Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[dadof10]

If anyone wants to be baptized with water by a man/woman then go for it. It's a great experience of announcing your faith to the community. But it your salvation doesn't rest on it. No man no matter who he is can save you.

No church teaches that the person who pours the water saves the person. Straw-man. Baptism is the normative means of salvation , it's how the merits of Christ's resurrection are given to a person. The Grace of God is poured out upon the person, and he does NOTHING to merit this Grace.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)

So if I'm not baptizedby water through someone else having all the opportunity to do so I'll not be saved. If I am baptized by man with water then Christ can do His work. That relies on man doing something while Christ waits for that man to do so. That means Christ relies on man before He can baptize me properly. He relies on that person doing the deed and me to arrange it.
I don't know. That all sounds, well, arrogant to me. I don't mean to be offensive but Christ relies on no man.

Then why did Christ commission baptism? Were the Apostles acting arrogantly when they obeyed their Master's command?

 

[Potluck]

Ok, I have to ask again.
How many baptisms to I need? Do I need man's baptism by water or Christ's baptism by the Holy Ghost?


And why is there very little mention here of Christ's baptism anyway? All I see is something man does that somehow is required.

For some reason citing Christ as commanding His disciples to go forth and baptize is interpreted as that requirement. It isn't. Christ had not been glorified as yet, and The Law was still in force. He could not yet baptize with the Holy Ghost as John had prophesied. In much the same way John came to declare Christ so were Christ's disciples to do. And they did. That didn't mean they had the power to save. Those who were baptized made that declaration they believed Christ was the Messiah and would eventually save them from their sins, something The Law could not do.

We still do this today as the disciples had done. The difference is Christ does indeed baptize with the Holy Ghost, the wait is over. The declaration remains and Christ's saving power is now assured.

 

[Webb]

The most logical and correct thing Weber has said thus far is that its out of his "depth".

 

[Webers_Home]

.

The most logical and correct thing Weber has said thus far is that its out of his "depth".

I should think that if you were logical at all; you'd have to conclude that zeke's level of infallibility is out of your depth too.

Cliff
/

 

[zeke]

Ok, I have to ask again.
How many baptisms to I need? Do I need man's baptism by water or Christ's baptism by the Holy Ghost?

You need the "one baptism" that was commanded for "all" believers until He comes again - the ordinance of baptism - born of water and Spirit. The one who believes, repents and is baptized in water is the one who receives "forgiveness of sin" and then receives the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit"...

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

For the record - the ordinance of baptism is from God not man - it is God's work that man must work - "work the works of God".

 

[Webers_Home]

.
I mentioned in post #110 that one's second birth serves a practical purpose.

†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

In other words: even if I were to make an all-out effort to be on my best behavior in the Lord's presence, it would only be a matter of time before I showed my true colors and offended God enough to get myself evicted from heaven. Well, the only remedy to my current true colors is to do completely away with them and replace them with better colors; in other words: disconnect me from human nature; which of course is a miraculous procedure that no surgeon on earth, no matter how skilled, could ever perform.

†. Col 2:11-12 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature: not with a circumcision done by the hands of men; but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Back in 1968, when I was still very young and living on my own, I had no beer buddies to hang with, nor any girls-gone-wild in my life distracting my attention. It was just me, my 1961 Volkswagen, and a 305 Honda motorcycle that I rode all over northwest Oregon. So I had plenty of time to myself to think; and one of my thoughts was just what we've been talking about: staying in heaven once I got there; if I got there at all. Well, about that time I was introduced to the passage below.

†. Ezk 36:24-28 . . I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you back to your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: I will cleanse you from all your uncleanness and from all your fetishes. And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit into you: I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender heart; and I will put My spirit into you. Thus I will cause you to follow My laws and faithfully to observe My rules. Then you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people and I will be your God.

Upon reading the above passage; I thought to myself (in so many words) Now that's the cat's meow! Later I was informed that the above passage is a portion of what's called the new covenant; and I was also informed ( to my great relief, as I'm sure you can well imagine) that it's available to not just Yhvh's people; but to Gentiles too as a consequence of merely buying into Christ's crucifixion (Eph 2:11-22) which I did.

At a friend's urging, I visited a small Conservative Baptist church in Portland; and after the service ended, met with the pastor and informed him why I was there that morning. So the Pastor and I, plus my friend and an elder, went down to the rail in front of the stage; where I prayed a very simple, naïve prayer that went something like this:

"Lord, I'm a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's death."

While saying my brief, unrehearsed prayer, I became strangely aware of a heavy, overstuffed chair just behind the rail, suspended maybe about four feet up in the air, and a bit off to the left side, with a lone figure sitting on it looking in my direction. I couldn't really make out the face, but it was wearing a tight, no-nonsense, piercing expression, and the person wearing that piercing expression was intently observing me speak every single syllable of my stupid, naïve prayer. I was thoroughly unraveled by the image, and could hardly wait to get up and get out of there. Needless to say; I told no one there that day what I saw.

Perhaps the person I saw behind the rail was just mental; and the result of nervousness and emotional stress; who really knows for sure? (the apparition didn't speak a single word and vanished as quickly as it appeared) But I will always be fully persuaded in my own mind that at that very moment, the Bible's God made Himself real to me in such a way as to convince me that I no longer had anything to fear from the wrath of God.

Believe me when I tell you I was overwhelmed with immense relief— to the point of weeping uncontrollably like a man condemned to the guillotine suddenly given a last minute pardon —because one thing the Catholic catechism I was forced to attend as a growing boy had succeeded in instilling in my soul was a dread fear of hell and eternal suffering. Having the assurance I no longer needed to fear going there has been the happiest happy thought that to this day has ever gone through my mind; and I now know for myself, by personal experience; that the passage below is true and reliable.

†. Rom 8:16 . . The Spirit himself corroborates with our spirit that we are God's kin.

Note: as everyone reading this no doubt caught; I was raised a Catholic. Of course my training taught me to pray to the Lord's mom. Well; that all came to an abrupt halt right quick because the Spirit that was given me at the moment of my conversion immediately began compelling me to pray to the Lord's father instead of his mother.

†. Rom 8:15 . . For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we call out: Abba! Father!

ps: I'm told that abba is an Aramaic vocative; which is a term of endearment that kids use when they want to get their Father's attention. Abba varies from culture to culture and family to family. Some kids address their fathers as dad, daddy, pop, papa, and/or pa and dee-dee and da-da.

Some of God's children might feel a little uncomforable addressing their Father as pop or papa, but nevertheless; the Spirit assures them that's what they have a right to do if they want.

Cliff
/

 

[zeke]

I mentioned in post #110 that one's second birth serves a practical purpose.

The question remains, Cliff - did you do what Peter told those lost souls to do on the day of Pentecost - did you believe, repent and submit to baptism "calling on the name of the Lord"? Nowhere does God's word tell the lost sinner to 'pray the sinners prayer' and then he will be saved. Jesus was clear - the promise of salvation is to the one who believes, repents and is baptized...

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:15-16 NKJV)

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

 

[Webers_Home]

.
According to Heb 5:12-6:3, people obsessed with baptism are immature and have both the mind, and the needs, of a small child.

Cliff
/

 

[zeke]

.
According to Heb 5:12-6:3, people obsessed with baptism are immature and have both the mind, and the needs, of a small child.

Cliff
/

According to Jesus Christ - who instituted and commanded baptism in water - the one who believes and is baptized is the one who "shall be saved". Baptism is from God - not man. I will go with God's word. Where does that leave you my friend?

If you have not been baptized---why do you wait...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)​

God's word trumps sectarian error.

 

[Webb]

Weber's conclusion is: ''ACCORDING TO HEB.5:12-6:3, PEOPLE OBSESSED WITH BAPTISM ARE IMATURE AND HAVE BOTH THE MIND, AND THE NEEDS OF A SMALL CHILD.''

Jesus said: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned." That is a direct command from the One by whose words we all will someday be judged ( Jn.12:48 ).

According to Weber's definition Jesus is "imature" and has "both the mind, and the needs of a small child."

Another question for Weber: Will you discuss the issue of this thread on the one-on-one?

 

[Webers_Home]

******

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Will you discuss the issue of this thread on the one-on-one?

NO; and in point of fact, I've had quite enough of the issue of this thread. Webers_Home has left the building.

Cliff
/

 

[Webb]

Sorry Webers_Home but on my pc a large commercial obscures your answer. Would you please try again?

 

[Webb]

Never mind Weber your answer "NO" finally appeared. Thanks.

 

[Potluck]

You need the "one baptism" that was commanded for "all" believers until He comes again - the ordinance of baptism - born of water and Spirit. The one who believes, repents and is baptized in water is the one who receives "forgiveness of sin" and then receives the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit"...

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

For the record - the ordinance of baptism is from God not man - it is God's work that man must work - "work the works of God".

Gotta get man in there somehow. Do the works... get saved.
So there's two baptisms that must be done. One is performed by man which allows Christ to do His work. Or opens the door for Him. Once the prerequisites are fulfilled then Christ can do what He does. I don't know. I honestly thought Christ was the sovereign one, the divine one, the innocent one. But if man doesn't baptize with water first, then I suppose Christ has nothing to do but wait.

Well, that just wasn't me experience. Christ did His work for me and I wasn't even looking for God or looking to be saved for that matter. When it's said "in a twinkling" that's exactly how it occurred for me. He even "took" the desire to drink, I didn't have to want to quit.

My hair was on fire for the Lord. For the first time ever I could actually understand the bible. While being discipled I was getting at least two "Wow!"s a day. 6 months later I decided to declare my faith and get baptized. Frankly I don't remember much of it. But I do remember the night Christ touched my heart. Well, more like struck than touched. And even that is putting it lightly. Aug, 19, 1998. Just before 10:00pm. One of my mentors related the story of how he refused to surrender. Well, that lasted for about 2 weeks and the outcome is predictable. Christ won. Oh, and so did my mentor. :D

And of course I knew those who prayed for Christ's forgiveness and got it and those who prayed and didn't. I don't know. It seems different for each. But water baptism is in no way a guarantee to salvation. If people believe that then there's going to be a lot of disappointment. I can honestly say Christ's baptism will never disappoint. He is faithful, He is true, His Word is sure and everlasting.

If you look toward man then the focus is in the wrong direction. Keeping one's attention on Christ is where it's at. Always was and always will be. It's when we look toward ourselves that we begin to falter because we are not faithful, even to ourselves.
Anyway I'm a "one-baptism unto salvation" kind of fella. The baptism from Christ, by his hand and not man's.

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

 

[zeke]

Gotta get man in there somehow. Do the works... get saved.

Well my friend - there is God's way and there is man's way and God is the one who wrote the Book and the Book is clear - there is but "one baptism" that was commanded by the Lord for "all" believers until He comes again. That one baptism is the ordinance of baptism - where the believer is born of water and Spirit.

The Book says the one who believes, repents and is baptized is the one who receives "forgiveness of sin" and the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit". The ordinance of baptism is from God not man - if that truth conflicts with your doctrine then you need to discard your doctrine. The word of God does not change.

We are saved completely and finally by the blood of Christ but we are required to obey from the heart the gospel of Christ and that good news has always included baptism in water - the act of obedience that puts one "into Christ". Remember - there is "obedience leading to righteousness" and baptism in water is part of that obedience...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18 NKJV)​

 

[dadof10]

Ok, I have to ask again.
How many baptisms to I need? Do I need man's baptism by water or Christ's baptism by the Holy Ghost?

One, because they are the same. When a person is baptized with water, he is also baptized by the Spirit and born again. That's what "born of water and spirit" means.

And why is there very little mention here of Christ's baptism anyway? All I see is something man does that somehow is required.

You seem to be bothered by God using men to do His will. This shouldn't trouble you. He has done it throughout salvation history. Jesus said "go forth baptizing..." If He didn't mean for His apostles (men) to go forth and pour water over peoples heads, what do you think He meant?

For some reason citing Christ as commanding His disciples to go forth and baptize is interpreted as that requirement. It isn't.

Really? Sounds like one to me. What makes you think this command is optional?

Christ had not been glorified as yet, and The Law was still in force. He could not yet baptize with the Holy Ghost as John had prophesied. In much the same way John came to declare Christ so were Christ's disciples to do. And they did.

What does any of this have to do with Christ commissioning the apostles to go forth and baptize? He told them to go preach, but not until after Pentecost.

That didn't mean they had the power to save

.

Again, you are putting up a straw man. No one can save but Jesus and no Christian church teaches the contrary.

Those who were baptized made that declaration they believed Christ was the Messiah and would eventually save them from their sins,

Do you think that a declaration is necessary for water baptism? Is water baptism merely symbolic, in your opinion?

 

[dadof10]

Gotta get man in there somehow. Do the works... get saved.

When an infant is baptized, he does nothing to merit salvation. It is freely given and NOTHING is required from him. The "faith alone" belief system, however, does require the person DO something or salvation is not granted. I think you have it backwards.

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[Potluck]

Well Dadof10. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[dadof10]

Well Dadof10. Whatever floats your boat.

The Truth usually does it. And posing irrefutable arguments to Protestants.

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