Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[Webb]

Webers_Home-- You say Mk.16:16 is not a command. Vs. 16 goes with vs. 15. Now read them together: "And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Thats what is called a direct command!

 

[Webers_Home]

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You say Mk.16:16 is not a command. Vs. 16 goes with vs. 15. Now read them together: "And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Thats what is called a direct command!

Maybe verse 16 together with verse 15 is a direct command to your way of thinking; but not to my mine.

According to Acts 10:34-48 and 1Cor 1:17, ritual baptism is superfluous; and in point of fact, I'd even go so far as to say it's entirely optional.

Cliff
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[zeke]

The command to teach and ritual baptize was given to the Lord's ministers rather than to believers. In point of fact, though Paul was a minister, the Lord didn't commission him to ritual baptize (1Cor 1:17). Were ritual baptism essential to one's safety, as you allege, then the Lord would most certainly have included it in Paul's ministry.

You appear a bit confused - "the Lord's ministers" were believers and baptism in water was commanded to all who would be disciples of Jesus Christ. The NT does not know of an unbaptized Christian. Why - because all believers were baptized immediately upon their confession that Jesus was the Christ.

Paul's ministry always included baptism in water (a burial) and Paul did baptize some and those who assisted him baptized all of the others.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Rom 6:3-4)​

Paul's words are hard to miss - one is not "in Christ" until one is baptized in water - "baptized into Christ". Paul himself submitted to baptism to have his sins "washed away" by the blood of Christ at the point of baptism...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16)​

You may want to re-think the nature of baptism as presented in Holy Writ.

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary​

 

[Webers_Home]

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You appear a bit confused

Just because people disagree with your interpretation doesn't eo ipso indicate they are confused. I would advise you to be a little more circumspect with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat them.

†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Paul's words are hard to miss

Paul's words may be hard to miss; but they are not all that hard to misinterpret.

†. 2Pet 3:16 . . Paul letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Act 22:16)

If Ananias truly believed that a ritual could wash away one's sins, then he was mistaken; but he didn't, and neither did Paul.

Unbeknownst to a pretty good number of Bible students is that the New Testament's koiné Greek manuscripts have no punctuation; so that the punctuation that editors have inserted in English translations is entirely arbitrary. If we translate Acts 22:16 without the second comma; it looks like this:

Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.

In other words; it wasn't the ritual that resulted in the washing away of Paul's sins; it was the prayer.

†. Rom 10:9-10 . . If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be spared .For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

†. 1John 1:9 . . If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

one is not "in Christ" until one is baptized in water

The way I see it; one is not in Christ till they're baptized by God's Spirit.

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The people in Cornelius' home were given the Spirit prior to ritual baptism; not afterwards: and in point of fact, even before they opened their mouths to utter a single word of prayer; which is very interesting because though Paul is the one who penned Rom 10:9-10, he's also the one who penned Eph 1:13-14 where he stated that at the moment of believing the gospel, people are sealed for redemption with God's Spirit, who is also the good faith deposit guaranteeing God's intentions to protect them from His own wrath.

The way I see it; putting the emphasis on ritual baptism is really no different than putting the emphasis on ritual circumcision.

†. Acts 15:1 . . And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren: Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

Jews flaunt their ritual circumcision the very same way some Christians flaunt their ritual baptism.

†. Gal 6:13 . .They want you to be circumcised that they may take pride in your flesh.

You may want to re-think the nature of baptism as presented in Holy Writ.

What an interesting coincidence. I was just feeling the very same way about you.

Zeke, instead of fixating on ritual baptism, maybe you should instead focus your attention upon finding a way to imbibe the living water about which the Lord spoke at John 4:10, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39, and Rev 22:17.

Cliff
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[Webb]

Cliff, you continually use the phrase "ritiual baptism", where in the world is that found in the Bible?

 

[Webers_Home]

*****

 

[Webers_Home]

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you continually use the phrase "ritiual baptism", where in the world is that found in the Bible?

Rituals can be defined as rites and/or ceremonies performed by men, as opposed to supernatural acts of God.

John's baptism of Jesus, Philip's baptism of Candace's treasurer, Peter's baptism of Cornelius' household, and Paul's baptism of Stephanas are examples of ritual baptism as opposed to supernatural baptism.


Cliff
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[farouk]

Rather than trying to teach baptismal regeneration in water, one should instead remember that Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word', referring to the cleansing effect of the Word of God.

Water baptism, like the Lord's Supper, is a symbol.

 

[Webb]

Cliff---You are inserting something into the scripture which is not there. Your definition is lacking.

 

[Webers_Home]

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You are inserting something into the scripture which is not there.

It's there all right; you just have to know what to look for.

Your definition is lacking.

Maybe it's lacking to you; but not to me.

Cliff
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[farouk]

But baptismal regeneration turns salvation by grace (Ephesians 2.8,9) into salvation by ritual.

 

[dadof10]

Water baptism, like the Lord's Supper, is a symbol.

Can you please provide the chapter and verse that teaches water baptism is symbolic.


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[dadof10]

But baptismal regeneration turns salvation by grace (Ephesians 2.8,9) into salvation by ritual.

No. It turns "works salvation" (the necessity of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior) into salvation by Grace alone. The infant being baptized does NOTHING to merit salvation, whereas the unbaptized adult MUST DO SOMETHING to merit salvation

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[Webb]

And Weber since you claim to see "ritual" so plainly will you please point out the scripture or scriptures where it is so plainly applied to baptism? I couldn't find it.

 

[zeke]

Rather than trying to teach baptismal regeneration in water, one should instead remember that Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word', referring to the cleansing effect of the Word of God.

But Ephesians 5.26 is a reference to baptism in water.

Ephesians 5.26.
With the washing of water - Baptism, accompanied by the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit.
By the word - The doctrine of Christ crucified, through which baptism is administered, sin canceled, and the soul purified from all unrighteousness; the death of Christ giving efficacy to all. ~ Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible​

Did Jesus teach 'baptismal regeneration' when He said the one who believes must also be baptized and then comes salvation.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:16)​

The promise of salvation is given to the one who believes and is baptized. The one who disbelieves whether baptized or not baptized shall be condemned. Easy concept.

Did Jesus command all who would be His disciples to be baptized in water? Have you been baptized in water? If not, why not? If you have - why were you baptized?

 

[Webers_Home]

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since you claim to see "ritual" so plainly will you please point out the scripture or scriptures where it is so plainly applied to baptism? I couldn't find it.

I'm afraid you're in for quite a bit of disappointment if you were expecting everything in the Bible to be written and/or spoken in your own choice of words. This is a very common problem I've encountered when discussing the Bible with people on the high end of the autism spectrum. They're often well-versed in the scriptures but are unable to reason from the scriptures. In other words: unless something is spelled out in precise black and white; and in their own choice of words; they just can't get it.

Cliff
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[zeke]

.
I'm afraid you're in for quite a bit of disappointment if you were expecting everything in the Bible to be written and/or spoken in your own choice of words. This is a very common problem I've encountered when discussing the Bible with people on the high end of the autism spectrum. They're often well-versed in the scriptures but are unable to reason from the scriptures. In other words: unless something is spelled out in precise black and white; and in their own choice of words; they just can't get it.

Cliff
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The odd thing is when baptism is spelled out to you in precise black and white via Holy Writ you can't quite digest it. Are ye ignorant...

"Are ye ignorant that we were baptized into his death? To those who are not ignorant the sign of baptism speaks of death. To be baptized means to be immersed, to be sunk in a foreign element, to be covered by a tide of purification. The man who emerges from the water is not the same man who entered it. One man dies and another is born." ~ Karl Barth, "Commentary on Romans"

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Rom 6:2-4)​

Have you been "baptized into Christ" - a burial in water? Were you "baptized into His death"? Have you been "raised up" out of the water to "walk in newness of life"? Have you been born of water and the Spirit?

 

[Webers_Home]

+.

The odd thing is when baptism is spelled out to you in precise black and white via Holy Writ you can't quite digest it.

I'm sorry but I am simply unable to believe you know what you're talking about.

Are ye ignorant

Is it impossible that you are the one who is ignorant instead of me? Do you honestly expect me to believe that your interpretations of Paul's writings are infallible?

†. 2Pet 3:16 . . Paul letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul himself revealed at Eph 4:11-14 that there are people out and about very skilled at making untruth sound believable.

The way I see it; you have grossly erred by recklessly assuming that Rom 6:3-11 is talking about ritual baptism into Christ when in reality Paul is talking about Spirit baptism into Christ.

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The way I see it, Spirit baptism is the one baptism about which Paul spoke in his writings at Eph 4:5.

I also believe you have grossly erred by recklessly assuming that the water the Lord spoke of at John 3:5 is ritual baptism when in reality is it actually the living water about which he spoke at John 4:10, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39, and Rev 22:17.

Note : human nature is prone to putting its trust in rituals because a ritual is something people can see and/or get a handle on; whereas the Spirit is something they cannot see and/or get a handle on. In other words; there are actually people passing themselves off as the Lord's followers who have a great deal of difficulty believing in some of the supernatural aspects Christianity. Spirit baptism is one of those aspects. It's a supernatural event that can't be observed by any of the five senses of touch, taste, sight, hearing, or smell; so it's no surprise to me that so many Christians have put their trust in a ritual rather than in the Spirit.

Cliff
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[Adullam]

No. It turns "works salvation" (the necessity of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior) into salvation by Grace alone. The infant being baptized does NOTHING to merit salvation, whereas the unbaptized adult MUST DO SOMETHING to merit salvation

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Why not proxy baptism or baptizing the dead?

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[zeke]

Is it impossible that you are the one who is ignorant instead of me? Do you honestly expect me to believe that your interpretations of Paul's writings are infallible?

Paul's word are inspired by God my friend and they say what they say. I note that you have not addressed Paul's words. Why? Are ye ignorant...

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Rom 6:2-4)​

You also didn't answer the questions Cliff. Why? Have you been "baptized into Christ" - a burial in water? Were you "baptized into His death"? Have you been "raised up" out of the water to "walk in newness of life"? Have you been born of water and the Spirit?

Note : human nature is prone to putting its trust in rituals because a ritual is something people can see and/or get a handle on; whereas the Spirit is something they cannot see and/or get a handle on.

What Cliff can't quite digest is that the "ritual" he tries to ridicule - the ordinance of baptism - is from God not from man. It was instituted and command to all believers by the Lord Himself and Cliff appears to have trouble even explaining if he has submitted to God's command to be immersed in water.

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
(1Sa 15:22)
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