Broken Marriage...

[Kyanne]

Looking for some guidance... to make it short, we have been married 19 years, have young children. We have struggled over the years with many issues, and one of them seems to be due to my inability to cope with family issues that we disagree on. We live near my husbands mother, and she is divorced and living with a man. She portrays it as a "roommate" situation but we all know it is not. She is catholic, and attends church, however, does not read the Bible, and does not see anything wrong with living with a man without being married. Early on in our marriage, I told my husband that I didn't agree with this situation, and I didn't want to raise our children up around it, having them thinking this was normal and acceptable. It seems this is an area that even Christians today find no problem with, but I am a very conservative, Bible believing person, and know it isn't right, and I don't want my children having role models like grandmothers, modeling this behavior. Unfortunately, my husband would never take a stand on it, and thinks it's fine to raise our children around this, have them in her home a lot, and doesn't consider the influence it is having on them. I have been left with no options, and thus, my only way of coping over the years was to avoid the situation myself. I just don't take my kids over there, and don't hang out there. It doesn't mean I don't like his mother as a person, but I have not been able to find another way to deal with it. Now my husband has completely lost all respect for me, and I am left with anger knowing that he would never try to see it from my point of view and would not work together as a couple to come to some sort of agreement on this issue when it comes to raising our children. Just looking for some opinions and advice from others on this...thank you.

 

[Matthew G]

I know it's a common "go-to" response, but the two of you need marriage counseling. Yesterday.

Your husband has to take a stand on this topic. Yes, that's his mother, and the bond and relationship that they share is unlike any other on the planet. However, this is his children that we're talking about, and the fact is that his children are to take precedence, always.

Now while I agree 100% that her living situation is not biblical, and can certainly be an influence on your children (how old are they, by the way?), frankly the situation you have is a little complicated, as there are a few ways to look at it.

Number 1 being the simple fact that you can't shelter your children forever. They are going to see things in the world that are not biblical, and that are quite frankly wrong. And furthermore, they're going to see these things in tv, magazines, games, movies, friends, and even family. However, I would venture to suggest that this is an excellent teaching opportunity (depending on their age, hence the question).

Personally, I wouldn't think it's fair to keep the children away from her based on her living situation, but they are your children, not mine, so that's all I'll say to that. What I will say, though, is that perhaps (if they're old enough to understand) this could be a situation where you can teach them that their grandmother is making a mistake. You would need to tread very carefully here so as not to make grandma look like a bad person (which, judging by your post, she's not), but just someone who is making a mistake. And explain that we do not condemn people for making mistakes, but that we pray for them - that just because we make mistakes and do things that God doesn't like doesn't mean that He stops loving us or that He loves us any less - something of that nature.

Example: my grandfather has been a heavy drinker since before I was born (I'm almost 29). As a kid, yes, I saw my granddad drunk a few times (I should clarify that we would discover he was drinking when we got there to visit). And my parents taught me when I was around 7 or so that papa was making a mistake and doing something you really shouldn't do because it's bad for you. But that doesn't mean he's a bad person, or that we shouldn't love him, or that he doesn't love us. It just means he hasn't learned from his mistake yet, and sometimes it takes people a long time to learn from their mistakes. All we can do is love them.

To his credit (I suppose), when I was around 12 I made the mistake of asking him what whiskey tasted like. With a glass in his hand, he looked me dead in my eye and said, "Boy, if I ever see you drinking some **** like this, I'll beat you 'til you can't walk, and then your dad will, too." At which point he looked at my dad, who looked at me and just nodded.

Today, I might have maybe 3 drinks a year, and those few times when I do I can't help but wonder if papa would really get up and beat me if he saw me right now. And I'm pretty sure he would.

Wow. Sorry for the sidetrack there. Hopefully you got the point I was trying to make.

But regardless, you and your husband have to be on the same page when it comes to your children. Period. And especially with this situation, when forced to choose between his wife and his mother (which he basically is in this instance), he's supposed to choose you.

My parents are not Christians (believe me, I've tried). Sometimes when my girls come home from spending the night, my oldest (she's 8) will tell me something that Pop said or ask a question about something she saw or heard. I basically tell her what I mentioned above. She loves her grandparents to death, and she knows they love her, too, but that they just haven't learned yet.

Apologies again for going the roundabout-route, but I hope you get what I'm saying. Look into marriage counseling immediately, and get your butts in there. If your husband won't go, then go by yourself. Any counselor worth the paper their degree is printed on will be able to help you at least present this to your husband in a healthy way, and begin the process of getting it resolved.

God bless.

 

[By Grace]

I know it's a common "go-to" response, but the two of you need marriage counseling. Yesterday.

Matthew, we met on another board, and had good discussion, but agreed to disagree amicably on one issue, which is major to you. In much of this we agree, but I want to add my two cents. Therefore I agree with the suggestion to get counseling, but not for the reasons you cite..

Your husband has to take a stand on this topic. Yes, that's his mother, and the bond and relationship that they share is unlike any other on the planet. However, this is his children that we're talking about, and the fact is that his children are to take precedence, always.

Here is a disagreement, and that is placing the children in first place in a marriage. I believe Scripture is clear in saying that the spousal relationship is primary, and everything else second.

Now while I agree 100% that her living situation is not biblical, and can certainly be an influence on your children (how old are they, by the way?), frankly the situation you have is a little complicated, as there are a few ways to look at it.

This is where I believe that your emphasis is inaccurate. I agree that the situation with her mother is not correct from a Biblical viewpoint, but it seems to me that Kyanne is trying to control the behavior of her mother, which is dysfunctional and possibly co-dependent. God gave us all the freedom to be free moral agents, and that is the awesome realization that we come to when we are saved by grace, not works.

So what I picked up from her was that she seems to be withholding her children from their grandmother until she changes her way, and marries the guy, or he leaves. That is treating her mother like a child, not as an adult who can make choices on her own. Additionally, I believe that she may be breaking the Commandment to "Honor your father and mother". She seems to be sitting in judgment of her choices. None of us are responsible for another person's behavior, but we ARE responsible for the attitudes we inculcate into our children. e

Early on in our marriage, I told my husband that I didn't agree with this situation, and I didn't want to raise our children up around it, having them thinking this was normal and acceptable.

Now it is YOU, sister who is drawing a line in the sand. If Jesus Christ drank wine, went to the homes of Publicans and sinners, and had a former prostitute for a friend, I do not think that loving an adulterous mother would comprise a slipping of high Christian standards. I would suggest that if Jesus Christ is called the "Friend of Sinners" it would not hurt us if indeed, we were also friendly with parents who are living in sin.

As to what you know about the situation with your mom and "Charlie" and what your children perceive it to be are two different things. When they start asking questions, tell them the truth in a way that they can understand without attempting to "poison their minds" by including your children in your dilemma. All that they need to know at this time is that Granny and "Charlie" love them. If you set them up for relaying the condemnation you have in your heart to granny and "Charlie", then you may shut the door to their salvation. thus I say, Love them, and let God worl on them as you pray for them
.

Number 1 being the simple fact that you can't shelter your children forever.

I have no problem with that statement, and I suggest that that may be the unspoken aim of Kyanne.

Here is what God requires:
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?*

 

[Matthew G]

Here is a disagreement, and that is placing the children in first place in a marriage. I believe Scripture is clear in saying that the spousal relationship is primary, and everything else second.

I actually don't think we disagree there. I meant to imply that when given the choice between his relationship with his mother and the relationship with his children, then his children must take precedence. Apologies for the lack of clarification.

This is where I believe that your emphasis is inaccurate. I agree that the situation with her mother is not correct from a Biblical viewpoint, but it seems to me that Kyanne is trying to control the behavior of her mother, which is dysfunctional and possibly co-dependent. God gave us all the freedom to be free moral agents, and that is the awesome realization that we come to when we are saved by grace, not works.

No argument from me there.

Kyanne, By Grace has summed it up much better than I have. You would do well to listen.

 

[By Grace]

Isn't it good to disagree in that sort of manner?

Don't you wish we could all state our opinions without bickering?
BTW nothing insinuated there

 

[reba]

Seems to me she has been with this guy from the beginning of your marriage.. I dont like it it one bit it is wrong that said... it is not a list of guys .. Ask your self if you slept with husband before you were married...

If other than this one BIG thing she is a good grandma your kids can benefit from a grandmothers love.

We are all sinners

 

[Kyanne]

Thank you for your replies so far...one thing that comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 5:11. I know we are to be friends with sinners. I myself work with homeless people, prostitutes, etc. However, what I understand from that scripture is that we are not to really associate ourselves with those that say they are Christians, believers, but do the opposite of what God tells us to do. I do not have a problem with people who do not know, non Christians, but I am very disappointed in those that do call themselves Christians, attend church, take my kids to church with them, yet live their weekly lives doing whatever they feel good about doing, totally disregarding what the Bible states. That is where I have an issue. Also, to clarify, my mother in law has been with many men since I have known her, this one is her current boyfriend of a few years, and she does tend to move them all in with her, so she has almost always had one living with her, just not the same one. Also to clarify, I do not keep my children from her. What I was trying to explain, which is my biggest struggle is that I have no say in this situation. My husband takes our children there all the time, they spend the night there, eat dinner there, go places with them, vacation with them, etc. The only way I have been able to cope with it on my part is by staying out of the situation since my husband doesn't care how I feel on the subject and does what he wants. It has been an ongoing issue for at least 12 years, and has never been resolved, and is only causing more and more strife. Also, we have gone to Christian marriage counseling, and it was the biggest nightmare. The man we had acted very caring and compassionate toward each of us the first two times we met with him. By the third time, unbelievably, he actually started yelling at me during the session. He never allowed me to talk and share my perspective, and allowed my husband to voice all of his concerns. He would not listen to my concerns, told me it was a safe place to share our thoughts, and completely went off on me. I will never go back, and I actually cried about this every time I thought about it for weeks. I couldn't believe that my husband and finally reached out for help, and this man who called himself a Christian had no clue how to counsel a couple like us. I am still angry and almost drawn to tears when I think about it.

 

[By Grace]

However, what I understand from that scripture is that we are not to really associate ourselves with those that say they are Christians, believers, but do the opposite of what God tells us to do. I do not have a problem with people who do not know, non Christians, but I am very disappointed in those that do call themselves Christians, attend church, take my kids to church with them, yet live their weekly lives doing whatever they feel good about doing, totally disregarding what the Bible states...

By the third time, unbelievably, he actually started yelling at me during the session. He never allowed me to talk and share my perspective, and allowed my husband to voice all of his concerns. He would not listen to my concerns, told me it was a safe place to share our thoughts, and completely went off on me. I will never go back, and I actually cried about this every time I thought about it for weeks. I couldn't believe that my husband and finally reached out for help, and this man who called himself a Christian had no clue how to counsel a couple like us. I am still angry and almost drawn to tears when I think about it.

You may have posted the answer that you need.

If this man was as abusive as you say, you need to report him for professional abuse to his superiors, both professionally and ecclesiastically. These days, only a mad man would try to counsel, and not have the backing of an authority, and that is what I mean by "professionally". If you want to remain with a Christian Counselor, I recommend that you check out www.CCEF.ORG or www.iabc.net and perhaps http://www.aacc.net

I feel sad that you were abused by such a "professional", but that does not mean that his unethical behavior (If I correctly understand what you mean by "yelling") is indicative of what true Biblical counseling is about.

I urge you to try it again.

 

[About the Son of God]

Looking for some guidance... to make it short, we have been married 19 years, have young children. We have struggled over the years with many issues, and one of them seems to be due to my inability to cope with family issues that we disagree on.

That makes us contemporaries. I'm being divorced after 19 years (it's taken over two years... and still not finished.... Judge actually retired before the case finished, which has just reset the date AGAIN! :D )

Note: All of my sister in laws are mental at times ; and my mother in law is clearly one of the causes.

We live near my husbands mother,

First mistake, right there.
If you live near your mother, that's a second mistake.

Notice what the bible says about the ideal marriage:
Genesis 2:24 -- "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife."
(BTW: lest someone gets smart -- once you are one flesh -- both pairs of mom's and dad's are his...)

Having breathing distance from parents is the norm; being close to them is possible for some couples, but not all; and isn't healthy to be overly influenced by them.

It's one of the lessons I'm going to be sure to teach my own kids -- if the spouse can't leave mommy and daddy; s/he is still an emotionally unstable baby and you earn your own punishment by marrying them.

Oh, and on that commandment about honoring mother and father; Just note that an Honorarium means money. Eg: care for them in their old age. It's not about putting them on a pedestal (though flattery might make them easier to deal with.... then again, maybe not....)

Early on in our marriage, I told my husband that I didn't agree with this situation, and I didn't want to raise our children up around it, having them thinking this was normal and acceptable. It seems this is an area that even Christians today find no problem with, but I am a very conservative, Bible believing person, and know it isn't right, and I don't want my children having role models like grandmothers, modeling this behavior.

Yep. Similar to what I said to my wife regarding my children going on unsupervised picniks with my stripper sister in law who incessantly talks about not being able to live without sex. But, you see -- my wife's mom is more important to my wife than I am; and mom likes the prodigal daughter parable and wants to put everyone together on picniks to celebrate. (Note not that is bad ends badly: My sister in law's abandoned daughter got a scholarship for abused children out of the pathological relationship too... and grandma was ecstatic about that! she did a GOOD thing. SEEEEEE? )

Sarcasm aside; Being as my MIL/grandma is a woman -- she has no idea what mental ideas of women having sexual urges expressed in fantasy do to young boys -- discussions are pointless. Pornography doesn't register as a problem to her -- for men and women are wired differently and grandma just doesn't get it. She is the "matriarch" of the family, married to the equivalent of "Fred. Flintstone" the prototype of all moronic men (with some justification, I suppose) ... but it doesn't sound like your problem is quite that bad.

A bit of black humor:
My lawyer helpfully pointed out two years ago -- that stripping isn't an illegal line of work so I have no legal cause to want the kids not to be around her. ( I retorted that petty prostitution for gold jewelry and/or free rides home from the strip joint was illegal, but then, that's when the lawyer tunes you out. )

But; That all happened after I began to realize I didn't have a marriage .... and broke down; and that's when the hardest, and best advice I ever got (for my situation) was -- "walk out.... for the kids will eventually figure out what happened. You will loose everything, but not forever."

OTOH:
You're a woman. I doubt your situation is as serious. You do have options even in the worst case (and I hope it isn't going that way) -- but there is no solution; for even in divorce there will always be visitation; roughly most places allow at very least one weekend to the husband every other week. And yes, he can still take them to grandma's.

Now my husband has completely lost all respect for me, and I am left with anger knowing that he would never try to see it from my point of view and would not work together as a couple to come to some sort of agreement on this issue when it comes to raising our children. Just looking for some opinions and advice from others on this...thank you.

I don't know what to say. What does "completely lost all respect" for you mean?

It doesn't sound like your mother in law is actively having sexual relations in front of the kids or encouraging them to move in with someone else; so, it's not a total loss. But it also sounds like you might not have a marriage.
Anger that seeps inside with no place to go will end up making you, yourself, sick.

So what is really important to you? what are you afraid of? what are you willing to risk?
I mean, if the bridge with mom in law is already burnt....?

If your mother in law really is Catholic (Not Anglican/Presbytarian?) then a possibility (long shot?) would be to talk with her parish priest; (It might be entertaining) -- about a quarter of priests, I've been told -- and I have talked with one who did in fact verify his personal obligation to enforce the rule when the scandal is publicly known -- would not allow "room mated" couples to receive at the Lord's supper, eg: for receiving the bread while in Adultery or Fornication enters the person under judgment: 1Corinthians 11:24-30. Emphasis on verse 27.
A priest who gives it to them, knowingly, is essentially cursing them. ( You wouldn't want that, right? and it really is his duty to help her form her conscience about what is sin... )

God hates hypocrisy, but, where faith exists -- God will sometimes (At his option, not ours) write straight with crooked lines...

 

[iLOVE]

Looking for some guidance... to make it short, we have been married 19 years, have young children. We have struggled over the years with many issues, and one of them seems to be due to my inability to cope with family issues that we disagree on. We live near my husbands mother, and she is divorced and living with a man. She portrays it as a "roommate" situation but we all know it is not. She is catholic, and attends church, however, does not read the Bible, and does not see anything wrong with living with a man without being married. Early on in our marriage, I told my husband that I didn't agree with this situation, and I didn't want to raise our children up around it, having them thinking this was normal and acceptable. It seems this is an area that even Christians today find no problem with, but I am a very conservative, Bible believing person, and know it isn't right, and I don't want my children having role models like grandmothers, modeling this behavior. Unfortunately, my husband would never take a stand on it, and thinks it's fine to raise our children around this, have them in her home a lot, and doesn't consider the influence it is having on them. I have been left with no options, and thus, my only way of coping over the years was to avoid the situation myself. I just don't take my kids over there, and don't hang out there. It doesn't mean I don't like his mother as a person, but I have not been able to find another way to deal with it. Now my husband has completely lost all respect for me, and I am left with anger knowing that he would never try to see it from my point of view and would not work together as a couple to come to some sort of agreement on this issue when it comes to raising our children. Just looking for some opinions and advice from others on this...thank you.

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. James 4:1-3 NIV

Your husband is unable to see and understand your point of view because he does not have it in him at this time. This is why you go to God first and ask Him to fix what is broken in your marriage. Ask God to help your husband understand with Godly motives. Do not make the Cross ineffective by trying to live a life of self-effort. Our Holy God created us because He loves us and wants to take care of us.

/

 

[By Grace]

Having breathing distance from parents is the norm; being close to them is possible for some couples, but not all; and isn't healthy to be overly influenced by them.

Oh, and on that commandment about honoring mother and father; Just note that an Honorarium means money. Eg: care for them in their old age. It's not about putting them on a pedestal (though flattery might make them easier to deal with.... then again, maybe not....)

OTOH:
You're a woman. I doubt your situation is as serious. You do have options even in the worst case (and I hope it isn't going that way) -- but there is no solution; for even in divorce there will always be visitation; roughly most places allow at very least one weekend to the husband every other week. And yes, he can still take them to grandma's.

I am sure that you did not mean what I placed in blue that to be as condescending as it seemed to me.
Wanna say it differently?

What you said elsewhere is OK.

I feel sad that you have to go through your experiences

It's one of the lessons I'm going to be sure to teach my own kids -- if the spouse can't leave mommy and daddy; s/he is still an emotionally unstable baby and you earn your own punishment by marrying them.

This statement causes me to wonder if your obvious anger, yes righteous indignation, and perhaps RAGE is being passed down to your children as they observe you? I say that not in judgment, but in compassion because as a receiver of abuse (I am not a victim, but a survivor, by the grace of God!) and before I was healed from that (long process) I could quantify my rage into murdering a specific number of innocent people.

Also remember the adage is true, "apples do not fall far from the tree". In His mercy and at the right time, God permitted me to see my abuser (mom) as an abuse victim herself. When she was 5, her mother died in a mental hospital (in 1925) and she was shuttled from one relative to another for many years. Of course that took an emotional toll, and mom was not able to form significant bonds of permanent and unconditional love with a caring person. Being considered attractive, she received all sorts of unwanted attention, and then morphed that experience into a hatred for her son, and her grandson.

Because your soon-to-be ex-wife had the same parenting experiences as your stripper sister-in-law that indicates a similar dysfunction in their mother, and the one before that. Spiritually speaking, that is generational sin, and it is something that you need to deal with in your own children. Have you prayed over them before they go, placing your hand on their heads, and asking that Jesus send guardian angles to shield them from the evil that you know is happening on those picnics? You as their spiritual head of family as well as their father need to do this constantly.

If you want to talk in a semi-private way, please use the "conversations" function. The moderators can see it, but others cannot, but make sure that you DO NOT check the box which permits others to see what you post, if you want that privacy. We can go via regular email later, but first, we start off this way, OK?

KYANNE:

If this "rings a bell with you", I offer the same privacy. Some things are not meant to be shared on an open forum.

 

[About the Son of God]

I am sure that you did not mean what I placed in blue that to be as condescending as it seemed to me.
Wanna say it differently?

I don't follow your thought. The only blue I see is OTOH. "On the other hand"

The OTOH was concerning that court systems intrinsically are biased toward women in divorce custody issues; there are good reasons for it but none the less -- one's gender does affect who gets the kids in a divorce situation. It's not the only consideration, but it is a major factor in normal cases. The poster of this thread appears to be a normal woman; hence the comment.

What you said elsewhere is OK.

I feel sad that you have to go through your experiences

Shrug.
I married her. It's my own fault for not examining her family background more carefully before embarking recklessly on a marriage with her.
I'm sorry it makes you sad. I just seek to do the best I can in a bad situation.

This statement causes me to wonder if your obvious anger, yes righteous indignation, and perhaps RAGE is being passed down to your children as they observe you?

I have not dealt treacherously. I have done everything to raise godly children. Nor am I the one who filed for divorce.

Malachi 2:14-16.

That statement you are questioning is simply wisdom being passed down.
It's impossible that the children will not be hurt; but it is possible that the children will not repeat the mistake I made.

I'm from a large family. On my side of the family, even to the second cousin level. My divorce is the only one, in over sixty years.
On my wife's side (also a large family); Other than my wife's parents, and two relatives; all marriages have ended in divorce at least once. eg: all the cousins and sisters...

In comparing the two sides of the family -- it's fairly obvious many of the things which support marriages, and many which destroy them. People who share the same interests, marrying their equals, actually loving their spouses and not just their bodies, who agree to be governed by the same set of religious values, and who have the maturity to keep their promises even when they don't like the result; and whos lives are not run by mom and dad; Those marriages last -- and they are surprisingly happy.

Nothing else really lasts.

There are people in this world who ought not marry. My own children are, to be sure, at risk. And even in my own life, I realize that Marriage is optional in any event from here on out. Adoption may be better at this stage than entering another marriage. I have a lot of love to give, and I have always wanted to be a father -- but sharing love can be done in more than one way.

I say that not in judgment, but in compassion because as a receiver of abuse (I am not a victim, but a survivor, by the grace of God!) and before I was healed from that (long process) I could quantify my rage into murdering a specific number of innocent people.

Also remember the adage is true, "apples do not fall far from the tree".

My wife certainly didn't fall far from mom's house. But then, as a young man it didn't occur to me that marrying a woman also means (figuratively) marrying the mother.... another wisdom issue.

In His mercy and at the right time, God permitted me to see my abuser (mom) as an abuse victim herself. When she was 5, her mother died in a mental hospital (in 1925) and she was shuttled from one relative to another for many years. Of course that took an emotional toll, and mom was not able to form significant bonds of permanent and unconditional love with a caring person. Being considered attractive, she received all sorts of unwanted attention, and then morphed that experience into a hatred for her son, and her grandson.

Because your soon-to-be ex-wife had the same parenting experiences as your stripper sister-in-law that indicates a similar dysfunction in their mother, and the one before that. Spiritually speaking, that is generational sin, and it is something that you need to deal with in your own children. Have you prayed over them before they go, placing your hand on their heads, and asking that Jesus send guardian angles to shield them from the evil that you know is happening on those picnics? You as their spiritual head of family as well as their father need to do this constantly.

It's a combinations of generational sins. But yes.
As to praying for my children; I do so when I am able.
For reasons of my own health, I have to avoid paying too much attention to what is actually happening with them.
They become spite pawns of my wife if I do.
I don't see my children much -- for by dragging out the divorce she filed for, she is also able to continue in the never never land of arbitrarily letting me see them less than the state's minimum. Two years and counting.

But, yes, I pray.

 

[By Grace]

Hello About...

i will continue this in the "conversation" I began tonight.
it is not fair to Kyanne that neither of us unintentionally derail her thread

 

[eagle4031]

Ok so there is some unbiblical things going on.
This is an opportunity for you to teach your children love tolerance and acceptance. Most importantly you can point out how they need to live in the future.
Love people for who they are, not what we wish them to be.