Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[dadof10]

All humans are born of water....if you are not clear on this, check with your wife or mother.

The sentence makes no sense interpreting the word "water" as "natural birth". If "all humans" go through being born of water, Jesus is in effect saying that we must be born to be saved. Also, Jesus makes it perfectly clear what he means by "water" in Chapter 3 because right after His discourse to Nicodemus, He and His disciples go out and baptize (v. 22, "After this...")

 

[Webb]

The water of Jn.3 means the natural birth?? That's what Nicodemus thought but he was wrong wasn't he?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Baptismal Regeneration

"So born of water mean water baptism."

Absolutely NOT!!!!! the passage is all about contrasting "Natural Birth" with Spiritual birth, and "Baptism" isn't anywhere in sight (unless you happen to belong to a denominational paradigm that teaches "Baptismal regeneration" - and then you see "Baptism" everywhere).

Born of water = "Natural birth"
Born of the Spirit = "Spiritual birth"

"How about born of Spirit?"

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

True - but heading for trouble:

"The only evidence that someone has received Holy Spirit is when he can speak in tounge."

This is the 'ol "Oneness Pentecostal" Heresy that you've gotta choke out an "Acceptable tongue" in order to join their little exclusive club. Speaking in tongues has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with salvation, or the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

"Tongues" (and a bunch or other "empowerments" - "Tools", as it were) are the result of the ENDUEMENT OF POWER (in Jesus' words) - i.e. the Holy Spirit ON the Christian believer. We refer to that as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit", and at the present time a manifestation of "Tongues" typically does occur.

But it's NOT the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit IN the believer) which occurs instantly when a person puts his FAITH in the sacrifice of Jesus for his SIN and enters into life. And the REAL sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit will bear witness with YOUR spirit that you're a "Child of God".

"John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

True statement (naturally, since it's in the Bible).

The "TRUE JESUS CHURCH" appears to be just another "Sabbatarian splinter group". They appear to be a form of "Oneness" believers, but their statement on the website just "dances around" the issue.

 

[zeke]

Re: Baptismal Regeneration

"So born of water mean water baptism."

Absolutely NOT!!!!! the passage is all about contrasting "Natural Birth" with Spiritual birth, and "Baptism" isn't anywhere in sight (unless you happen to belong to a denominational paradigm that teaches "Baptismal regeneration" - and then you see "Baptism" everywhere).

The 'water' of the new birth is a reference to the ordinance of baptism - it always has been and you obviously do not understand the term 'baptismal regeneration' that you so carelessly toss around.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
(Rom 6:3-6)

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot​

 

[poppers]

Water is associated with physical birth in an obvious way (in fact “born of water†is a Hebrew idiom for birth). When the fetus is ready to emerge from the womb the membrane that surrounds the fetus in the uterus usually ruptures, releasing amniotic fluid. This amniotic fluid is essentially water. Anyone remotely familiar with the birth of a baby understands that the breaking of the water warns of the imminent birth of a baby. And is closely identified with physical birth. Therefore “born of water†identifies physical birth; “born of the Spirit†identifies spiritual birth.
“Born of the water†in verse 5 implies physical birth, not water baptism. Water baptism is not implicated in John chapter 3, only physical birth, which is essential to the context. Moreover, water baptism is never a condition for entrance into “the kingdom of Godâ€. Spirit baptism (1Cor. 12:13), which accrues at the moment of faith Jesus Christ, is a prerequisite and integral part of being “born of the Spiritâ€, not “born of waterâ€. (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs only at the moment of salvation in the Church Age. The Holy Spirit enters each believer into union with Christ as a permanent identification with and entrance into the royal family of God.)

(1Co 12:13) For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Water baptism does not save us, water baptism does not cleanse us from sin. Water baptism is a ritual that points to the saving work of Christ on the cross and if you will read the rest of the New Testament starting from the book of acts on through to revelation you'll find water baptism is less and less and less hardly mentioned if it was supposed to cleanse us from sin it would be mentioned over and over. We enter into the plan of God in only one way and one way only and it is not without any works least any man should boast. And that is through faith in Jesus Christ, believing in Jesus Christ

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[zeke]

Water is associated with physical birth in an obvious way (in fact “born of water†is a Hebrew idiom for birth). When the fetus is ready to emerge from the womb the membrane that surrounds the fetus in the uterus usually ruptures, releasing amniotic fluid. This amniotic fluid is essentially water.

You are quite mistaken - Jesus was baptized by the Baptizer in old fashioned water (H2O). He was not baptized in water mixed with fetal constituents and electrolytes. Does your Bible read..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. The water of the new birth is and has always been the water of baptism..."born of water and the Spirit."

John 3:5. That water points definitely to the rite of baptism, and that with a twofold reference - to the past and to the future. Water naturally suggested to Nicodemus the baptism of John, which was then awakening such profound and general interest; and, with this, the symbolical purifications of the Jews, and the Old Testament use of washing as the figure of purifying from sin (Psa_2:2, Psa_2:7; Eze_36:25; Zec_13:1). Jesus' words opened to Nicodemus a new and more spiritual significance in both the ceremonial purifications and the baptism of John which the Pharisees had rejected (Luk_7:30). John's rite had a real and legitimate relation to the kingdom of God which Nicodemus must accept. ~ Vincent's Word Studies​

 

[dadof10]

Born of water = "Natural birth"

Why?


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[dadof10]

Water is associated with physical birth in an obvious way (in fact “born of water” is a Hebrew idiom for birth).

An idiom is symbolic. Are you sure "born of water" is a Hebrew idiom? If so, can you give me a source? Thanks.

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[Webers_Home]

.
At Mtt 10:42, water represents a natural beverage.

At John 4:10-14, water represents a supernatural beverage.

At John 7:37-39, water represents God's Spirit.

At Eph 5:26, water represents the word of God.

At Rev 21:6, Rev 22:1, and Rev 22:17, water again represents a supernatural beverage.

Of all the water mentioned above; which would you rather have? Well the answer to that for me is a no-brainer. I'd rather have the supernatural beverage, and I'd rather have God's Spirit, and I'd rather have the word of God than have a ritual dunking in liquid coming out of a spigot or running in a creek.

Cliff
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[zeke]

.
At Mtt 10:42, water represents a natural beverage.

At John 4:10-14, water represents a supernatural beverage.

At John 7:37-39, water represents God's Spirit.

At Eph 5:26, water represents the word of God.

At Rev 21:6, Rev 22:1, and Rev 22:17, water again represents a supernatural beverage.

Of all the water mentioned above; which would you rather have? Well the answer to that for me is a no-brainer. I'd rather have the supernatual beverage, and I'd rather have God's Spirit, and I'd rather have the word of God than have a ritual dunking in liquid coming out of a spigot or running in a creek.

Cliff
/

What are your thoughts on obeying the Lord in His command to be baptized in water? Have you obeyed that command?

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...†(Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary​

 

[Webb]

Webber_Home left out this one: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized----." Acts 10:47.

webb

 

[Webers_Home]

.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)

The koiné Greek word for "baptized" means to be either overwhelmed (as by a flood) and/or to be totally immersed (as in a vat of dye). The word is very ambiguous and used in a variety of applications.

At Mtt 3:6 it indicates ritual repentance.

At Mtt 3:11 it indicates both God's Spirit and fire.

At Mtt 20:22-23 it indicates undergoing an experience.

At Mtt 28:19 it indicates ritual initiation.

At 1Cor 10:2 it indicates sealing; viz: branding, identification, and/or marking.

At Rom 6:3, 1Cor 12:13, and Gal 3:27 it indicates transferring from Adam's body to Christ's body.

Precisely which of those applications is meant by Mrk 16:16 I honestly cannot say with enough certainty to bet my life on it.

However, I will say this: when somebody believes the correct gospel message they undergo an automatic baptism. What I'm saying is: saving baptism is God's prerogative; not the believer's. In other words: when I believed the gospel, God's Spirit immediately transferred me from Adam's body into Christ's body. No man can perform that kind of baptism because it's an act of God rather than the act of a minister; and I've a strong hunch that's the kind of baptism spoken of at Mrk 16:16 because without the act of God, nobody will make it to safety when they cross to the other side.

I listed seven baptisms above. Curiously, the Bible says there's really only one. (Eph 4:5)

Have you obeyed that command?

Mrk 16:16 isn't a command; it's a statement of fact. I'm going to revise the passage in order to illustrate what I mean.

He that believeth and gets baptized shall be saved

No, it doesn't say "gets" baptized, it says "is" baptized; like this: He who steps in front of a train and is smashed flat will be killed.

Cliff
/

 

[zeke]

I listed seven baptisms above. Curiously, the Bible says there's really only one. (Eph 4:5)

Yes and that 'one baptism' is the one instutited and command by the Lord - baptism in water...in name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...born of water and the Spirit...

Eph 4:5. One baptism. One initiatory rite admitting into the visible Church baptism in name of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, symbolic of the washing of regeneration, the one way of entering the Church invisible. ~ The Pulpit Commentary​

Mrk 16:16 isn't a command; it's a statement of fact.

Baptism was instituted and commanded by the Lord - ...go...teach ...baptize...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you...

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(Mat 28:19-20 NKJV)​

Have you been baptized in water in obedience to the Lord's command?

 

[Ace1234]

Most accept this to be the water natural child birth, as it comes first. Notice the order here, born of water and spirit.. This can't be baptism, baptism doesn't come before the spiritual rebirth.

If we really needed a legalistic activity to assure our salvation how sad would that be, we are born again by faith, not by dunking our heads in water, baptism is a sign of that faith.

 

[Elijah674]

Most accept this to be the water natural child birth, as it comes first. Notice the order here, born of water and spirit.. This can't be baptism, baptism doesn't come before the spiritual rebirth.

If we really needed a legalistic activity to assure our salvation how sad would that be, we are born again by faith, not by dunking our heads in water, baptism is a sign of that faith.

Where does Inspiration say that water (baptism) come first!?? But it does DOCUMENT OBEDIENCE befor one is Born Again in Acts 5:32. (total surrender) And what OBEDIENCE NOW FOLLOWS??
See Acts 9:6 + verse 18.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

that 'one baptism' is the one instutited and command by the Lord - baptism in water

I'm not convinced that Eph 4:5 refers to ritual baptism.

born of water and the Spirit

The Lord identified the water he spoke of at John 3:5 as living water; which is a water intended for drinking rather than for baptizing.

†. John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

†. John 4:13-14 . . Jesus answered: Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

†. Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say "Come!" And let him who hears say "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Baptism was instituted and commanded by the Lord - ...go...teach ...baptize...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you

The command to teach and ritual baptize was given to the Lord's ministers rather than to believers. In point of fact, though Paul was a minister, the Lord didn't commission him to ritual baptize (1Cor 1:17). Were ritual baptism essential to one's safety, as you allege, then the Lord would most certainly have included it in Paul's ministry.

Have you been baptized in water in obedience to the Lord's command?

That's not the question you should be concerned about. Your concern should be: has Zeke imbibed the living water about which the Lord spoke?

FAQ: how is the living water channeled to people?

Answer: via God's Spirit.

†. John 7:37-39 . . On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice: If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said: streams of living water will flow from within him. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Cliff
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Webber_Home left out this one: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized----." Acts 10:47.

My name is spelled with one b not two; and it's also plural instead of singular. Kindly note the difference.

But anyway, thanks for bringing up that passage because it illustrates that ritual baptism isn't nearly as important as some people think. The people in Cornelius' home who heard and believed the gospel were given God's Spirit prior to the ritual. In point of fact, the ritual was superfluous because when people receive God's Spirit, they are immediately sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13)

The Spirit is given to people as an earnest. (Eph 1:14)

The koiné Greek word translated "earnest" is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which is a pledge; viz: part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest. As a home owner, I know exactly what arrabon means and just how legally it obligates God to protect me from His own wrath.

As anybody who's ever bought property knows, earnest money isn't a down payment; no, far from it. Although it may be applied towards the purchase price of property, earnest money itself serves a specific purpose of its own in the real estate business. In some states, this is also called "good faith" money.

For those of you who have yet to buy a home of your own, earnest money works like this. When the contract, and all other necessary documents are submitted to Escrow, the buyer is required to also submit a token amount of the purchase price. It's usually a relatively small number of dollars compared to the full price of the property. I think ours was just $1,000 back in 1988 on a $74,000 home. When the buyer follows through on their consent to purchase the property, the good faith money (minus some Escrow fees of course) goes towards the purchase . However, if the buyer decides to renege, then they forfeit the good faith money. No doubt that's done to discourage half-hearted buyers from screwing around with other people's time and money.

So then, since God's Spirit itself is the arrabon in Eph 1:13-14; then, according to the principles underlying good faith deposits, should God renege on His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then God has to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep it, regardless of their eternal destiny.

Cliff
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[Webb]

Yes mame I'll remember to spell your name right from now on, sorry about that.

Now, would any of you care to discuss baptism on the one-on-one??

 

[dadof10]

Most accept this to be the water natural child birth, as it comes first. Notice the order here, born of water and spirit.. This can't be baptism, baptism doesn't come before the spiritual rebirth.

It's "born of water AND spirit" not "born of water THEN spirit". I don't low how you see any chronology in this simple, straightforward sentence.



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[dadof10]

If we really needed a legalistic activity to assure our salvation how sad would that be, we are born again by faith, not by dunking our heads in water, baptism is a sign of that faith.

Please point to the verses that call water baptism "a sign of faith". If you can't, you need to rethink what baptism is.


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