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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Biblical Mary!

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Although I agree that Miriam (Mary) had children other than Jesus, this verse doesn't prove your point.
That verse refers to her spiritual children Christians
Isa 7:14 matt 1:21 one son singular
Lk 1:34 no sex
Mary has no biological child but Jesus by the HS
 

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Mother of our salvation Lk 2:40
Lk 1:30 found our salvation lost by adam
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation
 

Bible

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John 10:16, "I have other sheep that do not come from this sheepfold. I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd." A flock consists of many sheep; there are many NT churches. They are mentioned throughout the New Testament, yet the Catholic denomination is not mentioned even once in the entire Bible.
Matt 16:18 one singular church founded by chin peter and the apostles and their successors only Christ has authority to found and build the church
Eph 2:20 no quote unquote reformer was an apostle or has any authority to do anything, where does the Bible say to have a reformation
How can that which God has established be reformed???
How can doctrine reveled by God be reformed???
 

jaybo

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That verse refers to her spiritual children Christians
Isa 7:14 matt 1:21 one son singular
Lk 1:34 no sex
Mary has no biological child but Jesus by the HS
Oy vey! Simply because Isaiah and Matthew say that the virgin will have a son (singular) means that she won't be having twins, triplets, etc. It clearly doesn't mean that she won't have other children.

Luke 1:34 says "Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?” All this means is that she had not yet had intercourse, not that she will never bear another child after Jesus.

Neither of these verses in any way indicate that Mary never had another biological child.

It's nothing but a human invention to say that Mary didn't have other children, since Scripture says that Jesus had four brothers. Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him." and Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, Judas?"

If Matthew wrote that He had a mother and brothers, should I believe you or the Bible?

Why can't you understand what Scripture says instead of reading into it something that isn't there?
 
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jaybo

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Mother of our salvation Lk 2:40
Lk 1:30 found our salvation lost by adam
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation
Okay... last time I will discuss this with you.

Luke 2:39-40, "So when Joseph and Mary had performed] everything according to the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom, and the favor of God was upon him." It doesn't say a single thing about "Mother of our salvation".

Luke 1:30, " So the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God!" There is nothing-nada, zilch about finding our salvation lost by Adam"

Luke 1:38, "So Mary said, “Yes, I am a servant of the Lord; let this happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her." It clearly doesn't say that Mary consented to our salvation; that is a wild, unscriptural interpretation.

Look, I believe what the Bible says. I don't believe the interpretations that change the meaning of what is written. You can go ahead and glorify Mary by changing the Bible's meaning, but that means nothing to me or anyone else who believes the Bible instead of human misinterpretations.

Sola scriptura

I won't discuss this with you any further.
 

Bible

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Oy vey! Simply because Isaiah and Matthew say that the virgin will have a son (singular) means that she won't be having twins, triplets, etc. It clearly doesn't mean that she won't have other children.

Luke 1:34 says "Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?” All this means is that she had not yet had intercourse, not that she will never bear another child after Jesus.

Neither of these verses in any way indicate that Mary never had another biological child.

It's nothing but a human invention to say that Mary didn't have other children, since Scripture says that Jesus had four brothers. Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him." and Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, Judas?"

If Matthew wrote that He had a mother and brothers, should I believe you or the Bible?

Why can't you understand what Scripture says instead of reading into it something that isn't there?
The church for 2000 yrs taught perpetual virginity and that defends the divinity of Christ even the so called reformers defend it only fundamentalists deny it
Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
 

Bible

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Okay... last time I will discuss this with you.

Luke 2:39-40, "So when Joseph and Mary had performed] everything according to the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom, and the favor of God was upon him." It doesn't say a single thing about "Mother of our salvation".

Luke 1:30, " So the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God!" There is nothing-nada, zilch about finding our salvation lost by Adam"

Luke 1:38, "So Mary said, “Yes, I am a servant of the Lord; let this happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her." It clearly doesn't say that Mary consented to our salvation; that is a wild, unscriptural interpretation.

Look, I believe what the Bible says. I don't believe the interpretations that change the meaning of what is written. You can go ahead and glorify Mary by changing the Bible's meaning, but that means nothing to me or anyone else who believes the Bible instead of human misinterpretations.

Sola scriptura

I won't discuss this with you any further.
Sorry it’s Lk 2:30 mother of our salvation
Jesus in his person is our salvation and Mary is his mother
The mother of divine grace
She is the throne of grace in Heb 4:16
 

JLB

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Although I agree that Miriam (Mary) had children other than Jesus, this verse doesn't prove your point.

It really doesnt because Revelation 12 is not about Mary.

However, since he tried to use that verse to prove Mary was the Mother of the Church, my response was within the framework if his perception.



JLB
 

Bible

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It really doesnt because Revelation 12 is not about Mary.

However, since he tried to use that verse to prove Mary was the Mother of the Church, my response was within the framework if his perception.



JLB
Rev 12 the child is Jesus so the woman in a His mother Mary ever Virgin
Clothed with the sun immaculate purity
Not israel that was in union with Satan in killing Christ
Gen 3:15 Mary is his adversary
Enmity total war none of his works are in her
And spiritual mother rev 12:17 fits with Jesus giving his disciples his mother to be their spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27
A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
 

for_his_glory

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Mother of our salvation Lk 2:40
Lk 1:30 found our salvation lost by adam
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation
wow!!! you sure know how to twist scripture to support you doctrines as none of what you say is written there.
 

Bible

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wow!!! you sure know how to twist scripture to support you doctrines as none of what you say is written there.
Twist really?

lk 1:30 Mary found favor? What favor she brings the savior into the world
Lk 1:28 God is seeking her consent, just as Eve consented to the fall Mary consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 be it done unto me!
Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation
His person is our salvation
Mary is his mother
He is God and our salvation
Mary if the mother of the person of Jesus christ
Mother of God Lk 1:43 also
Mother of our salvation
And our spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 

for_his_glory

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Mary found our salvation!
It was God using Mary because of her lineage to the throne of David and being yet a virgin that she was chosen for the Christ child to sit (not literally sit) on the throne of David. It was the sacrifice of Christ who is our salvation, not Mary.

If Mary was to remain a virgin all her life then I would think God would have kept her single telling Joseph to not marry her.
 

for_his_glory

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Twist really?

lk 1:30 Mary found favor? What favor she brings the savior into the world
Lk 1:28 God is seeking her consent, just as Eve consented to the fall Mary consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 be it done unto me!
Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation
His person is our salvation
Mary is his mother
He is God and our salvation
Mary if the mother of the person of Jesus christ
Mother of God Lk 1:43 also
Mother of our salvation
And our spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
according to the traditional doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.
 

jaybo

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Matthew 7:15-20, " “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will recognize them by their fruit."

This also applies to Bible interpretation and understanding.
 

for_his_glory

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Twist really?

lk 1:30 Mary found favor? What favor she brings the savior into the world
Lk 1:28 God is seeking her consent, just as Eve consented to the fall Mary consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 be it done unto me!
Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation
His person is our salvation
Mary is his mother
He is God and our salvation
Mary if the mother of the person of Jesus christ
Mother of God Lk 1:43 also
Mother of our salvation
And our spiritual mother Jn 19:26-27

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mary found favor as being a virgin and was of the lineage of David through his son Nathan in why God chose her as Jesus had to be born through the lineage of David, Matthew 1:1-17.

Jesus is our salvation, not Mary as she was God's handmaiden who found favor in Him, Luke 1:38

Mary is the mother of Jesus as He being the son of man in the flesh born into the world. She is not the mother of God as God is Alpha and Omega. Luke 1:43 Mary is the mother of Christ as He being our Lord and Savior. Mary has nothing to do with our salvation. Did she shed her blood on the cross to make atonement for sin, no.

John 19:26-27 says nothing about Mary being our Spiritual mother. Jesus looked at His mother then John's mother who is also called Mary, and John took his own mother into his house.

What does Matthew 7:18 have to do with any of this.
 

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I am reposting what I have previously written as I read someone's post here now positing that Mary had no choice / did not consent to being the Mother of God. (This assertion renders God a rapist.)

Let's look at Luke 2 and demonstrate how Mary was not forced, coerced or raped, but rather acted with her will in cooperating with God's plan of salvation...

It is important to first always remember that God does not act with pure will. That is a Calvinist / Islamic version of God. Rather, He is the God of Logos and this is demonstrated beautifully in Luke's annunciation story.

The Archangel's words to Mary convey what will happen, not what did already happen. It is only after Mary receives an answer from the Archangel as to how it will be, does she give her fiat voluntatis. Let's look at St. Luke's description...

"And he [Gabriel] came to her and said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!' But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.' And Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I have no husband?' And the angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible.' And Mary said, 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.' And the angel departed from her.” (Luke 1:28-38)


What is going on here? First, Gabriel appears to Mary and addresses her not by her name, but rather by a title. ("Full of grace.") What is Mary's response to the Archangel? She asks him a question: "How can this be?" In other words, she brings the Archangel's message under consideration and only when he satisfies her reason does she give her consent, her fiat voluntatis. Mary's rational faculties are not suspended. She is not forced; rather, she is fully engaged as a rational human being. Mary knowingly and willingly chose the role God offered her.


St. Luke actually affirms this when he continues the story and he describes the name given our Blessed Lord after His birth...

"And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.” (Luke 2:21)

Did you catch that? "The name given by the angel before he was conceived…” Thus, St. Luke confirms the Incarnation occurred only after Mary’s fiat, not beforehand.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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The Immaculate Conception became infallible in 1950.
I bet the writers of the Bible didn't see that coming.
The assumption also came about in 1950.
 
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Bible

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Mary found favor as being a virgin and was of the lineage of David through his son Nathan in why God chose her as Jesus had to be born through the lineage of David, Matthew 1:1-17.

Jesus is our salvation, not Mary as she was God's handmaiden who found favor in Him, Luke 1:38

Mary is the mother of Jesus as He being the son of man in the flesh born into the world. She is not the mother of God as God is Alpha and Omega. Luke 1:43 Mary is the mother of Christ as He being our Lord and Savior. Mary has nothing to do with our salvation. Did she shed her blood on the cross to make atonement for sin, no.

John 19:26-27 says nothing about Mary being our Spiritual mother. Jesus looked at His mother then John's mother who is also called Mary, and John took his own mother into his house.

What does Matthew 7:18 have to do with any of this.
A sinner can’t bring our savior and salvation
 

for_his_glory

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A sinner can’t bring our savior and salvation
Just because she was a virgin and from the lineage of David how could we ever know if she ever commited any sin for after all we are all born with a nature to sin and we all have fallen short.

This is only speculation on your part because she is called pure, which means she never knew a man until after Jesus was born.
 

jaybo

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Sorry it’s Lk 2:30 mother of our salvation
Jesus in his person is our salvation and Mary is his mother
The mother of divine grace
She is the throne of grace in Heb 4:16
What??

There is nothing in my Bible that refers to Mary as the "mother of our salvation". It is borderline blasphemy. Salvation is from God alone. Acts 4:12, " And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.”

Hebrews 4:16, "Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help." It says nothing about Mary, no matter how far you s-t-r-e-t-c-h it.
 
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