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tdidymas

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Seriously? You havent shown one iota of evidence that your claims are correct. Anyone reading the passage in context can see that your claim is simply wrong.
Let's see how your theory works. Substitute "gentiles" for "you" and "Jews" for "us":

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people (Jews) in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to the gentiles from God the Jews' Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of the Jews' Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed the Jews in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose the Jews in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined the Jews for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given the Jews in the One he loves. 7 In him the Jews have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on the Jews. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to the Jews the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him the Jews were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that the Jews, who were the first to put the Jews' hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And the gentiles also were included in Christ when the gentiles heard the message of truth, the gospel of the gentiles' salvation. When the gentiles believed, the gentiles were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing the Jews' inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

If you read it carefully, it's nonsense!

The only nuance is "we who were the first to put our hope in Christ," meaning all Jesus' disciples who followed Him when He was alive. So when he says "you," he is talking about those he is writing to, the church in Ephesus, which consisted of both Jews and gentiles. They weren't "the first to hope in Christ" because they were converted more than a decade later.

But all the "us"es and "we"s are talking about the universal church, which are "God's holy people," and those "in Ephesus" are part of it. Just because he is writing to a specific church, doesn't mean those are the only people this epistle applies to. Paul expected (as he wrote elsewhere) that the epistle would be circulated to all the churches. Therefore, Paul was meaning that the "us" and "we" in this context applied to all various groups of Christians.

If what you claim is true, then gentiles aren't saved until they become Jews. But the fact that he says "when YOU believed, YOU were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing OUR inheritance..."
means that Paul is including the "you" with "us" in the inheritance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.

IMO you need to scrap your theory and properly exegete the context.
 

Butch5

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Let's see how your theory works. Substitute "gentiles" for "you" and "Jews" for "us":

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people (Jews) in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to the gentiles from God the Jews' Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of the Jews' Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed the Jews in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose the Jews in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined the Jews for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given the Jews in the One he loves. 7 In him the Jews have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on the Jews. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to the Jews the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him the Jews were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that the Jews, who were the first to put the Jews' hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And the gentiles also were included in Christ when the gentiles heard the message of truth, the gospel of the gentiles' salvation. When the gentiles believed, the gentiles were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing the Jews' inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

If you read it carefully, it's nonsense!

The only nuance is "we who were the first to put our hope in Christ," meaning all Jesus' disciples who followed Him when He was alive. So when he says "you," he is talking about those he is writing to, the church in Ephesus, which consisted of both Jews and gentiles. They weren't "the first to hope in Christ" because they were converted more than a decade later.

But all the "us"es and "we"s are talking about the universal church, which are "God's holy people," and those "in Ephesus" are part of it. Just because he is writing to a specific church, doesn't mean those are the only people this epistle applies to. Paul expected (as he wrote elsewhere) that the epistle would be circulated to all the churches. Therefore, Paul was meaning that the "us" and "we" in this context applied to all various groups of Christians.

If what you claim is true, then gentiles aren't saved until they become Jews. But the fact that he says "when YOU believed, YOU were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing OUR inheritance..."
means that Paul is including the "you" with "us" in the inheritance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.

IMO you need to scrap your theory and properly exegete the context.
Maybe you can explain how it's nonsense. You've done the same thing Birghtflame did. You made a claim with no evidence whatsoever. Is it true simply because you said so? Maybe you could give us some supporting evidence. Perhaps you could show us Scripture that says the Gentiles were chosen to be holy and blameless before the Lord. I can show you Scripture where the Israelites were.

12 "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.
13 "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
14 "For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you. (Deut. 18:12-14 NKJ)

`Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
6 `And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." (Exod. 19:5-6 NKJ)


Maybe you could show us where the Gentiles were predestined to adoption. The Israelites were.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom. 9:3-4 KJV)


Paul said that the adoption pertains to Israel. Are you suggesting Paul contradicted himself? How could he say the Gentiles were predestined to adoption in Ephesians 1 and say that the adoption pertains to Israel in Romans? I don't think Paul contradicted himself, I think you and Brightflame are misunderstanding Ephesians 1.

Can you show us where the Gentiles received an inheritance from God in the past? The Israelites did.

And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. (Num. 33:50-54 KJV)


Maybe you can show us where the Gentiles were accepted in "The Beloved". Do you know who the Beloved is?

26 There is not any such as the God of the beloved; he who rides upon the heaven is thy helper, and the magnificent One of the firmament.
27 And the rule of God shall protect thee, and that under the strength of the everlasting arms; and he shall cast forth the enemy from before thy face, saying, Perish.
28 And Israel shall dwell in confidence alone on the land of Jacob, with corn and wine; and the sky shall be misty with dew upon thee.
29 Blessed art thou, O Israel; who is like to thee, O people saved by the Lord? thy helper shall hold his shield over thee, and his sword is thy boast; and thine enemies shall speak falsely to thee, and thou shalt tread upon their neck. (Deut. 33:26-29 LXA)


The God of the Beloved. Who is the Beloved? Israel, O people saved by the Lord.

Can you show where any of these were given to the Gentiles? All of the verbs except one in this passage, verses 3-12 are in the past tense. So, they were complete when Paul wrote his letter.

The part you got right was that Paul included the Gentiles, however, it was after they believed. So, before they believed they were not included in those things he said in verses 3-12.
 

Butch5

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tdidymas

But, we know beyond doubt that the "you" group is the Gentiles because Paul told us so.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph. 2:11-12 KJV)

It's as clear as day. The "you" group is the Gentiles. "You being in time past Gentiles". It's crystal clear. They were called the uncircumcision by the circumcision, the Israelites. So, again, we have two groups, the Israelites and the Gentiles. Of the Gentiles, he says, they were without Christ and without God. Well, they surely weren't chosen before the foundation of the world if they were without God. He says they were aliens from Israel. Well, they surely weren't chosen before the foundation of the world if they were aliens of God's covenant people. He said they had no hope. Well, the only way they had no hope was if they had no God. Paul says they gained all of these things through faith in Christ. So, if they gained these things through faith in Christ, they didn't have them before they had faith in Christ. Therefore the things Paul spoke of in chapter 1 verses 3-12 don't apply to them.

Also, Paul made a distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision, the Israelites and the Gentiles. After saying the "you" group, the Gentiles, had been aliens from Israel, Christ and God, He says in Christ they have been brought near. So, through their faith they have been brought into the covenants of promise, into the commonwealth of Israel, and have God and Christ. Because of this they have been made fellow citizens with the saints. The contrast has been Israelites and Gentiles. The Gentiles were outside of the promises, then brought in and made fellow citizens with, who? The Israelites, the saints. Remember back in chapter 1. Paul opened his letter by addressing two groups, the saints, and the faithful in Jesus Christ. The saints are the Israelites and the faithful in Jesus Christ are the Gentiles.

There's more I could go into to show clearly that verses 3-12 apply to Israel. But, this post is getting long and I suspect it won't matter to you anyway. But for those who may read this, they can evaluate the information themselves.
 

tdidymas

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Maybe you can explain how it's nonsense. You've done the same thing Birghtflame did. You made a claim with no evidence whatsoever. Is it true simply because you said so? Maybe you could give us some supporting evidence. Perhaps you could show us Scripture that says the Gentiles were chosen to be holy and blameless before the Lord. I can show you Scripture where the Israelites were.

12 "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.
13 "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
14 "For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you. (Deut. 18:12-14 NKJ)

`Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
6 `And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." (Exod. 19:5-6 NKJ)

Maybe you could show us where the Gentiles were predestined to adoption. The Israelites were.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom. 9:3-4 KJV)

Paul said that the adoption pertains to Israel. Are you suggesting Paul contradicted himself? How could he say the Gentiles were predestined to adoption in Ephesians 1 and say that the adoption pertains to Israel in Romans? I don't think Paul contradicted himself, I think you and Brightflame are misunderstanding Ephesians 1.

Can you show us where the Gentiles received an inheritance from God in the past? The Israelites did.

And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. (Num. 33:50-54 KJV)

Maybe you can show us where the Gentiles were accepted in "The Beloved". Do you know who the Beloved is?

26 There is not any such as the God of the beloved; he who rides upon the heaven is thy helper, and the magnificent One of the firmament.
27 And the rule of God shall protect thee, and that under the strength of the everlasting arms; and he shall cast forth the enemy from before thy face, saying, Perish.
28 And Israel shall dwell in confidence alone on the land of Jacob, with corn and wine; and the sky shall be misty with dew upon thee.
29 Blessed art thou, O Israel; who is like to thee, O people saved by the Lord? thy helper shall hold his shield over thee, and his sword is thy boast; and thine enemies shall speak falsely to thee, and thou shalt tread upon their neck. (Deut. 33:26-29 LXA)

The God of the Beloved. Who is the Beloved? Israel, O people saved by the Lord.

Can you show where any of these were given to the Gentiles? All of the verbs except one in this passage, verses 3-12 are in the past tense. So, they were complete when Paul wrote his letter.

The part you got right was that Paul included the Gentiles, however, it was after they believed. So, before they believed they were not included in those things he said in verses 3-12.
Can you show that gentiles are excluded from the New Covenant that Heb. 8 speaks of? But Paul wrote in Rom. 11 that the gentile believers are grafted in to the cultivated olive tree, and therefore the covenant applies to them also.

But all of the OT scriptures you quoted pertain to the Sinaitic covenant, which is a covenant with fleshly Israel (Heb. 9:13), and contrast the nation Israel with all other nations (gentiles) who are idolaters and are excluded from that covenant. The same with Rom. 9:3-4, since Paul is talking about his fleshly brothers, that is, the nation Israel.

But when Paul talks about the spiritual relationship between the believer and God (such as Rom. 11:17-24), the gentiles are included. It's the same idea as Eph. 1:6 when he says "he hath made us accepted in the beloved," he is saying that the beloved are believers, and the "us" refers to himself and all believers, including gentiles. This "us" is all-inclusive of all believers.

Nowhere does Paul exclude gentile believers from the grace of God, in which he says we are saved, accepted, ingrafted, heirs, and all other benefits of salvation resulting from that grace. He says in Eph. 2:16 that Jews and gentiles have become ONE BODY in Christ. In Gal. 4:21-31 he says the same thing by including the gentile Galatians in the freedom of the children of promise. And those same gentile Galatians he warned not to submit themselves to the covenant that requires circumcision.

It appears to me that you are conflating the covenants and confusing a fleshly national relationship with a spiritual one.
 

tdidymas

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tdidymas

But, we know beyond doubt that the "you" group is the Gentiles because Paul told us so.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph. 2:11-12 KJV)

It's as clear as day. The "you" group is the Gentiles. "You being in time past Gentiles". It's crystal clear. They were called the uncircumcision by the circumcision, the Israelites. So, again, we have two groups, the Israelites and the Gentiles. Of the Gentiles, he says, they were without Christ and without God. Well, they surely weren't chosen before the foundation of the world if they were without God. He says they were aliens from Israel. Well, they surely weren't chosen before the foundation of the world if they were aliens of God's covenant people. He said they had no hope. Well, the only way they had no hope was if they had no God. Paul says they gained all of these things through faith in Christ. So, if they gained these things through faith in Christ, they didn't have them before they had faith in Christ. Therefore the things Paul spoke of in chapter 1 verses 3-12 don't apply to them.

Also, Paul made a distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision, the Israelites and the Gentiles. After saying the "you" group, the Gentiles, had been aliens from Israel, Christ and God, He says in Christ they have been brought near. So, through their faith they have been brought into the covenants of promise, into the commonwealth of Israel, and have God and Christ. Because of this they have been made fellow citizens with the saints. The contrast has been Israelites and Gentiles. The Gentiles were outside of the promises, then brought in and made fellow citizens with, who? The Israelites, the saints. Remember back in chapter 1. Paul opened his letter by addressing two groups, the saints, and the faithful in Jesus Christ. The saints are the Israelites and the faithful in Jesus Christ are the Gentiles.

There's more I could go into to show clearly that verses 3-12 apply to Israel. But, this post is getting long and I suspect it won't matter to you anyway. But for those who may read this, they can evaluate the information themselves.
Yet in Eph. 2:16 he says that the two groups have become one body in Christ.
2:18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." "We" means Jews and gentiles.
2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God" - so that the gentile "you" is included in the "us" and "we" in that context.

So then, it is clear that gentiles are included in the adoption, contrary to your idea. In the context of Eph. 1:1-6 the "us" refers to the whole body of believers, that is, the universal church, which includes both Jews and gentiles. So then your idea of imposing "Jews only" onto the "us" in Eph. 1 is complete nonsense. It imposes the idea that gentiles have to become Jews in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven, if one is to be consistent with what you're saying, and that would be heresy and pharisaical. I cannot subscribe to such nonsense.
 

tdidymas

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What about those pretending to be Blessed through election , how do we know who they are ?
The doctrine of election is not for judging others, in the same way that we are to leave tares alone in the field and let the harvest (the judgment of Christ) take care of them. The doctrine of election is for encouragement of the church, that is, edification of the true believers. As the "wheat" grows, it will produce results. Therefore, it is not for us to judge who are pretenders, unless their sins prove they are pretenders, and then there is ecclesiastical discipline to do as Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5 and Jesus taught in Mat. 18. How do you know who is a true believer? "By their deeds you shall know them" said Jesus. Yet we treat everyone who claims Christ as a brother in Christ as the apostles taught us. "God knows those who are His" wrote Paul.
 
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The doctrine of election is not for judging others, in the same way that we are to leave tares alone in the field and let the harvest (the judgment of Christ) take care of them. The doctrine of election is for encouragement of the church, that is, edification of the true believers. As the "wheat" grows, it will produce results. Therefore, it is not for us to judge who are pretenders, unless their sins prove they are pretenders, and then there is ecclesiastical discipline to do as Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5 and Jesus taught in Mat. 18. How do you know who is a true believer? "By their deeds you shall know them" said Jesus. Yet we treat everyone who claims Christ as a brother in Christ as the apostles taught us. "God knows those who are His" wrote Paul.
You believe a pretender can only pretend to be elect, but cannot pretend to be edified as well ?
 

Butch5

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Can you show that gentiles are excluded from the New Covenant that Heb. 8 speaks of? But Paul wrote in Rom. 11 that the gentile believers are grafted in to the cultivated olive tree, and therefore the covenant applies to them also.

But all of the OT scriptures you quoted pertain to the Sinaitic covenant, which is a covenant with fleshly Israel (Heb. 9:13), and contrast the nation Israel with all other nations (gentiles) who are idolaters and are excluded from that covenant. The same with Rom. 9:3-4, since Paul is talking about his fleshly brothers, that is, the nation Israel.

But when Paul talks about the spiritual relationship between the believer and God (such as Rom. 11:17-24), the gentiles are included. It's the same idea as Eph. 1:6 when he says "he hath made us accepted in the beloved," he is saying that the beloved are believers, and the "us" refers to himself and all believers, including gentiles. This "us" is all-inclusive of all believers.

Nowhere does Paul exclude gentile believers from the grace of God, in which he says we are saved, accepted, ingrafted, heirs, and all other benefits of salvation resulting from that grace. He says in Eph. 2:16 that Jews and gentiles have become ONE BODY in Christ. In Gal. 4:21-31 he says the same thing by including the gentile Galatians in the freedom of the children of promise. And those same gentile Galatians he warned not to submit themselves to the covenant that requires circumcision.

It appears to me that you are conflating the covenants and confusing a fleshly national relationship with a spiritual one.
You're creating a straw man. I said the part you got right was that Paul included the Gentiles. However, that was "AFTER" they believed. If they received it "AFTER" they believed then they weren't chosen before the foundation of the world.

Regarding the passages I quoted they are pertinent. Salvation comes through the Jews. So, those promises made to them are the same promises that the Gentiles partake of, "AFTER" they believe. My argument is that Eph 1 verses 3-12 are speaking of the Jews or Israelites. I've proven that beyond any doubt. You haven't shown where any of those promises or events were promised to Gentiles. They weren't, they pertain to Israel.
 

Butch5

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Yet in Eph. 2:16 he says that the two groups have become one body in Christ.
2:18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." "We" means Jews and gentiles.
2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God" - so that the gentile "you" is included in the "us" and "we" in that context.

So then, it is clear that gentiles are included in the adoption, contrary to your idea. In the context of Eph. 1:1-6 the "us" refers to the whole body of believers, that is, the universal church, which includes both Jews and gentiles. So then your idea of imposing "Jews only" onto the "us" in Eph. 1 is complete nonsense. It imposes the idea that gentiles have to become Jews in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven, if one is to be consistent with what you're saying, and that would be heresy and pharisaical. I cannot subscribe to such nonsense.
Again, you're creating a straw man. I acknowledged that the Gentiles are included. I pointed out that they were brought near in Christ and are now fellow citizens with the saint. However, all of that happens "AFTER" they believe. Thus they were not predestined to adoption. The Jews or Israelites were predestined to adoption. As I pointed out Paul said the adoption pertains to Israel. The Gentiles partake of the adoption by partaking of Israel. In Romans 11 Paul tells the Gentiles that they are grafted into the olive tree. They are grafted into Israel. As such they now can partake of the promises made to Israel.

As I pointed out the things mentioned in Eph 1:3-12 are past tense with the exception of one verb. As such they were all completed actions when Paul wrote. They all took place before the Gospel went to the Gentiles, thus they don't speak of the Gentiles. The Gentiles didn't receive an inheritance from God, Israel did. The Gentiles hadn't, in the past, been made acceptable in the Beloved. God hadn't, in the past, abounded toward the Gentiles in all prudence and wisdom. God hadn't, in the past, chosen the Gentiles to be holy and blameless. Those things pertain to Israel, not the Gentiles.
 

Fastfredy0

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Let's see how your theory works. Substitute "gentiles" for "you" and "Jews" for "us":

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people (Jews) in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to the gentiles from God the Jews' Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of the Jews' Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed the Jews in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose the Jews in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined the Jews for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given the Jews [yahda, yahda]
LOL, good one.
 

tdidymas

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You're creating a straw man. I said the part you got right was that Paul included the Gentiles. However, that was "AFTER" they believed. If they received it "AFTER" they believed then they weren't chosen before the foundation of the world.

Regarding the passages I quoted they are pertinent. Salvation comes through the Jews. So, those promises made to them are the same promises that the Gentiles partake of, "AFTER" they believe. My argument is that Eph 1 verses 3-12 are speaking of the Jews or Israelites. I've proven that beyond any doubt. You haven't shown where any of those promises or events were promised to Gentiles. They weren't, they pertain to Israel.
No, you haven't, and your argument is not convincing. I showed that to claim "you" means gentiles and "us" means Jews makes the whole conversation of Eph. 1 inconsistent. It also breeds ethnic prejudice that ch. 2 contradicts. You are convoluting the covenants which are different by nature.
 

Butch5

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No, you haven't, and your argument is not convincing. I showed that to claim "you" means gentiles and "us" means Jews makes the whole conversation of Eph. 1 inconsistent. It also breeds ethnic prejudice that ch. 2 contradicts. You are convoluting the covenants which are different by nature.
You haven't shown anything. You simply replaced we and you with Jew and Gentile and then made an unsubstantiated claim that it was non sense. You never made any attempt to show how it was non sense. You also, after several posts, have not made any attempt to show where the Gentiels received those things in verses 3-12 in the past. I suspect that's because you know they didnt receive those things in the past. That you've presented no evidence for your claim speaks volumes about its validity.

As I've shown, Paulbstates plainly who the "you" group is. It appears you reject Paul's words.
 

tdidymas

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Again, you're creating a straw man. I acknowledged that the Gentiles are included. I pointed out that they were brought near in Christ and are now fellow citizens with the saint. However, all of that happens "AFTER" they believe. Thus they were not predestined to adoption. The Jews or Israelites were predestined to adoption. As I pointed out Paul said the adoption pertains to Israel. The Gentiles partake of the adoption by partaking of Israel. In Romans 11 Paul tells the Gentiles that they are grafted into the olive tree. They are grafted into Israel. As such they now can partake of the promises made to Israel.

As I pointed out the things mentioned in Eph 1:3-12 are past tense with the exception of one verb. As such they were all completed actions when Paul wrote. They all took place before the Gospel went to the Gentiles, thus they don't speak of the Gentiles. The Gentiles didn't receive an inheritance from God, Israel did. The Gentiles hadn't, in the past, been made acceptable in the Beloved. God hadn't, in the past, abounded toward the Gentiles in all prudence and wisdom. God hadn't, in the past, chosen the Gentiles to be holy and blameless. Those things pertain to Israel, not the Gentiles.
You're misapplying the term "predestined" and trying to make it into "called" or "offered." The term "predestined" means that God chose individuals among both Jews and gentiles to become His spiritual sons. It doesn't mean He chose people groups to potentially become His sons, if they so choose. That definition is not biblical.

In Eph. 1:3-12 Paul is speaking generally of those who have faith in Christ. So the past tense simply means that God did those things in Christ for those who would believe in Him, just as Jesus prayed in John 17. It applies to all believers, past, present, and future.

This is why "predestined to adoption as sons" applies to all believers, regardless of ethnicity. God is not a respecter of persons, which means He saves and adopts individuals regardless of their ethnicity.
 

tdidymas

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You haven't shown anything. You simply replaced we and you with Jew and Gentile and then made an unsubstantiated claim that it was non sense. You never made any attempt to show how it was non sense. You also, after several posts, have not made any attempt to show where the Gentiels received those things in verses 3-12 in the past. I suspect that's because you know they didnt receive those things in the past. That you've presented no evidence for your claim speaks volumes about its validity.

As I've shown, Paulbstates plainly who the "you" group is. It appears you reject Paul's words.
Yes I did show how it was nonsense. In v. 13-14, Paul states that the Ephesian church was sealed with the Holy Spirit, and then said "who is a guarantee of OUR inheritance" - so Paul is including the Ephesians with the Jews in the inheritance and adoption. And in Ch. 2 he clarifies that fact.

So if you missed that, then you're just not reading it.
 

Butch5

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You're misapplying the term "predestined" and trying to make it into "called" or "offered." The term "predestined" means that God chose individuals among both Jews and gentiles to become His spiritual sons. It doesn't mean He chose people groups to potentially become His sons, if they so choose. That definition is not biblical.

In Eph. 1:3-12 Paul is speaking generally of those who have faith in Christ. So the past tense simply means that God did those things in Christ for those who would believe in Him, just as Jesus prayed in John 17. It applies to all believers, past, present, and future.

This is why "predestined to adoption as sons" applies to all believers, regardless of ethnicity. God is not a respecter of persons, which means He saves and adopts individuals regardless of their ethnicity.
No, predestined simply means predetermined. All the rest you said is your theology. You can keep trying to twist verses 3-12 but that won't change the fact that they refer to Israel.
 

Fastfredy0

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predestined simply means predetermined.
The term "predestined" means that God chose individuals among both Jews and gentiles to become His spiritual sons.
Sounds like you both know what PREDESTINED means

Predestination – God’s plan and purpose for those He “elects” or does not “elect” (reprobation); both angels and man. The degree of limitation of the term differs with the theologians. Predestination may be applied to the purposes of God regarding all his moral creatures, both men and angels. Sometimes it is restricted to man, and includes both election and reprobation. Or it may be used in the most restrictive sense of applying only to the elect, and not referring to the reprobate. The Westminster Standards use it to refer to just the elect of both men and angels.
 
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