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Walpole

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tradition is talking about the Torah and God's words as given to moses and all the prophets

the nt is letters and gospels - the only scripture in paul's day was torah
Paul wasn't teaching the Torah to the faithful at Thessalonica. He was teaching them the message of Jesus Christ!

---> "...God has picked you out as the first-fruits in the harvest of salvation, by sanctifying your spirits and convincing you of his truth; he has called you, through our preaching, to attain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Stand firm, then, brethren, and hold by the traditions you have learned, in word or in writing, from us. (2 Thes 2:12-14)
 

Truthfrees

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He is also speaking to Jews in Hebrews...

---> "In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means..." (Heb 1:1)
yes the book of hebrews is written to jews and those who attend services with the jews - a mix of traditionally taught jews and unlearned gentiles
 

Walpole

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see as i said the Torah is the only Word of God at that time - everything God said was already written down by the prophets - the nt are the letters explaining Torah to the gentiles - if you notice the apostles to the jews did not have to post so much teaching because as per Acts15:21 every jew went to synagogue every shabbat to hear moses - they had done this their entire life - only gentiles had never heard the Words of God or the covenants of God or the promises of God as recorded in Torah
St. Paul says the word of God is not confined to the Torah. The epistle to the Hebrews opens with this very teaching. ("many ways and by many means")
 

Walpole

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Right.
But would it make sense for God to pick a special woman to n
bear a Son?

If Mary had a sin nature, she'd be just like everyone else.

Why do you think God found favor in her?
I am convinced all of this disdain for Mary stems from a lack of understanding of the Incarnation.
 

Walpole

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read the nt again - paul in acts is declared as the apostle to the gentiles and the other apostles are declared the apostles to the jews

check it out - very little teaching in the apostles letters - but extensive teaching in paul's letters
So was Peter...

"And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, 'Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.'" (Acts 15:7-9)


But this red herring you have introduced has nothing to do with the fact that the Scriptures teach the Word of God is not confined to the Scriptures alone!
 

jaybo

 
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Right.
But would it make sense for God to pick a special woman to n
bear a Son?

If Mary had a sin nature, she'd be just like everyone else.

Why do you think God found favor in her?
How should I know. I'm not God.

There is nothing in Scripture that says that Mary was sinless. She was a human and "all have sinned and and fall short of the glory of God. " Romans 3:22b-23

BTW, Mary was just like everyone else: born under sin. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where it specifically says that Mary was sinless?
 

wondering

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I am convinced all of this disdain for Mary stems from a lack of understanding of the Incarnation.
Protestants seem to understand the incarnation.
Do you think the CC may have elevated Mary too much ?

Even Scott Hahn had a problem with Mariology when he converted from Protestantism.
 

jaybo

 
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Protestants seem to understand the incarnation.
Do you think the CC may have elevated Mary too much ?

Even Scott Hahn had a problem with Mariology when he converted from Protestantism.
Yes, way too much! I have written earlier that Catholics have created an unbiblical Mary based, not on the Bible, but on a secular, cultural need to manufacture a glorified woman that is not based on Scripture.
 

wondering

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How should I know. I'm not God.

There is nothing in Scripture that says that Mary was sinless. She was a human and "all have sinned and and fall short of the glory of God. " Romans 3:22b-23

BTW, Mary was just like everyone else: born under sin. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where it specifically says that Mary was sinless?
I know you stick to the bible Jaybo...but this is why you have a problem with the early church,,,which is not found in the bible.

To me Luke makes it apparent that Mary was very special. I believe God picked her and prepared her for this role. One of the ways could have been to let her be born without the sin nature. It's a thought.
 

wondering

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Yes, way too much! I have written earlier that Catholics have created an unbiblical Mary based, not on the Bible, but on a secular, cultural need to manufacture a glorified woman that is not based on Scripture.
I've considered this too...
Perhaps to offset all those female gods in which the greeks believed.

OTOH ,, it also makes sense that she would necessarily be different from every other human.

It seems to me that we don't have a problem glorifying Abraham, Moses, David, etc.

Is she at least as important as they are?
 

Walpole

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Protestants seem to understand the incarnation.
I don't think so. I think most heresies have a lack of understanding of the Incarnation at their root.

The Church's Marian dogmas actual protect and safeguard orthodox Trinitarian theology and Christology.
Do you think the CC may have elevated Mary too much ?
No, I do not. I think she is given her rightful honor in light of her role in the economy of salvation.
Even Scott Hahn had a problem with Mariology when he converted from Protestantism.
I think this is common among converts. The main reason being the multitude of lies perpetuated by Protestants such as Catholics worship Mary, Catholics believe Mary is a god, etc. You can see that in real time here as another poster in this very thread even insinuated Catholics believe she is part of the Godhead.

Once the lies are repudiated, many converts come to love her and even have a devotion to her, like Scott Hahn does today.
 

jaybo

 
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I know you stick to the bible Jaybo...but this is why you have a problem with the early church,,,which is not found in the bible.

To me Luke makes it apparent that Mary was very special. I believe God picked her and prepared her for this role. One of the ways could have been to let her be born without the sin nature. It's a thought.
Of course I stick to the Bible. I'm not sure what that has to do with the early church ... or the church at any time. The Bible is the foundation upon which everything is built. "The church" must adhere to the Word of God, not go off on multiple tangents, such as the Catholic Chiurch.

One of the most egregious inventions of the CC is the elevation of Mary way above her Biblical status. God did pick her and prepare her for the role of being Jesus' mother and she and Joseph raised Him -- how was he prepared? -- but her role in the Bible story is minor. She was a normal person; there is no indication anywhere that she was sinless.
 

jaybo

 
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I've considered this too...
Perhaps to offset all those female gods in which the greeks believed.

OTOH ,, it also makes sense that she would necessarily be different from every other human.

It seems to me that we don't have a problem glorifying Abraham, Moses, David, etc.

Is she at least as important as they are?
No, she is not as important as Abraham, Moses, or David. Aside from the Lord, those three are the most important people in the Bible; they are mentioned extensively in both Testaments. Mary is a minor figure in the Bible, mentioned far less than others, e.g., Peter, John, Mark, Paul, and others.

The glorification of Mary is not Biblical; it's an invention of the Catholic church to satisfy a need to elevate a virgin woman to an unBiblical status. For better or for worse, the Bible is mostly about men.

BTW, I am not sexist; just the opposite. I have been happily married for 52 years and consider women to be completely equal to men in every area (except perhaps physical strength).
 

Walpole

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Of course I stick to the Bible. I'm not sure what that has to do with the early church ... or the church at any time. The Bible is the foundation upon which everything is built. "The church" must adhere to the Word of God, not go off on multiple tangents, such as the Catholic Chiurch.

One of the most egregious inventions of the CC is the elevation of Mary way above her Biblical status. God did pick her and prepare her for the role of being Jesus' mother and she and Joseph raised Him -- how was he prepared? -- but her role in the Bible story is minor. She was a normal person; there is no indication anywhere that she was sinless.
What does the Bible call the pillar and foundation of the truth?

a. Itself (the Bible)
b. The Church
 

Truthfrees

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then it would read John please care for my mother!

why does she need to be his mother to care for her
Also rev 12:17 spiritual mother
paul told timothy to treat older men and older women like his father or mother -

ok i see you are taking the woman who had children and then also her other children to be mary - - i take her to be israel the first spiritual mother of all who turn to God and believe in and do as the God of israel says

that woman had God as her husband - mary had joseph as her husband - there is no scripture to say God called mary His wife

JJesus never said mary was God's wife either
 

Truthfrees

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And fundamentalist brainwashing
you claim those who stick with the written word are brainwashed but those who go outside God's word and listen to man-made dogmas are not brainwashed - i think you have this dynamic flipped backwards

i hope you can see how scriptural people will never be able to accept anything you are saying - if it is not clearly supported in scripture it will always be rejected
 
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for_his_glory

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It has everything to do with the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is the topic to which I was responding to another poster.

In Ezekiel 44, the prophet is given a vision of the holiness of the east gate of the Temple. We know our Blessed Lord said that His body is the true temple. (cf. John 2:19-21) Hence if Christ is the true temple prophesied by Ezekiel, then the gate by which He entered into this temple is Mary. She is hence the gate through which the God came in the flesh.

The prophet says the East gate (quite significant) is shut because the Lord has entered by it. For this reason it shall remain shut.
Of course Mary was the gateway, portal, vessel or handmaiden of the Lord that God used to birth the Christ child, but it may be stretching it a bit far to correlate this to Ezekiel 44. To insinuate that Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage after Jesus was born would mean they were never in complete bond with each other. This would mean they were never actually married as the tradition of the yichud showed that the couple were now married as they bonded together.
 

Truthfrees

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Paul wasn't teaching the Torah to the faithful at Thessalonica. He was teaching them the message of Jesus Christ!
quoting laws of what is allowed and what is not allowed is torah

check it out - everything paul said not to do God already said not to do in torah

speaking of the new covenant is also torah - torah means the ways of God - paul was for sure teaching the ways of God that every jew already knew form their lifetime of teaching - that is why the apostles to the jews did not write these sqme things to the jews - only the gentiles were a stranger to the covenants - - and came from a background paul called without God and without hope
 
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