Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Fastfredy0]

But Election Isn't Fair! which is to say ... Romans 9:19 “Why does He still blame me [for sinning]? For who [including myself] has [ever] resisted His will and purpose?”​

Everything God does is fair:
Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]?

Last thing to prove is validity of the concept of "election" which is defined as God choosing whom will be saved. In other words, God is the sole cause of one's salvation.
Proof Text: Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,

Summary: God "works everything, which would include election, in agreement with the counsel and design of His will" (Eph. 1:11) and this is "fair" because the maker/owner/potter has the right to do with His creation whatever he chooses.

Aside: When man, burdened by a 'sin nature', takes it upon himself to determine what is fair then things go afoul ... Example: only fair for men who change into women to be treated as if they're women

 

[JLB]

Last thing to prove is validity of the concept of "election" which is defined as God choosing whom will be saved.

Election doesn’t refer to choosing who will be saved.

Election is about choosing for purpose, not choosing for salvation.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Romans 9:11


The purpose for His choices was the bloodline lineage through whom the Messiah would come.

That’s why the Jews are called the elect. They were elected to be the people group God chose to bring forth the Messiah.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


That is the context of Romans 9.

 

[brightfame52]

The other member posted scripture.
It is clear, simple and plain.

It teaches the reason as to WHY Jesus came to us.
To teach us how to be saved.

Here is the scripture again:

John 3:16-17
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Here's what Jesus is teaching:

1. God loves the world. All of humanity---His creation.

2. God gave to us His Son so that we may have eternal life.

3. How we get this eternal life is by believing in the Son. . . they will not perish.

4. The world is saved through Jesus.

(but, of course, we must accept God's conditions).


Don't you believe what Jesus teaches?

You call His words "false comments"??

At the transfiguration (Matthew 17) God said:
THIS IS MY BELOVED SON...LISTEN TO HIM.

Listen to HIM.

More false comments. You can post scripture, but scripture and ones personal comments are not one and the same.

 

[brightfame52]

Fastfredy0

Last thing to prove is validity of the concept of "election" which is defined as God choosing whom will be saved. In other words, God is the sole cause of one's salvation.

Yes and from the same principle in Rom 9 God chose whom would not be saved and would be vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Election doesn’t refer to choosing who will be saved.

False 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

It teaches the reason as to WHY Jesus came to us.
To teach us how to be saved.

Nowhere in scripture ! Jesus came into the world to actually save sinners ! 1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The greek infinitive TO denotes purpose and or result as why He came, the purpose and result will be to save sinners, not to teach sinners how to be saved, that's the most ridiculous thing ever, for the Saviour of sinners.

 

[brightfame52]

Please provide scripture and context that says the Spirit of Grace can’t not be resisted.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51

Grace is Gods Purpose to save, saved by Grace and Purpose given the elect in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now can Gods Purpose of Grace to save be resisted ? If it can, then we concede that Gods will of purpose is subject to mans sinful will,

One writer writes and I agree:

From God’s will comes grace, mercy and salvation, and He gives these things to whomsoever HE wills to receive them, not to those who ‘choose’ to receive. This receiving is not about man’s reception of grace, but of his being given it. Salvation is received because it is given, not because, or after, it has been accepted. God’s will does not await your acceptance of it, for God’s will always has its way. The grace, mercy and salvation from God always succeed in what they were sent to do. As with God’s Word, saving grace and mercy never return to Him void. They cannot be repelled or resisted, for then the will of God Himself would ultimately be subject to the will of man. God would not be Almighty if His will could be resisted. Man would be God, and God would be reduced to having a will that could be easily thwarted by a man’s sinful will. God’s choice of His elect ensures their salvation. Grace is the guarantee that God will save His people from their sins. https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-13

 

[JLB]

Now can Gods Purpose of Grace to save be resisted ?

Yes. It’s very plain and clear that the Spirit of Grace can indeed be resisted.

The Spirit has been resisted from the beginning and up to this very day.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51


You yourself have been shown over and over the truth that the scriptures teach, BUT YOU RESIST THEM.

YOU RESIST THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

Rather you have concocted your own salvation by twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.

You deny the simple plain truth that God loves all the people of the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

You deny and therefore resist the truth that God desires all men to be saved.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4


Over and over you claim that God saves people He has chosen to save before they ever hear and believe the Gospel.

That is a “Christ-less” gospel. It’s “another” gospel, which is no gospel at all.

Only those who believe the Gospel are saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. It’s very plain and clear that the Spirit of Grace can indeed be resisted.

The Spirit has been resisted from the beginning and up to this very day.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51


You yourself have been shown over and over the truth that the scriptures teach, BUT YOU RESIST THEM.

YOU RESIST THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

Rather you have concocted your own salvation by twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.

You deny the simple plain truth that God loves all the people of the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

You deny and therefore resist the truth that God desires all men to be saved.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4


Over and over you claim that God saves people He has chosen to save before they ever hear and believe the Gospel.

That is a “Christ-less” gospel. It’s “another” gospel, which is no gospel at all.

You are deceived. You have deceived yourself.

You promote deception and by this you seek to deceive others.



Only those who believe the Gospel are saved.

Acts 7:51 doesnt say Grace was resisted, the preaching is resisted, that's normal for the perishing, lost 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[JLB]

Acts 7:51 doesnt say Grace was resisted, the preaching is resisted, that's normal for the perishing, lost 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Read it again please.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51

They resisted the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of Grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes... why?

So you can trust someone that does not tell you anything?
Especially someone (God) that can cause you to go to heaven or hell...
but will NOT tell you why?
Or show you how to avoid hell?

Matthew 10:28
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable * to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
If God is a JUST, LOVING and MERCIFUL God,,,
as scripture tells us that He is....
Then it stands to reason that this God who can be wrathful and indignant toward us...
will LET US KNOW HOW to please Him..
HOW to be saved so that He will not kill our body and soul in hell.

The God that Jesus revealed to us is a loving God that wishes that all men could be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 GOD WISHES THAT ALL MEN WOULD COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. (my wording).

This is not the God you are representing in your posts.

Because I'm not smart enough or wise enough.

Jesus spoke to ordinary persons.
God does not speak only to the wise.
Paul did not come with wise words,,,,but to show the power of the Holy Spirit....
ANYONE can understand the Holy Spirit's teachings about salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:1-4 NLT
1 When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters, I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan.
2 For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling.
4 And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.

Or anything else enough to question God... nor is anyone else on the planet.. all the very best of us are are miserable sinners who barely understand anything... like it or not that is who we are..

You are a child of God.
Not a miserable sinner.
God loves you.
Love Him back and be happy and don't give the glory to satan.

God wants man to know how to save himself onlysaved....
Jesus did not die on that cross so that we would NOT know how to become saved.

The NT....Jesus, Paul and the others, want us to know how to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

You must think the Holy Spirt there is trying His best to regenerate/ give Spiritual life to them folk Stephen is preaching to ? Thats crazy. The Spirit is God and He regenerates at will. Same thing with Heb 10:28-29 you think God is trying to regenerate and He couldn't. This shows me your low opinion o Gods Almighty Power, versus a spiritually dead sinners almighty will to thwart gods will lol, this is laughable.

God will NOT regenerate those that do not desire to be regenerated.

You do not believe in free will.

You put regeneration before salvation.

Why do you post Hebrews 10:28-29?

NLT
28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

Those who trample the Son of God will be worse off than those that did not obey the Law of Moses.
They will be punished all the more.

Because they treated as common the New Covenant (the blood covenant)
and have DISDAINED and INSULTED the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us.

The New Covenant which made us holy.


Now here are some questions for you (and those reading along of course):

1. If God predestinates everything...WHY is He going to punish those that trample of Jesus....
which would be what GOD has predestinated??
This is not reflective of a just God.

2. The Holy Spirit supplies us with God's grace.

3. The New Covenant has made us holy in God's eyes.

4. Man is free to DISDAIN AND INSULT the Holy Spirit....


Reformed theology just does not work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. It’s very plain and clear that the Spirit of Grace can indeed be resisted.

The Spirit has been resisted from the beginning and up to this very day.

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51


You yourself have been shown over and over the truth that the scriptures teach, BUT YOU RESIST THEM.

YOU RESIST THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

Rather you have concocted your own salvation by twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.

You deny the simple plain truth that God loves all the people of the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

You deny and therefore resist the truth that God desires all men to be saved.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4


Over and over you claim that God saves people He has chosen to save before they ever hear and believe the Gospel.

That is a “Christ-less” gospel. It’s “another” gospel, which is no gospel at all.

You are deceived. You have deceived yourself.

You promote deception and by this you seek to deceive others.



Only those who believe the Gospel are saved.

Now you won't respond,
but here's the question anyway:

If God desires all men to be saved...
Why aren't they?

Is God unable to save who He wants to save?
(everyone).

Is the NT lying to us and presenting us with a God that does not exist?

The verse you've posted states that THE HOLY SPIRIT is being resisted.

Every Christian knows that the Holy Spirt is A PERSON....
The Holy Spirit is NOT the gospel or the truth that the scriptures teach.

Christians believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity teaches that the HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON.

Here's the verse again:

Acts 7:51
51 “You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!

Please see WHO is being resisted....
The Holy Spirit.....a PERSON.

If THE HOLY SPIRIT is resisted,,,as some in the OT and the NT did...
the truth will not be known.

But it's the 3rd Person of the Trinity that is resisted.

Very clear scripture which some will not accept....

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0



Yes and from the same principle in Rom 9 God chose whom would not be saved and would be vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

Romans 9 doesn't speak about God saving ANY ONE.

No denomination exegetes Romans 9 as the Reformed/Calvinists do.

This is not a good sign.

 

[JLB]

Now you won't respond,
but here's the question anyway:

If God desires all men to be saved...
Why aren't they?

Is God unable to save who He wants to save?
(everyone).

Is the NT lying to us and presenting us with a God that does not exist?

The verse you've posted states that THE HOLY SPIRIT is being resisted.

Every Christian knows that the Holy Spirt is A PERSON....
The Holy Spirit is NOT the gospel or the truth that the scriptures teach.

Christians believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity teaches that the HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON.

Here's the verse again:

Acts 7:51
51 “You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!

Please see WHO is being resisted....
The Holy Spirit.....a PERSON.

If THE HOLY SPIRIT is resisted,,,as some in the OT and the NT did...
the truth will not be known.

But it's the 3rd Person of the Trinity that is resisted.

Very clear scripture which some will not accept....

Amen.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Moderator's Note: Gonna shut this one down for awhile to clean up the posts. Too heated. If we open it up again, please post in a Spirit of love and respect.

Thanks,
Staff