Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[zeke]

.
Several years ago I attended a Sunday school class directed by a very conceited substitute teacher who thought he was doing the class a good turn by showing it a Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph. After the film; I raised my hand and asked Mr. Whiz-Bang if he thought Joseph was born again.

He was thunderstruck; and not just him, but the rest of the class too. You could have heard a pin drop. So after stammering for a bit he asked me what I meant. And I answered that the Lord said at John 3:3-8 that no man can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Well about that time the whole class erupted into a chaotic cacophony of protests that people in the Old Testament were saved on a different basis than people in the New Testament era. Their protests were irrelevant; because I wasn't asking about Joseph being saved: I was asking about Joseph being born again.

Anyway about that time Mr. I-Know-Everything wrapped up the class and I never got to ask him about the nature of the water utilized in Joseph's second birth.

Cliff
/

Well, your class teacher may have been "thunderstruck" but the NT leaves no doubt - those who will be "born again" - born of water and Spirit are those who by faith in Christ are baptized in water - 'baptized into Christ Jesus' via the working and influence of the Holy Spirit...

John 3:5. Already had the symbol of water been embodied in an initiatory ordinance, in the baptism of the Jewish expectants of Messiah by the Baptist, not to speak of the baptism of Gentile proselytes before that; and in the Christian Church it was soon to become the great visible door of entrance into “the kingdom of God,” the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost. ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown​

Where does that leave you?

 

[Webers_Home]

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the NT leaves no doubt - those who will be "born again" - born of water and Spirit are those who by faith in Christ are baptized in water

Since a birth from above via water and the Spirit is a must rather than optional, in order to either see or enter the kingdom of God, I've always been kind of curious how the ritual baptism crowd works that out for Old Testament personages like Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Deborah, Samson, Gideon, David, Solomon, Uzziah, and all the prophets. In point off fact; I've yet to uncover a single passage in the Old Testament indicating that any of the people who lived prior to Christ underwent ritual baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Some have proposed that the "water" of John 3:5 is God's word as per John 15:3 and Eph 5:26, but that seems a bit tenuous to me since in other passages the Bible is referred to as seed and milk. Besides, the second birth about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8 isn't a washing; it's a creation.

†. 2Cor 5:17 . . if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

†. Gal 6:15 . . For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor un-circumcision avails anything, but a new creature.

The new creature created by an act of God is 110% sinless and therefore never needs washing.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Does God sin? No. Can God sin? No. Therefore any children born of him don't sin either; nor can they sin because they were born with their Father's nature instead of human nature.

†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and God-likeness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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Since a birth from above via water and the Spirit is a must rather than optional, in order to either see or enter the kingdom of God, I've always been kind of curious how the ritual baptism crowd works that out for Old Testament personages like Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Deborah, Samson, Gideon, David, Solomon, Uzziah, and all the prophets.

Well, those who rightly divide the word of truth understand that the ordinance of baptism was instituted and commanded by Jesus Christ and is only applicable to those who live and die under the “New Covenant” - the covenant ratified by His blood. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, etc did not live under the the NT. You and I do. Those who misunderstand the essential nature of baptism as presented in the NT remain confused and bewildered and present odd 'logic' as they try to deny what God has revealed.

You never answered the question – have you been baptized in water calling on the name of the Lord? If you have not been baptized... why are you waiting...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16)​

In point off fact; I've yet to uncover a single passage in the Old Testament indicating that any of the people who lived prior to Christ underwent ritual baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

In point off fact - your confusion comes from your misapplication of God's word - you do not "rightly divide the word of truth". The ordinance of baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost was not instituted and commanded until AFTER the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. You do understand the concept of "Testator", "death of a Testator", "Old Covenant, "New Covenant" - yes.

“And for this cause he is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the Testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the Testator liveth.” Hebrews 9:15-17
​

 

[dadof10]

.
Several years ago I attended a Sunday school class directed by a very conceited substitute teacher who thought he was doing the class a good turn by showing it a Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph. After the film; I raised my hand and asked Mr. Whiz-Bang if he thought Joseph was born again.

He was thunderstruck; and not just him, but the rest of the class too. You could have heard a pin drop. So after stammering for a bit he asked me what I meant. And I answered that the Lord said at John 3:3-8 that no man can either see nor enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Well about that time the whole class erupted into a chaotic cacophony of protests that people in the Old Testament were saved on a different basis than people in the New Testament era. Their protests were irrelevant; because I wasn't asking about Joseph being saved: I was asking about Joseph being born again.

Anyway Mr. I-Know-Everything immediately wrapped up the class without answering my question and didn't afford me an opportunity to ask him about the nature of the water utilized in Joseph's second birth; and since I did not care to chase after him down the hallway, I let the matter drop and wrote him off for the incompetent boob he had demonstrated himself to be.


Cliff
/

Did you ask the regular teacher when he/she got back? Maybe the sub was just "babysitting".

 

[dadof10]

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Since a birth from above via water and the Spirit is a must rather than optional, in order to either see or enter the kingdom of God, I've always been kind of curious how the ritual baptism crowd works that out for Old Testament personages like Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Deborah, Samson, Gideon, David, Solomon, Uzziah, and all the prophets. In point off fact; I've yet to uncover a single passage in the Old Testament indicating that any of the people who lived prior to Christ underwent ritual baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Doesn't the "salvation by faith alone crowd" have the same problem? I can't remember any OT personages who "accepted Jesus as Lord and savior", yet it's obvious some are saved.

On the same subject:

Their protests were irrelevant; because I wasn't asking about Joseph being saved: I was asking about Joseph being born again.

What's the difference, in your opinion? Are there people who are "saved", but not "born again"? Vice-versa?

 

[Webers_Home]

*************

 

[zeke]

*************

Have you been baptized in water calling on the name of the Lord? If you have not been baptized... why are you waiting...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16)
​

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Did you ask the regular teacher when he/she got back?

No.

Maybe the sub was just babysitting

He was.

During the summer months, when school is out and people go away on vacations, the assistant pastor in charge of adult Sunday school would ask for volunteers to fill in while the regular teachers were away. Well; there were no requirements; and volunteers didn't even have to know the Bible all that well. That guy, though he had a doctorate in chemistry, and living in a beautiful home in a very expensive district, had about as much spiritual insight as a Ken doll.

Cliff
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Doesn't the "salvation by faith alone crowd" have the same problem? I can't remember any OT personages who "accepted Jesus as Lord and savior", yet it's obvious some are saved.

People in the Old Testament era knew a whole lot more about Christ than you might think.

†. Gal 3:8-9 . .The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying: In you all the nations shall be blessed. So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

†. Heb 4:1-3 . . For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Of the six illogical arguments is one called an Argument From Silence; which is a kind of logic that concludes that if something isn't clearly stated, then it's inferred from the silence that there was nothing to state. In other words, an argument from silence says that since the gospel isn't expounded in the Old Testament literature like it's expounded in the New, then it was never expounded. But nevertheless, the prophets knew about Christ whether they wrote extensively about him or not.

†. 1Pet 1:10-12 . . Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

The gospel ball started rolling practically right from the gun.

†. Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Abel was a prophet (Luke 11:50-51) so he was no doubt one of the prophets about whom Peter wrote in 1Pet 1:10-12. So Abel's mom and dad, and his brother Cain too, knew about Christ even back then.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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Are there people who are "saved", but not "born again"? Vice-versa?

Nobody is spared the wrath of God by undergoing a second birth as per John 3:3-8. They're spared by believing the gospel. In other words: first they have to believe the gospel and then they'll be accepted for a second birth.

The purpose of a second birth is a very practical purpose. The Bible's heaven is a place of peace. Someone with my personality can't be allowed to go there. It wouldn't be fair to the others and besides; I wouldn't fit in anyway and I'd never be happy in a society where I couldn't be myself. But that's not all.

Even if I were to make an all-out effort to be on my best behavior, it would only be a matter of time before I showed my true colors and forced God to evict me. Well, the only remedy to my current true colors is to do completely away with them and replace them with better colors.

But then there's also the matter of sin. The only people allowed to associate with God are 110% sinless people; and I've no doubt that's why the Lord said to Nicodemus: "marvel not that I said you must be born again." Well of course it's no marvel! Who can get blood out of a turnip?

†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Cliff
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[zeke]

The only people who will be allowed to associate with God are 110% sinless people...

Are you trying to float the notion that Christians today must be "110% sinless" to associate with God? Are you personally 110% sinless?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:8-9 NKJV)​

Have you been baptized in water calling on the name of the Lord?

 

[dadof10]

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No.


He was.

During the summer months, when school is out and people go away on vacations, the assistant pastor in charge of adult Sunday school would ask for volunteers to fill in while the regular teachers were away. Well; there were no requirements; and volunteers didn't even have to know the Bible all that well. That guy, though he had a doctorate in chemistry, and living in a beautiful home in a very expensive district, had about as much spiritual insight as a Ken doll.

Cliff
/

Then was it fair to blast this guy? I mean, he was just filling in and showing a movie to pass the time until the regular teacher got back.

 

[dadof10]

.
People in the Old Testament era knew a whole lot more about Christ than you might think.

†. Gal 3:8-9 . .The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying: In you all the nations shall be blessed. So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

†. Heb 4:1-3 . . For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Of the six illogical arguments is one called an Argument From Silence; which is a kind of logic that concludes that if something isn't clearly stated, then it's inferred from the silence that there was nothing to state. In other words, an argument from silence says that since the gospel isn't expounded in the Old Testament literature like it's expounded in the New, then it was never expounded. But nevertheless, the prophets knew about Christ whether they wrote extensively about him or not.

†. 1Pet 1:10-12 . . Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

The gospel ball started rolling practically right from the gun.

†. Gen 3:15 . . And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Abel was a prophet (Luke 11:50-51) so he was no doubt one of the prophets about whom Peter wrote in 1Pet 1:10-12. So Abel's mom and dad, and his brother Cain too, knew about Christ even back then.

Cliff
/

Certainly there was the foreshadowing of the Christ in the OT. That's not the point, unless your making the case that simple knowledge of Christ saves. Your point was that there are people in Heaven (like OT prophets, Moses, etc.) who have not had water poured on them. My point is that argument cuts both ways because there are people in Heaven who have not accepted JESUS (as opposed to knowledge of a Messiah) as Lord and savior.

 

[dadof10]

.
Nobody is spared the wrath of God by undergoing a second birth as per John 3:3-8. They're spared by believing the gospel. In other words: first they have to believe the gospel and then they'll be accepted for a second birth.

The purpose of a second birth is a very practical purpose. The Bible's heaven is a place of peace. Someone with my personality can't be allowed to go there. It wouldn't be fair to the others and besides; I wouldn't fit in anyway and I'd never be happy in a society where I couldn't be myself. But that's not all.

Even if I were to make an all-out effort to be on my best behavior, it would only be a matter of time before I showed my true colors and forced God to evict me. Well, the only remedy to my current true colors is to do completely away with them and replace them with better colors.

But then there's also the matter of sin. The only people allowed to associate with God are 110% sinless people; and I've no doubt that's why the Lord said to Nicodemus: "marvel not that I said you must be born again." Well of course it's no marvel! Who can get blood out of a turnip?

†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Cliff
/

OK, so first they have to believe in the gospel which is to be saved, right? Then they have to be "be accepted for a second birth" (born again), where God replaces the old man with a "new creation", right? Is there a gap in time between the two or do they happen simultaneously? What I'm asking is, are there people in Hell who you would consider "saved"?

 

[Webers_Home]

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are there people in Hell who you would consider saved?

No.


Cliff
/

 

[Webb]

I havn't read all of this thread but perhaps one mistake Webers_Home makes is confusing Holy Spirit baptism with water baptism. There is only one baptism today even as it was in Paul's day.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Are you trying to float the notion that Christians today must be 110% sinless to associate with God?

According to 1John 1:8-9 Christians are not sinless. In point of fact, the pronouns "we" and "ourselves" and "us" indict the author of the passage; viz: John wasn't sinless either.

Are you personally 110% sinless?

Yes and No.

I currently exist as two creatures: one born of the earth, and the other born of heaven; viz: one creature born of the flesh, and the other creature born of the Spirit. The creature born of the earth is incurably sinful; while the creature born of the Spirit is incurably sinless.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I really don't feel comfortable telling outsiders things like that because it's not only giving away God's family secrets; but also putting me at risk of being accused of a multiple personality disorder— but what the hay; it's on public display in the Bible so I guess the duality of born-again Christians really isn't all that much of a secret anyway.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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I havn't read all of this thread but perhaps one mistake Webers_Home makes

I'm curious. When did this thread become a gossip column where it's okay to discuss forum members in lieu of discussing forum topics?

Cliff
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[dadof10]

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No.


Cliff
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Would you care to elaborate? Are the terms "saved" and "born again" interchangeable? Are people who are "born again" saved? Are only the saved born again?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Would you care to elaborate?

No.


Cliff
/