Born of Water and Born of Spirit to enter heaven

[dadof10]

Why not proxy baptism or baptizing the dead?

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I don't understand your point. Could you elaborate?

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[dadof10]

The way I see it; you have grossly erred by recklessly assuming that Rom 6 3-11 is talking about ritual baptism into Christ when in reality Paul is talking about Spirit baptism into Christ.

There are verses that pertain to baptism in the Spirit, but not all.

" 1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

Peter is obviously talking about water baptism, and saying that it "saves us".

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[bahamas242]

This can also be symbolic. They were baptized by water and we into a different baptism. A baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also this does not say that we shouldn't be baptized, but to say that it saves us, is a bit far in my opinion.

There are verses that pertain to baptism in the Spirit, but not all.

" 1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited

in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

Peter is obviously talking about water baptism, and saying that it "saves us".

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[zeke]

This can also be symbolic. They were baptized by water and we into a different baptism. A baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also this does not say that we shouldn't be baptized, but to say that it saves us, is a bit far in my opinion.

It is quite clear - Peter is referring to baptism in "water" - the kind of water that gets you wet, i.e., the ordinance of baptism commanded by the Lord...

...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...​

 

[Webers_Home]

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1 Peter 3:20-22 ___ Peter is obviously talking about water baptism, and saying that it "saves us".

Peter might have been talking about ritual baptism except for the fact that Noah didn't get wet— not one drop of the Flood's water so much as touched either him or his family.

Question : Where was Noah during the Flood?
Answer : in the ark.

Question : Where will Christ's people be during the wrath to come?
Answer : in Christ.

Question : Who sealed Noah in the ark?
Answer : God sealed him in.

Question : Who seals the Lord's people in Christ?
Answer : the Spirit seals them in.

Are you beginning to get the picture?

†. 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body

In other words; the ark represents Christ. If you are in him you'll be spared. If you're not in him; you'll not be spared.

Here's another dry baptism.

†. 1Cor 10:2 . . And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Question : How many of Moses' people got wet in that baptism?

Answer : Not a single one. They all crossed the Red Sea dry shod; there wasn't even any mud.

Cliff
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[Webers_Home]

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eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

Nobody in the water was saved; they all got dead; and they stayed dead too. To be saved by water, it is necessary to be aboard a vessel that is capable of keeping your head above water. In other words; in order to be saved "by" water; you need a boat. Ironically the very water that killed all the antediluvians served to protect Noah and his family by buoying the ark above it all.

Note : Quite a few Cuban refugees could tell you a little about being saved by water because the sea was their highway to America and thus away from Mr. Castro's oppressive regime.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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Nobody in the water was saved; they all got dead; and they stayed dead too. To be saved by water, it is necessary to be aboard a vessel that is capable of keeping your head above water. In other words; in order to be saved "by" water; you need a boat. Ironically the very water that killed all the antediluvians served to protect Noah and his family by buoying the ark above it all.

Note : Quite a few Cuban refugees could tell you a little about being saved by water because the sea was their highway to America and thus away from Mr. Castro's oppressive regime.

Cliff
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You appear to misunderstand much Cliff – we are saved by the blood of Christ alone when we "obey from the heart the doctrine delivered" via God's word and His word includes the command to be baptized in water. Peter tells us in 1 Per 3:21 that baptism in water 'now saves us' as the “answer of a good conscience toward Godâ€.

Baptism simply points us to the “resurrection of Jesus Christ". Just as the water of the flood separated Noah from the ungodly baptism in water separates the old man of sin from the new man in Christ Jesus (Rom 6:3-5). The old man of sin goes down into the water (H20) and is “buried with him by baptism into death†and the new man comes up out of the water “raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father†- raised to “walk in newness of lifeâ€.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)​

You still didn't answer the questions Cliff. Have you been "baptized into Christ" - a burial in water? Were you "baptized into His death"? Have you been "raised up" out of the water to "walk in newness of life"? Have you been born of water and the Spirit?

 

[zeke]

Peter might have been talking about ritual baptism except for the fact that Noah didn't get wet

Peter was talking about 'water' - the water of the flood that separated Noah from the ungodly and the water of baptism that separates the old man of sin from the new man in Christ who rises up out of the water of baptism "to walk in newness of life". Easy biblical concept.

 

[dadof10]

This can also be symbolic. They were baptized by water and we into a different baptism. A baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. That's what "born of water and spirit" means. When a person is baptized with water, the Holy Spirit is poured out upon him. There are other times when a person is "baptized in the spirit" (nowhere does Scripture say this outpouring only happens once), but that doesn't mean water baptism is merely symbolic.

Also this does not say that we shouldn't be baptized, but to say that it saves us, is a bit far in my opinion.

Your argument is with Peter. He's the one who wrote "baptism, which now saves us".

 

[Webers_Home]

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You appear to misunderstand much Cliff

Is it impossible that you are the one who misunderstands much instead of me? Do you honestly expect me to believe that your interpretations are infallible? Just because people disagree with your interpretations doesn't eo ipso indicate their understanding is mistaken when it could just as easily indicate that it is you who are mistaken. Good Lord you are such a bigot!

I warned you before about your mouth but apparently the Lord's words just bounced off of you like a BB gun shot at a tank armored with depleted uranium.

†. Mtt 12:36-37 . . I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Cliff
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[zeke]

Is it impossible that you are the one who misunderstands much instead of me?

Regarding the Lord's ordinance of baptism it is you who misunderstand.

 

[bahamas242]

Sooo.... What does saying 'you misunderstood' accomplish? Here's the thing. We as humans, can be wrong when it comes to what we're taught, or even what we read. This is not just directed to you zeke but to all of us who claim to absolutely positively 'know' all of the doctrines of the bible as it is truth. Do we ever think 'what if I'm wrong?' on certain subjects? And if we are wrong, we would never get past it because we always think we're right. So I'm not saying who's wrong or right but simply saying let's not be so quick to point to someone's view on the word (the same one everyone is reading, led by the spirit) as wrong.

Regarding the Lord's ordinance of baptism it is you who misunderstand.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Regarding the Lord's ordinance of baptism it is you who misunderstand.

I warned you once before about being a little more circumspect about your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat them.

Now; let's talk about bigots; which Webster's defines as people obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. In other words: a bigot is so conceited that he simply cannot believe it possible for himself to ever be mistaken or get tripped up by misinformation.

Back in 1965, I tried my hand as a Kirby vacuum salesman; and as part of the training I was assigned to read a book titled: How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie. One of Mr. Carnegie's iron-clad rules for productive social intercourse is never, ever, ever tell somebody they're wrong; no; not even when you sincerely believe they are. Telling people they are wrong demeans them, makes them defensive, questions their intelligence, talks down to them, and assassinates their character; plus, it sets your own self up for a complete loss of credibility should it turn out you were the one wrong all along.

Below are a listed some pertinent Christian social skills that seem to work really well in Bible discussions when they're put into practice.

†. Mtt 7:12 . . So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

†. Gal 5:26 . . Let us not become conceited, nor irritate one another

†. Gal 6:1 . . Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.

†. 2Tim 2:24-25 . . The Lord's servant must not quarrel, but be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

†. Eph 5:2 . .Walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us

A thoughtless Christian's mouth grates on people's nerves.

†. 1Cor 13:1-3 . . If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Cliff
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[zeke]

Sooo.... What does saying 'you misunderstood' accomplish? Here's the thing. We as humans, can be wrong when it comes to what we're taught, or even what we read. This is not just directed to you zeke but to all of us who claim to absolutely positively 'know' all of the doctrines of the bible as it is truth. Do we ever think 'what if I'm wrong?' on certain subjects? And if we are wrong, we would never get past it because we always think we're right. So I'm not saying who's wrong or right but simply saying let's not be so quick to point to someone's view on the word (the same one everyone is reading, led by the spirit) as wrong.

But we can 'know positively' the nature and purpose of baptism. God's word does not leave us in doubt. Baptism is an essential teaching of the NT - the one who by faith confesses Christ is then "baptized into Christ" and it is 'in Christ' that we have 'all spiritual blessing'. Error that is being taught concerning God's plan to save humankind should never go unchallenged. The consequences are too important.

To misunderstand the truth regarding baptism as presented in Holy Writ is to misunderstand much. To teach others error regarding the ordinance of baptism or to ridicule that ordinance that comes from the mind of God is an egregious error. Those who teach such error need to be 'corrected' via God's inspired word.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness... 2 Timothy 3:16​

 

[zeke]

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I warned you once before about being a little more circumspect about your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat them.

Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.
(Luk 6:42)​

 

[Webers_Home]

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[Webers_Home]

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Your argument is with Peter. He's the one who wrote "baptism, which now saves us".

In order to properly understand Peter, it's necessary to return to Genesis and analyze the Flood event to which his statement refers.

The waters of the Flood carried out the wrath of God; and it's primary purpose was to do but two things: 1) kill everybody on land, and 2) float the ark.

The point to note is that Noah himself didn't step down into the waters; nor did God ask him to; viz: God instructed Noah to enter the ark rather than enter the waters. In other words: if anything; the Flood baptized the ark rather than baptizing Noah.

It's a pity that so many Christians have been persuaded to focus on the waters instead of analyzing the "like figure", in other words: by fixating on the Flood's waters they've missed the big picture; which is that the ark represents Christ and the baptism that now saves the "us" to whom Peter referred is the Spirit baptism of 1Cor 12:13 which, supernaturally, is the means by which the "us" to whom Peter referred, entered their own ark; viz: the means by which they entered Christ.

After Noah entered the ark; God closed the door behind him, and from that point on, the fate of everybody left on land was sealed. In the same vein: everybody who fails to get baptized into Christ via God's Spirit will fail to survive the wrath to come.

†. Rev 3:7 . .These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Cliff
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[zeke]

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In order to properly understand Peter, it's necessary to return to Genesis and analyze the Flood event to which his statement refers.

The waters of the Flood carried out the wrath of God; and it's primary purpose was to do but two things: 1) kill everybody on land, and 2) float the ark.

The point to note is that Noah himself didn't step down into the waters; nor did God ask him to; viz: God instructed Noah to enter the ark rather than enter the waters. In other words: if anything; the Flood baptized the ark rather than baptizing Noah.

It's a pity that so many Christians have been persuaded to focus on the waters instead of analyzing the "like figure", in other words: by fixating on the Flood's waters they've missed the big picture; which is that the ark represents Christ and the baptism that now saves the "us" to whom Peter referred is the Spirit baptism of 1Cor 12:13 which, supernaturally, is the means by which the "us" to whom Peter referred, entered their own ark; viz: the means by which they entered Christ.

After Noah entered the ark; God closed the door behind him, and from that point on, the fate of everybody left on land was sealed. In the same vein: everybody who fails to get baptized into Christ via God's Spirit will fail to survive the wrath to come.

†. Rev 3:7 . .These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Cliff
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You still miss the mark my friend - the baptism that places one "in Christ" is a burial in water. It is the new birth "of water and Spirit" - one birth, two elements (1) "water" - (2) "Spirit". The water is the kind of water that gets you wet. Those who submit to baptism in water become united with Christ Jesus. Easy concept. Have you been baptized in water? If not, why not?

Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission. Baptism is not man's idea. It was God's idea. It is not a denominational thing. It is a Biblical thing...At the end of his earthly ministry Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Mat_28:19). So Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission.

So when Romans 6:3-4a says that we are baptized into Christ and into his death, I take it to mean that baptism expresses the faith in which we experience union with Christ. This is presumably why God designed the mode of baptism to portray a burial. It represents the death that we experience when we are united to Christ. This is why we are immersed: it's a symbolic burial. ~ John Piper (Pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church)​

 

[bahamas242]

well I completely agree with this, that it is symbolic.

Also Zeke note that the John Piper you quote doesn't believe (as my understanding) that if your not baptized you don't get to heaven but to be fully obedient to Jesus you need to be baptized. Therefore I would think that means that this is a command , not to say that your not saved.

You still miss the mark my friend - the baptism that places one "in Christ" is a burial in water. It is the new birth "of water and Spirit" - one birth, two elements (1) "water" - (2) "Spirit". The water is the kind of water that gets you wet. Those who submit to baptism in water become united with Christ Jesus. Easy concept. Have you been baptized in water? If not, why not?

Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission. Baptism is not man's idea. It was God's idea. It is not a denominational thing. It is a Biblical thing...At the end of his earthly ministry Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Mat_28:19). So Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission.

So when Romans 6:3-4a says that we are baptized into Christ and into his death, I take it to mean that baptism expresses the faith in which we experience union with Christ. This is presumably why God designed the mode of baptism to portray a burial. It represents the death that we experience when we are united to Christ. This is why we are immersed: it's a symbolic burial. ~ John Piper (Pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church)​

 

[zeke]

well I completely agree with this, that it is symbolic.

Do you also agree that symbols mean something? Do you expect to receive that which baptism symbolizes without being baptized in water? You have been baptized?

Also Zeke note that the John Piper you quote doesn't believe (as my understanding) that if your not baptized you don't get to heaven but to be fully obedient to Jesus you need to be baptized. Therefore I would think that means that this is a command , not to say that your not saved.

I don't try to speculate on what Piper believes other than by examining what he has written but I think his points are valid...(1) Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and part of our mission. (2) Baptism is not man's idea. It was God's idea. (3) Baptism in water a burial. (4) Baptism in water unites believers to Christ as we are "baptized into Christ". If you have no problem with these 4 points then we don't have much to disagree about.