Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[WIP]

Let's try to stay on topic please. Address disagreements with scripture and not personal opinion about other posters. Thank you.

 

[dadof10]

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Peter might have been talking about ritual baptism except for the fact that Noah didn't get wet— not one drop of the Flood's water so much as touched either him or his family.

Question : Where was Noah during the Flood?
Answer : in the ark.

Question : Where will Christ's people be during the wrath to come?
Answer : in Christ.

Question : Who sealed Noah in the ark?
Answer : God sealed him in.

Question : Who seals the Lord's people in Christ?
Answer : the Spirit seals them in.

Are you beginning to get the picture?

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body

In other words; the ark represents Christ. If you are in him you'll be spared. If you're not in him; you'll not be spared.

Here's another dry baptism.

†. 1Cor 10:2 . . And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Question : How many of Moses' people got wet in that baptism?

Answer : Not a single one. They all crossed the Red Sea dry shod; there wasn't even any mud.

Cliff
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The above is a great example of eisegesis. You believe that water baptism has no role in salvation, so 1Pt. can't possibly mean what the plain words say. You are bringing your preconceived notions into your "interpretation". Let's look at what the words actually say taking one line at a time.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."

How were the eight saved? According to Peter they were saved "through water", not by floating on top of water and NOT by the Ark.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,

What saves you? Seems pretty straight forward, baptism, which corresponds to the flood waters. You may not think Peter's analogy is perfect but this is his OBVIOUS meaning. Think about what he's saying, Cliff. The flood waters SYMBOLIZE baptism, which saves us. If we were saved by faith alone, why would he confuse his flock like this? Now, how does water baptism save us?

"not as a removal of dirt from the body"

Note another allusion to cleansing with water, as opposed to floating above it.

"but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

This is how the merits of Christ's resurrection are applied to us, through water baptism. This is all pretty straight forward and obvious if you come to Scripture looking for the truth without bias. I think I get the picture just fine, do you?

 

[dadof10]

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In order to properly understand Peter, it's necessary to return to Genesis and analyze the Flood event to which his statement refers.

The waters of the Flood carried out the wrath of God; and it's primary purpose was to do but two things: 1) kill everybody on land, and 2) float the ark.

The point to note is that Noah himself didn't step down into the waters; nor did God ask him to; viz: God instructed Noah to enter the ark rather than enter the waters. In other words: if anything; the Flood baptized the ark rather than baptizing Noah.

It's a pity that so many Christians have been persuaded to focus on the waters instead of analyzing the "like figure", in other words: by fixating on the Flood's waters they've missed the big picture; which is that the ark represents Christ and the baptism that now saves the "us" to whom Peter referred is the Spirit baptism of 1Cor 12:13 which, supernaturally, is the means by which the "us" to whom Peter referred, entered their own ark; viz: the means by which they entered Christ.

After Noah entered the ark; God closed the door behind him, and from that point on, the fate of everybody left on land was sealed. In the same vein: everybody who fails to get baptized into Christ via God's Spirit will fail to survive the wrath to come.

†. Rev 3:7 . .These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Cliff
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See previous post r.e. eisegesis. Let me give you an analogy of my own.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

In order to properly analyze V.3:16, we must study what was meant by Moses lifting up the serpent. The Jews grumbled against God (sinned), so God sent serpents to bite them and some of them died. The people then repented and cried out to Moses for help. God listened to Moses and commissioned him to make a fiery serpent and put it on a pole. All who looked upon it were healed. This verse obviously doesn't pertain to us, only those who could "look upon" Jesus, as the Jews looked upom the bronze serpent could "have eternal life". See, the people sinned and were dying, just like in Jesus' time. The cure wasn't belief in the salvific power of the serpent, it was to merely look upon it. That's what saved the Jew. OBVIOUSLY....Jesus meant whoever looked upon His crucified Body would "believe" and have "eternal life", which can't possibly mean us, since we weren't alive back then.

Are you beginning to get the picture?

Eisegesis is easy, anyone can do it.

 

[Webers_Home]

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According to Acts 10:34-48, 1Cor 1:17, and Eph 1:13-14, people are sealed unto the day of redemption the moment they believe the gospel rather than the moment they undergo a ritual baptism.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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As I see it; the debate boils down to two main camps. One camp believes the water of John 3:5 is ordinary water, while the other camp believes the water of John 3:5 is the living water about which the Lord spoke at John 4:10, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39, and Rev 22:17.

In other words: one camp is persuaded that heaven is the source of the water of John 3:5 while the other camp is persuaded that the earth is the source of the water of John 3:5.

My money is on the living water; viz: upon the supernatural water whose source is heaven, rather than upon natural water whose source is the earth.

Cliff
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[Bob Carabbio]

Re: Baptismal Regeneration

"The 'water' of the new birth is a reference to the ordinance of baptism"

That's definitely ONE (of many) common denominational paradigms. It's hardly "universal" by any stretch of the imagination - and OFTEN used in defense of Paedobaptism which is nothing but a superstitious practice that supposedly provides a "Solution" to a problem that doesn't even exist.

But there's not HINT of "baptism" in the context of that passage - only a contrast between "Natrual (Fleshly) Being", and "Spiritual Being".

 

[zeke]

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According to Acts 10:34-48, 1Cor 1:17, and Eph 1:13-14, people are sealed unto the day of redemption the moment they believe the gospel rather than the moment they undergo a ritual baptism.

Cliff
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Peter made it clear that salvation comes to believers who first will "repent and be baptized". On the day the church began three thousand souls (1) believed (2) repented and (3) were baptized "for remission of sins". These baptized believers (and only those baptized believers) were added to the church - the body of Christ - "baptized into Christ". Easy biblical concept.

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)​

Your notion that salvation comes at the moment of belief is non-biblical. The one who believes must "do something" BEFORE his sins are forgiven according to Peter. And what must the believer do - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".

 

[zeke]

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As I see it; the debate boils down to two camps. One camp believes the water of John 3:5 is ordinary water, while the other camp believes the water of John 3:5 is the living water about which the Lord spoke at John 4:10, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39, and Rev 22:17.

In other words: one camp is persuaded that heaven is the source of the water of John 3:5 while the other camp is persuaded that the earth is the source of the water of John 3:5.

I think the "two camps" are these - (1) those who correctly understand that baptism in water is from God and not man and to be Christ's disciple one will obey His command to be immersed in water "for the forgiveness of sins". (2) Those who misunderstand God's ordinance of baptism.

The words of Jesus are clear - the one who believes and submits to baptism is the one who will be saved...

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...†(Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary​

 

[dadof10]

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According to Acts 10:34-48, 1Cor 1:17, and Eph 1:13-14, people are sealed unto the day of redemption the moment they believe the gospel rather than the moment they undergo a ritual baptism.

Cliff
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So, you believe in works salvation instead of salvation by Grace?

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[dadof10]

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As I see it; the debate boils down to two main camps. One camp believes the water of John 3:5 is ordinary water, while the other camp believes the water of John 3:5 is the living water about which the Lord spoke at John 4:10, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39, and Rev 22:17.

In other words: one camp is persuaded that heaven is the source of the water of John 3:5 while the other camp is persuaded that the earth is the source of the water of John 3:5.

My money is on the living water; viz: upon the supernatural water whose source is heaven, rather than upon natural water whose source is the earth.

Cliff
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Do you think it's possible that when Jesus says "born of water and spirit" He is speaking of one event?

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[dadof10]

"The 'water' of the new birth is a reference to the ordinance of baptism"

That's definitely ONE (of many) common denominational paradigms. It's hardly "universal" by any stretch of the imagination - and OFTEN used in defense of Paedobaptism which is nothing but a superstitious practice that supposedly provides a "Solution" to a problem that doesn't even exist.

But there's not HINT of "baptism" in the context of that passage - only a contrast between "Natrual (Fleshly) Being", and "Spiritual Being".

There is not a hint of "born of water=natural birth" anywhere in antiquity. That phrase is not a Hebrew idiom, as has been claimed before on this thread. This is a Protestant attempt to explain away 1500 years of apostolic Christian teaching.

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[Webers_Home]

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So, you believe in works salvation instead of salvation by Grace?

No.

Do you think it's possible that when Jesus says "born of water and spirit" He is speaking of one event?

Yes.


Cliff
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[dadof10]

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No.

Isn't it necessary, in your opinion, for a person to "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" in order to be saved? How is this not considered a "work"?

Contrast your view to mine, where the person is baptized as an infant, recievimg sanctifying Grace and salvation. The baby does NOTHING to merit this Grace.






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[dadof10]

Yes.


Cliff
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Good. What did Jesus and His disciples do right after the discourse with Nicodemus?

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[Webers_Home]

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Isn't it necessary, in your opinion, for a person to "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" in order to be saved? How is this not considered a "work"?

I'm sorry; but this is not the appropriate thread for that particular line of questioning.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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What did Jesus and His disciples do right after the discourse with Nicodemus?

Why ask me when you can look up the answer for yourself? It's located at John 3:22 and John 4:1-2.

If perchance you don't own a Bible of your own, they can be purchased very cheaply at Good Will and/or Salvation Army stores that retail second-hand goods.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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I'm sorry; but this is not the appropriate thread for that particular line of questioning.

Cliff
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It appears to be a very legitimate question but we can see why you want to distance yourself from it. The subject of this thread is the new birth of "water (baptism) and Spirit". Is baptism in water a 'work of merit' that man does to earn salvation or is baptism in water a 'work of God' required of man as an act of obedience of those who will be saved?

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:15-16 NKJV)​

Jesus is quite clear - the promise of salvation is made to the one who believes and demonstrates that belief via obedience in baptism. The one who disbelieves, whether baptized or unbaptized will be condemned. If baptism in water is part of the "doctrine to which you were delivered" (and it is per Jesus Christ) and we 'obey from the heart' the command to be immersed in water we are simply 'working the works of God' - yes?

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:16-18 NKJV)​

 

[dadof10]

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I'm sorry; but this is not the appropriate thread for that particular line of questioning.

Cliff
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Cliff, you're the one who introduced salvation by faith into this when you wrote:

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According to Acts 10:34-48, 1Cor 1:17, and Eph 1:13-14, people are sealed unto the day of redemption the moment they believe the gospel rather than the moment they undergo a ritual baptism.

Cliff
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[dadof10]

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Why ask me when you can look up the answer for yourself? It's located at John 3:22 and John 4:1-2.

If perchance you don't own a Bible of your own, they can be purchased very cheaply at Good Will and/or Salvation Army stores that retail second-hand goods.

Cliff
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Boy...testy...I'm sure goodwill also sells books on manners.

The reason I bring this up (and you ignore it) is because it ties "born of water..." directly with water baptism. Jesus went out and baptized with water right after telling Nicodemus he must be born of water and spirit. You're halfway there, Cliff. At least you don't believe the ridiculous interpretation that "born of water" is "natural birth".

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[Webers_Home]

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Several years ago I attended a Sunday school class directed by a very conceited substitute teacher who thought he was doing the class a good turn by showing it a Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph. After the film; I raised my hand and asked Mr. Whiz-Bang if he thought Joseph was born again.

He was thunderstruck; and not just him, but the rest of the class too. You could have heard a pin drop. So after stammering for a bit he asked me what I meant. And I answered that the Lord said at John 3:3-8 that no man can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Well about that time the whole class erupted into a chaotic cacophony of protests that people in the Old Testament were saved on a different basis than people in the New Testament era. Their protests were irrelevant; because I wasn't asking about Joseph being saved: I was asking about Joseph being born again.

Anyway Mr. I-Know-Everything immediately wrapped up the class without answering my question and didn't afford me an opportunity to ask him about the nature of the water utilized in Joseph's second birth; and since I did not care to chase after him down the hallway, I let the matter drop and wrote him off for the incompetent boob he had demonstrated himself to be.


Cliff
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