her.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is required of course
The sacrifice of Christ is the source of all graces Jn 1:16
All graces come to us thru Mary as Christ came thru mary

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

I'm sorry Bible, I just can't agree.
Protestants like to say that The Ark is a type of Jesus.
Those who are with Jesus are saved, and the others are not.
Baptism can also be seen in this story of Noah.

What I cannot agree with is the dispensation of grace.
There are so many verses on this, I wouldn't know where to start.
Maybe we could start a thread on this???
No,,,,maybe not.

I'll just give you a couple of verses and tell me what you think...

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved BY GRACE, through faith.
Salvation is a gift from God....this is a grace.
It does not mention the church or Mary (and I do love Mary, the mother of our Lord).

Titus 2:11 tells us that the grace of God has appeared (Jesus) bringing salvation to all people.
No mention of church or Mary.

And what could be more clear than
1 Peter 5:10
10And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.



Even John 1:16, which you posted, states that we receive grace upon grace from Jesus....

 

[Walpole]

I find it interesting how some Catholics believe Jesus had siblings and some Protestants believe He did not.
Many years ago I tried to study this a bit on my own.
It was too difficult due to language, culture, scripture, etc.
I couldn't take it! So I gave up.
I don't think about it too much...I'm not sure what difference it makes.
In a post up above I asked if Mary could not be chaste even if she had a "normal" marriage.
I think she could because of her nature.

Some Catholics believe Jesus had siblings? Once again, Mary's perpetual virginity is a dogma of the Catholic faith. It is a relatively modern Evangelical belief that Mary had subsequent maternities. Most of the progenitors of Protestantism held to her perpetual virginity.

Joseph and Mary's marriage was not ordinary in that its teleological end was not procreation, but rather to point to the Kingdom of God. Since they were in the presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Son of God, their life of continence, like that of their Jesus', points to the heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to an earthly and carnal one. Theirs was the most unique marriage in history.

“In normal marriages, unity in the flesh is the symbol of its consummation, and the ecstasy which accompanies a consummation is only a foretaste of the joy that comes to the soul when it attains union with God through grace. But in the case of Mary and Joseph, there was no need of the symbol of the unity of flesh. Why bother with the flickering candles of the flesh, when the Light of the World is their love? Love usually makes husband and wife one; in the case of Mary and Joseph, it was not their combined loves but Jesus Who made them one. No deeper love ever beat under the roof of the world since the beginning, nor will it ever beat, even unto the end.” - Fulton Sheen, The World’s First Love

But we can't know too much about this and shouldn't wander too far from what those who knew her say about her.

I often remind myself the nativity narratives in St. Luke's Gospel (as well as St. Matthew's), were written after the actual occurrence of the event. Neither St. Luke nor St. Matthew were present when it occurred. Hence the only possible source for these narratives was Mary herself.

"But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart."


I believe St. Luke's account (with Mary as the source) sheds light on her perpetual virginity. Gabriel appears to Mary, who is already betrothed to Joseph. (Luke 1:27) Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive and bear a son. Mary's question to Gabriel is, "How will this be"? (future tense - Luke 1:34) Why would Mary ask how will it be that she will become pregnant - in the future - if she is already betrothed to Joseph? If you called your mother to tell her you just got engaged, and your mother said to you in excitement, "Congratulations Wondering! I am so happy for you and now I will finally be a grandmother!" Would it be logical to reply to her statement with, "How will this be?"

Why did Mary, who was betrothed to Joseph, ask Gabriel how it will be (future tense) that she will have a child? The reason for Mary's puzzlement to Gabriel is because her life was ordered toward something greater.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some Catholics believe Jesus had siblings? Once again, Mary's perpetual virginity is a dogma of the Catholic faith. It is a relatively modern Evangelical belief that Mary had subsequent maternities. Most of the progenitors of Protestantism held to her perpetual virginity.

I'll post a link.
I heard about this many years ago...it may not necessarily have been the person in the article....

Catholics Raise Contrary Views on Jesus' Siblings : Dogma: Some experts join Protestants in belief that Mary had other children. Conservatives fiercely object.

A clear message shines through the familiar Christmas creche, with its depiction of a demure Mary and bearded Joseph flanking a halo-lit baby Jesus in a rustic manger: Jesus was an only child.

www.latimes.com

Joseph and Mary's marriage was not ordinary in that its teleological end was not procreation, but rather to point to the Kingdom of God. Since they were in the presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Son of God, their life of continence, like that of their Jesus', points to the heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to an earthly and carnal one. Theirs was the most unique marriage in history.

Question on the above:
Don't you believe Jesus aim was to create (set-up) the Kingdom of God here on earth?
A literal Kingdom, but an invisible one - to make the world be a better place.
Those of us that make up the Body of Christ would be the members of that Kingdom.
I believe Jesus preached on this more than anything else.

“In normal marriages, unity in the flesh is the symbol of its consummation, and the ecstasy which accompanies a consummation is only a foretaste of the joy that comes to the soul when it attains union with God through grace. But in the case of Mary and Joseph, there was no need of the symbol of the unity of flesh. Why bother with the flickering candles of the flesh, when the Light of the World is their love? Love usually makes husband and wife one; in the case of Mary and Joseph, it was not their combined loves but Jesus Who made them one. No deeper love ever beat under the roof of the world since the beginning, nor will it ever beat, even unto the end.” - Fulton Sheen, The World’s First Love

Beautiful !
I still like Bishop Sheen.

I often remind myself the nativity narratives in St. Luke's Gospel (as well as St. Matthew's), were written after the actual occurrence of the event. Neither St. Luke nor St. Matthew were present when it occurred. Hence the only possible source for these narratives was Mary herself.

"But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart."

Agreed.

I believe St. Luke's account (with Mary as the source) sheds light on her perpetual virginity. Gabriel appears to Mary, who is already betrothed to Joseph. (Luke 1:27) Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive and bear a son. Mary's question to Gabriel is, "How will this be"? (future tense - Luke 1:34) Why would Mary ask how will it be that she will become pregnant - in the future - if she is already betrothed to Joseph? If you called your mother to tell her you just got engaged, and your mother said to you in excitement, "Congratulations Wondering! I am so happy for you and now I will finally be a grandmother!" Would it be logical to reply to her statement with, "How will this be?"

Why did Mary, who was betrothed to Joseph, ask Gabriel how it will be (future tense) that she will have a child? The reason for Mary's puzzlement to Gabriel is because her life was ordered toward something greater.

You're too intelligent for this Walpole!
Joseph and Mary were betrothed....not married.
The betrothal period was one year.
Joseph considered not marrying her but then had his dream.

Mary asked Gabriel how it could be that she would bear a son since she had not had relations with anyone....
this would be a normal question. This is when Gabriel explained that she would be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
Your analogy is not the same as what happened.

 

[GodsGrace]

Walpole

I found this on google.
I didn't read it but it seems good.
It can also be for others that are interested in this.
It SEEMS to be non-biased, but I only skimmed through a little of it...
Just no time right now....

 

[Walpole]

I'll post a link.
I heard about this many years ago...it may not necessarily have been the person in the article....

Catholics Raise Contrary Views on Jesus' Siblings : Dogma: Some experts join Protestants in belief that Mary had other children. Conservatives fiercely object.

A clear message shines through the familiar Christmas creche, with its depiction of a demure Mary and bearded Joseph flanking a halo-lit baby Jesus in a rustic manger: Jesus was an only child.

www.latimes.com

Question on the above:
Don't you believe Jesus aim was to create (set-up) the Kingdom of God here on earth?
A literal Kingdom, but an invisible one - to make the world be a better place.
Those of us that make up the Body of Christ would be the members of that Kingdom.
I believe Jesus preached on this more than anything else.

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God is the messianic kingdom Christ came to establish as the means of salvation for all who would become faithful members of it and perfectly realized in heaven.

Beautiful !
I still like Bishop Sheen.



Agreed.


You're too intelligent for this Walpole!
Joseph and Mary were betrothed....not married.
The betrothal period was one year.
Joseph considered not marrying her but then had his dream.

Mary asked Gabriel how it could be that she would bear a son since she had not had relations with anyone....
this would be a normal question. This is when Gabriel explained that she would be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
Your analogy is not the same as what happened.

In Jewish antiquity, a betrothal was considered a marriage contract, even though the parties were not yet officially married. This is explicitly demonstrated by St. Matthew whereby Joseph and Mary, who while not yet married, where betrothed and thereby "spouses". Thus Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary quietly. (cf. Mt 1:19) (You cannot divorce a non-spouse.)

Dr. Michael Satlow is an expert on how marriage was contracted in Jewish antiquity. Here is what he writes on the topic...

---> https://thegemara.com/a-detached-kiddushin/

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God is the messianic kingdom Christ came to establish as the means of salvation for all who would become faithful members of it and perfectly realized in heaven.

In Jewish antiquity, a betrothal was considered a marriage contract, even though the parties were not yet officially married. This is explicitly demonstrated by St. Matthew whereby Joseph and Mary, who while not yet married, where betrothed and thereby "spouses". Thus Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary quietly. (cf. Mt 1:19) (You cannot divorce a non-spouse.)

Dr. Michael Satlow is an expert on how marriage was contracted in Jewish antiquity. Here is what he writes on the topic...

---> https://thegemara.com/a-detached-kiddushin/

Hi Walpole
I can't remember what I said, but, of course, all you say is true. Just want to say that they weren't living together yet...

Thanks for the link!

 

[WIP]

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God is the messianic kingdom Christ came to establish as the means of salvation for all who would become faithful members of it and perfectly realized in heaven.

In Jewish antiquity, a betrothal was considered a marriage contract, even though the parties were not yet officially married. This is explicitly demonstrated by St. Matthew whereby Joseph and Mary, who while not yet married, where betrothed and thereby "spouses". Thus Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary quietly. (cf. Mt 1:19) (You cannot divorce a non-spouse.)

Dr. Michael Satlow is an expert on how marriage was contracted in Jewish antiquity. Here is what he writes on the topic...

---> https://thegemara.com/a-detached-kiddushin/

Just curious. Were betrothals also prearranged at that time?

 

[GodsGrace]

Just curious. Were betrothals also prearranged at that time?

I believe the reply is at the beginning of the linked article,,,

 

[Walpole]

Just curious. Were betrothals also prearranged at that time?

Some where, some weren't. (Sorry to sound like a politician!) It depended on circumstances, such as whether a father was still living, age, etc.

Satlow addresses this in his book, Jewish Marriage in Antiquity.