Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[Webb]

Response to # 117: Shades of Ben Bogard.

 

[zeke]

[

I currently exist as two creatures: one born of the earth, and the other born of heaven; viz: one creature born of the flesh, and the other creature born of the Spirit. The creature born of the earth is incurably sinful; while the creature born of the Spirit is incurably sinless.

All men are "born of the earth" - Christians, however are "born from above" via the 'new birth' - born of "water and the Spirit". The new birth is 'one birth' with two elements - the water of baptism joined with the purifying influence of the Holy Spirit. Christians are not 'two creatures'. Christians are those who "believe and are baptized" and then comes salvation as the old man of sin becomes one "new creation" in Christ Jesus...washed in the blood of Christ...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJV)

He who believes and is baptized will be saved....(Mar 16:16 NKJV)

...Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood... (Rev 1:5 NKJV)

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[Webers_Home]

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†. John 4:10 . . Jesus replied: If you only knew the gift God has for you, and who I am, you would ask me, and I would give you living water.

The gift God had for that woman was not only His own son, but also eternal life.

†. John 4:14 . .Whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

According to the grammar and syntax of John 4:10-14, the lady with whom the Lord spoke could have obtained eternal life that very day at the well had she so desired— and that incident occurred prior to the Lord's crucifixion and resurrection. In other words; that lady at the well was actually an Old Testament era personage though she's written up in the New.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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†. John 4:10 . . Jesus replied: If you only knew the gift God has for you, and who I am, you would ask me, and I would give you living water.

The gift God had for that woman was not only His own son, but also eternal life.

†. John 4:14 . .Whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

According to the grammar and syntax of John 4:10-14, the lady with whom the Lord spoke could have obtained eternal life that very day at the well had she so desired— and that incident occurred prior to the Lord's crucifixion and resurrection. In other words; that lady at the well was actually an Old Testament era personage though she's written up in the New.

Cliff
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What's your point? The woman at the well was not required to obey the ordinance of baptism at the time of her discussion with the Lord. The command to be "baptized into Christ" was given by a RISEN SAVIOR. You and I live under the New Covenant and we are required to 'obey from the heart the doctrine delivered' and the gospel of Christ includes the command to baptized in water.

 

[Webers_Home]

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What's your point?

Are you honestly still having trouble seeing that the water the Lord discussed with Nicodemus in the third chapter of John is the selfsame water he offered the woman at the well in the fourth chapter? Think about it. No one is exempt from the water-and-Spirit birth requirement in either the Old Testament era or the New. So then the water of John 3:5 can't be narrowly defined as a Christian ritual since water-and-Spirit births were mandatory for people prior to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection as well as after.

Now; if you wish to continue fixating on the ordinary water of ritual baptism be my guest. But what you really ought to do in my opinion is fixate on obtaining living water before it's too late.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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Are you honestly still having trouble seeing that the water the Lord discussed with Nicodemus in the third chapter of John is the selfsame water he offered the woman at the well in the fourth chapter? Think about it. No one is exempt from the water-and-Spirit birth requirement in either the Old Testament era or the New. So then the water of John 3:5 can't be narrowly defined as a Christian ritual since water-and-Spirit births were mandatory for people prior to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection as well as after.

Now; if you wish to continue fixating on the ordinary water of ritual baptism be my guest. But what you really ought to do in my opinion is fixate on obtaining living water before it's too late.

Cliff
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You still misunderstand - one must be "in Christ" to partake of the "living water" and the only one's who are "in Christ" are those who have been "baptized into Christ" via faith and baptism in water - "buried with Him through baptism into death" - "born of water and Spirit". Where does that leave you?

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Rom 6:3-4)

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and a new life" ~ J. B. Lightfoot
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[dadof10]

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No.


Cliff
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It's just as well. I think you're just making this stuff up as you go along anyway. It just keeps getting more and more convoluted.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[Potluck]

All humans are born of water....if you are not clear on this, check with your wife or mother.

Yep. Satan, demons, angels etc. are not born of water. Demons and Satan will not be saved. And angels don't need to be.

Jesus never baptized with water. Why?

Bahama s, your lord said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved--" What more do you need?

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

How many baptisms do I need?
Which is greater? John's or Christ's?

Can I baptize with the Holy Ghost? Can anyone? Hardly. Can Christ? Of course.
It's up to Him, not me or you or any earthly man for that matter. Give credit where credit is due. Let Christ do His work because we can't. Look to Christ, not men for genuine baptism.

If anyone wants to be baptized with water by a man/woman then go for it. It's a great experience of announcing your faith to the community. But it your salvation doesn't rest on it. No man no matter who he is can save you.

So sayeth the LORD:

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

So if I'm not baptizedby water through someone else having all the opportunity to do so I'll not be saved. If I am baptized by man with water then Christ can do His work. That relies on man doing something while Christ waits for that man to do so. That means Christ relies on man before He can baptize me properly. He relies on that person doing the deed and me to arrange it.
I don't know. That all sounds, well, arrogant to me. I don't mean to be offensive but Christ relies on no man.

 

[zeke]

Jesus never baptized with water. Why?

Jesus submitted to baptism - why? The disciples of Jesus baptized believers in water - why? Have you submitted to baptism - if yes - why? If not - why? Is the ordinance of baptism from God or from man? Did Jesus institute and command the ordinance of baptism - to ALL who would be His disciples?

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(Mat 28:18-20 NKJV)​

Why did Peter command those 3000 lost souls who believed on the day of Pentecost to be immersed in water? They asked Peter 'what must we do' to be saved. Peter did not say--'faith alone saves'. No - Peter told them the truth - there is something 'man must do' in addition to believing. Believers must also 'repent and be baptized' FOR THE FORGIVENESS OS SIN.

You need to re-think your sectarian view of baptism. It does not lineup with God's word - yes?

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

 

[Webers_Home]

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one must be "in Christ" to partake of the "living water" and the only one's who are "in Christ" are those who have been "baptized into Christ" via faith and baptism in water

That's clearly an untrue statement since the Lord would have given the lady at the well living water the very day he spoke with her; which was in advance of his death and resurrection and the institution of ritual baptism.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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That's clearly an untrue statement since the Lord would have given the lady at the well living water the very day he spoke with her; which was in advance of his death and resurrection and the institution of ritual baptism.

Cliff
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The truth revealed in Holy Writ trumps your non-biblical view. God's word is clear - one must be "in Christ" to partake of "all spiritual blessings" and the only one's who are "in Christ" are those who have been "baptized into Christ" via faith and baptism in water---per Jesus the Christ.

You simply "kick against the pricks" my friend - why?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ
(Eph 1:3 NKJV)​

The only way to be "in Christ" is to be baptized into Christ.

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:27 NKJV)​

Again I ask - have you been baptized into Christ? You need to seriously re-think you position - it does not agree with God's revelation...

 

[Webers_Home]

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You still misunderstand - one must be "in Christ" to partake of the "living water" and the only one's who are "in Christ" are those who have been "baptized into Christ" via faith and baptism in water

Something else you need to factor into your thinking is that according to John 3:5, living water is a mandatory prerequisite to entering the kingdom; no exceptions. So then, not one single soul, in either the Old Testament's era or the New, is permitted to ether see or enter the kingdom without they first imbibe living water; which means you are going to have to figure out when, where, and how the Old Testament era's personages managed to pull that off.

FYI: I and my fellow imbibers are already citizens of the kingdom. It's a done deal.

†. Col 1:13 . . He has rescued us from the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of His dear son.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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have you been baptized into Christ?

Yes.

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

You need to seriously re-think you position

Is it impossible that it is yourself who needs to seriously re-think their position instead of me?

it does not agree with God's revelation

Is it impossible that it is your own position that does not agree with God's revelation instead of mine? Have you already forgotten what I said about bigotry and your choice of words and the hapless day arriving when you are forced to eat them?

Cliff
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[zeke]

Something else you need to factor into your thinking is that according to John 3:5, living water is a mandatory prerequisite to entering the kingdom; no exceptions.

You are missing the mark once again. Why? The prerequisite for entering the kingdom of God is the 'new birth' - one must be "born of water and the Spirit". One does this when he/she believes that Jesus is the Christ and submits to baptism in water per the Lord's command.

There is one "new birth", but it consists of two elements, *water and the Spirit"...

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Joh 3:5 ESV)​

Peter told those believers on the day of Pentecost to “repent†and to be “baptized for the remission of their sins†and then they would receive “the gift of the Holy Spiritâ€. This is the new birth - the washing of regeneration (immersion in water) and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in water is an act of obedience - the "work of God" - it is the act of obedience that puts the believer "into Christ"...

Peter answered them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. (Act 2:38 ISV)

"...not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Tit 3:5 ASV)​

 

[zeke]

Is it impossible that it is yourself who needs to seriously re-think their position instead of me?

No my friend - it is you who misunderstands the word of God regarding His ordinance of baptism. If you have not been baptized in water...

Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)​

 

[Webb]

What Jesus said to the woman in Jn. 4 was before His death and resurrection. It was after His resurrection that He spoke the words of Mk.16:15,16 and Matt.28:19,20. It does make a difference.

Question for Weber---Is the baptism of I Cor.12:13 Holy Spirit or water?

 

[Webers_Home]

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You are missing the mark once again.

Is it impossible that it is you missing the mark once again instead of me?

Why?

I would like to ask you the very same question.

No my friend

I am not your friend; nor do I wish to be.


Cliff
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[zeke]

Is it impossible that it is you missing the mark once again instead of me?

No my friend - it is you who misunderstands God's word regarding His ordinance of baptism. Your sectarian view misses the mark when compared to the word of God.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Question for Weber---Is the baptism of I Cor.12:13 Holy Spirit or water?

Why ask me anything pertaining to baptisms? You should be asking zeke; since he sincerely believes it impossible for himself to be ignorant, to miss the mark, to misunderstand, or to disagree with God's revelation: nor does he ever need to re-think his position. Sorry; I'd like to help, but I can't compete on that level of infallibility. It's out of my depth.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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Why ask me anything pertaining to baptisms? You should be asking zeke; since he sincerely believes it impossible for himself to be ignorant, to miss the mark, to misunderstand, or to disagree with God's revelation: nor does he ever need to re-think his position. Sorry; I'd like to help, but I can't compete on that level of infallibility. It's out of my depth.

Cliff
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The word of God is inspired my friend and it clearly presents the essential nature of the ordinance of baptism - straight from the infallible mind of God.