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Truthfrees

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Firstborn was a title given AT BIRTH, not after subsequent maternities. (See Exodus 13:1-2) The “firstborn” were not given the title because there was a “second-born.” Rather, it is a title given at birth. Being the firstborn does not require subsequent siblings nor does it imply there are or will even be subsequent siblings.
that asn't my point - only born is different than first born

first born means the first - only begotten means there will never be others

so if mary was to never have any others the term only begotten would have been used - not firstborn
 

Truthfrees

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Firstborn was a title given AT BIRTH, not after subsequent maternities. (See Exodus 13:1-2) The “firstborn” were not given the title because there was a “second-born.” Rather, it is a title given at birth. Being the firstborn does not require subsequent siblings nor does it imply there are or will even be subsequent siblings.
I've addressed this many times in these forums. Rather than re-type my answer, I hope you don't mind if I simply direct you to one of the times I have posted the answer to this objection...
---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632408
thanks for the link - great post - there are for sure many mary's and many james and many other names that are common but that does not include the 4 stated sons of mary and joseph -so it appears one mary had 2 sons - and mary and joseph had 4 sons - and another mary appears to have no sons

so if you say the verse that says his mother and brothers came to take charge of him means his mother mary and the sons of a mary cleophas the writer could have easily said but didn't
 
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Truthfrees

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The twelve sons of Jacob had 4 mothers
The Bible says no sex ever Lk 1:34
It never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept Jesus
mother and brothers can only mean they are sons of his mother because joseph only had one wife

it might match mary if this had not been plainly said about her
- Matthew 1:24-25 - firstborn is different than only born - so he was the only-begotten of God but the firstborn of mary - God did not begat other sons but mary did with joseph
- and Mark 6:3 - joseph only had one wife so these brothers and sisters were born after the firstborn
- and Matthew 12:46 - mother and brothers at the same place at the same time? - this had to be mary's other sons
 

Bible

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true - and it was clearly stated who the 4 mothers were - in mary and joseph's case there is only mary and joseph and no other ever stated
No other children either!

how is that Raquel was the spiritual mother of israel
 
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Because it’s the truth.

Joseph and Mary's marriage was not ordinary in that its teleological end was not procreation, but rather to point to the Kingdom of God. Since they were in the presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Son of God, their life of continence, like that of their Son's, points to the heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to an earthly and carnal one.

“This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.” (Ezekiel 44:1–2)
So what impact would not believing Mary remained a virgin after Christ's birth have on the eternal estate of a person converted in Christ Jesus ?
That was the question I posed .
 

Truthfrees

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No other children either!

how is that Raquel was the spiritual mother of israel
how is it that his mother and brothers turns into something so far fetched? - if it was his spiritual brothers the writer would have said so

the verses we are discussing are plain historical statements - not mystical prophetic utterances - the people who knew Jesus and his mother and brothers and sisters were speaking plainly -
 

Bible

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You got Scripture for that?
I'm trying to follow this thread.
Oh yes sorry
Behold thy mother!

What does Behold in scripture mean?

A marvelous thing!
A miraculous action!
A wonder!
An awe inspiring declaration!

Behold thy mother!

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!

What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.
 

jaybo

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The adoration of Mary as some sort of holier-than-thou woman has no basis in Scripture. She was chosen by God for one purpose: to give birth to Jesus and, along with Joseph, parent Him and His brothers, until He was independent.

The need to elevate Mary into some sort of semi-divine person stems from a need to exalt her according to some non-Biblical cultural requirement. The Bible tells something entirely different. Even Jesus said, "Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting[c] to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!"

If Mary was actually whom so claim to be exalted was actually true, why does Scripture present an entirely different picture?
 

Bible

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how is it that his mother and brothers turns into something so far fetched? - if it was his spiritual brothers the writer would have said so

the verses we are discussing are plain historical statements - not mystical prophetic utterances - the people who knew Jesus and his mother and brothers and sisters were speaking plainly -
Still don’t make it children of mary

could be cousins cos in Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother like Abraham and lot
Or children of Joseph by a prior marriage
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.
 

Bible

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The adoration of Mary as some sort of holier-than-thou woman has no basis in Scripture. She was chosen by God for one purpose: to give birth to Jesus and, along with Joseph, parent Him and His brothers, until He was independent.

The need to elevate Mary into some sort of semi-divine person stems from a need to exalt her according to some non-Biblical cultural requirement. The Bible tells something entirely different. Even Jesus said, "Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting[c] to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!"

If Mary was actually whom so claim to be exalted was actually true, why does Scripture present an entirely different picture?
Auto-matic fundamentalist response
Mary that means adoration idol worship
That’s you’re fundamentalist brainwashing

Read luke 1:28 to 49
 

Truthfrees

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Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
except in greek original it is singular not plural - that is the nice thing abou greek and hebrew - the grammar tells you if he is speaking to a male or female - and one or many

english is different - that is why the original transcripts were written in languages that were more grammatically clear than english
 

Walpole

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thanks for the link - great post - there are for sure many mary's and many james and many other names that are common but that does not include the 4 stated sons of mary and joseph -so it appears one mary had 2 sons - and mary and joseph had 4 sons - and another mary appears to have no sons

so if you say the verse that says his mother and brothers came to take charge of him means his mother mary and the sons of a mary cleophas the writer could have easily said but didn't
Scripture does say Jesus had brothers (and sisters). However, Scripture shows they were not uterine brothers. As I stated in previous posts here, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than a uterine or agnate sibling. Furthermore, Scripture calls Jesus THE son of Mary, not A son of Mary.
 

Truthfrees

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Still don’t make it children of mary

could be cousins cos in Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother like Abraham and lot
Or children of Joseph by a prior marriage
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.
so you are saying joseph had sex with mary after Jesus was born and she never had anymore children in all the years she was joseph's wife?
 

Walpole

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thanks for the link - great post - there are for sure many mary's and many james and many other names that are common but that does not include the 4 stated sons of mary and joseph -so it appears one mary had 2 sons - and mary and joseph had 4 sons - and another mary appears to have no sons

so if you say the verse that says his mother and brothers came to take charge of him means his mother mary and the sons of a mary cleophas the writer could have easily said but didn't
Once again firstborn is a title given at birth. Being the firstborn does not require subsequent siblings nor does it imply there are or will even be subsequent siblings.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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The adoration of Mary as some sort of holier-than-thou woman has no basis in Scripture. She was chosen by God for one purpose: to give birth to Jesus and, along with Joseph, parent Him and His brothers, until He was independent.

The need to elevate Mary into some sort of semi-divine person stems from a need to exalt her according to some non-Biblical cultural requirement. The Bible tells something entirely different. Even Jesus said, "Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting[c] to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!"

If Mary was actually whom so claim to be exalted was actually true, why does Scripture present an entirely different picture?
Someone had to replace Diana.
 

Bible

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except in greek original it is singular not plural - that is the nice thing abou greek and hebrew - the grammar tells you if he is speaking to a male or female - and one or many

english is different - that is why the original transcripts were written in languages that were more grammatically clear than english
Still says disciple so John represents all disciples
 
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