By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[brightfame52]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

 

[brightfame52]

We = Entire Human Race

He is meaning both believers and non-believers.

Absolutely YES!

You know what Children are. No mystery there.

What everyone misses is the 'of' portion. Being a 'Child of' means being born of LITERALLY from that which the phrase is referring to. In this case, being born out of Wrath. Again, it is literal.

Look at the phrase 'Children of' and you will find that it is always literal...

Exodus 1:7
"And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them."

Research the phrase 'Born of'. You will find that in EVERY case it is referring to a LITERAL event...

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Even this is literal...

Acts 13:10
"And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

Long story short. Being 'Children of Wrath' means:

• We were once alive
• We were Unsaved and found unworthy
• We died from the Wrath of God (Literally and Physically)
• God brought us back into this world via new Incarnation

And that my friend is the hard core Truth that most Christians are unable to bear as they have way too much pride to be corrected.

Having said that, you are very close to understanding because you found a missing piece of the puzzle...

Now connect the above verse to the phrase 'Times Past' and you will become forever Enlightened as to what the Church has hidden from the world for thousands of years now.

I will make it plain as can be:

TIMES PAST = PAST LIFE

OK?

And please do not give me this nonsense about how we "only die once". Hebrews 9:27 has been twisted by Pastors to mean something it does not teach. There are plenty of folks in the Bible that died more than one time. Some never died. Some will be Raptured. Etc., etc.

Look brightfame52 . I have no doubt that you will most likely flat out reject what I am showing you here. I will not beat you over the head with my interpretations. I may even be banned for believing the literal interpretation. It happens all the time.

I guarantee you though that if the Holy Ghost is in you, he will lead you to accept that the Unsaved are given another chance as YOU were when you were a Child of Wrath in Times Past.

You were thrown into the Lake of Fire. Now you are here again. God saved you this time. Appreciate what he has done for you and others.

Good luck and God Bless.

You already know we dont agree. I believe i explained myself though, and will continue to.

 

[brightfame52]

The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently wheres there no sin imputed theres no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isnt imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !

 

[for_his_glory]

Yokefellow are you speaking about reincarnation?

There is a literal birth from your mothers womb=flesh
There is a Spiritual rebirth from above=Spiritually born again of God's Spirit

The children of wrath are those who do not accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior. We are all born with a sin nature and have all been found guilty of the sins of the flesh. It's only by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus are we made new again. Not our flesh, but our spirit is renewed by that of the Spiritual rebirth.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[brightfame52]

See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19

man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET

Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[tdidymas]

See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19

man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET

Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

IMO you're coming to a wrong conclusion, because:
1. Dead in sin means headed for lake of fire judgment. Jesus told the Jewish leaders "unless you believe that I am (he), you will die in your sins." This clearly implies subjection to the second death if they don't believe.
2. Paul includes himself and all believers in the "dead in sin" state before God raised us to life in Christ - Eph. 2:5. Therefore, we all (before conversion) were going to lake of fire judgment, because at that time we were all dead in sin.
3. John wrote "he who does not believe has the wrath of God abiding on him." Therefore, prior to our believing the gospel, we all were under God's wrath. Can you remember feeling it? Did the Holy Spirit show it to you?

 

[brightfame52]

tdidymis

IMO you're coming to a wrong conclusion, because:
1. Dead in sin means headed for lake of fire judgment.

I definitely disagree with that ! Thats just your opinion as stated and its without biblical support. Those Christ died for, He was Judged for those sins that would otherwise send them to hell !

 

[for_his_glory]

tdidymis



I definitely disagree with that ! Thats just your opinion as stated and its without biblical support. Those Christ died for, He was Judged for those sins that would otherwise send them to hell !

One is either Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Spiritual regeneration of the Holy Spirit within them and their names found written in the Lamb's Book of Life, or one is judged to the lake of fire for rejecting God and His Son Christ Jesus as their names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life. John 3:5-7; Rev 21:7-8

 

[tdidymas]

tdidymis



I definitely disagree with that ! Thats just your opinion as stated and its without biblical support. Those Christ died for, He was Judged for those sins that would otherwise send them to hell !

What you're saying here only applies to believers.
"He who believes in the Son of God has eternal life. He who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
If you deny that there is a change of position and status in regard to salvation in every person who believes after hearing the gospel, then you are denying what Jesus said in John 3 - "except a man be born again, he shall not see the kingdom of God." You will also be denying that Paul's doctrine that everyone in the natural state is under sin, in Rom. 3:10-18.

The good news is not that Jesus saves us from the penalty of sin only, while leaving us in the sad condition of being dead in sin. The good news is that Jesus "came to destroy the works of the devil," which is the principle of sin operating in every person, per Rom. 7.

Eph. 2:5 says that God raised us up to life in Christ, which is in the context of us believing - 2:8 "by grace are we saved through faith..." Notice it says "through faith." This means that God raising us up to life is in reference to faith. So then, there is a transition from death to life, which means from subjection to the second death to having eternal life. It means from not being written in the book of life to being written in the Lamb's book of life.

IMO you need to do a lot more studying, because your response doesn't meet muster.

 

[Hopeful]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

You seem to have glossed over the portion of the Eph.2:3 that says "in times past".
The reborn no longer have the wicked nature they were once born with.

 

[brightfame52]

Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,

removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal

So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !

 

[brightfame52]

One is either Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Spiritual regeneration of the Holy Spirit within them and their names found written in the Lamb's Book of Life, or one is judged to the lake of fire for rejecting God and His Son Christ Jesus as their names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life. John 3:5-7; Rev 21:7-8

Okay ! I dont see any relevance for this comment whatsoever. Do you understand the OP?

 

[brightfame52]

What you're saying here only applies to believers.
"He who believes in the Son of God has eternal life. He who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
If you deny that there is a change of position and status in regard to salvation in every person who believes after hearing the gospel, then you are denying what Jesus said in John 3 - "except a man be born again, he shall not see the kingdom of God." You will also be denying that Paul's doctrine that everyone in the natural state is under sin, in Rom. 3:10-18.

The good news is not that Jesus saves us from the penalty of sin only, while leaving us in the sad condition of being dead in sin. The good news is that Jesus "came to destroy the works of the devil," which is the principle of sin operating in every person, per Rom. 7.

Eph. 2:5 says that God raised us up to life in Christ, which is in the context of us believing - 2:8 "by grace are we saved through faith..." Notice it says "through faith." This means that God raising us up to life is in reference to faith. So then, there is a transition from death to life, which means from subjection to the second death to having eternal life. It means from not being written in the book of life to being written in the Lamb's book of life.

IMO you need to do a lot more studying, because your response doesn't meet muster.

Nope it applies only to elect while they are enemies and unbelievers. Even as unbelievers the Elect are not under Gods wrath as others are.

 

[brightfame52]

You seem to have glossed over the portion of the Eph.2:3 that says "in times past".
The reborn no longer have the wicked nature they were once born with.

You have lost me friend.

 

[tdidymas]

Nope it applies only to elect while they are enemies and unbelievers. Even as unbelievers the Elect are not under Gods wrath as others are.

I disagree. "Even as the rest" indicates all are under God's wrath while unbelieving. If the elect weren't under God's wrath while unbelieving, then the apostles would not have written many warnings about it. Col. 3:6 "For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience," which is equivalent to Eph. 2:1-2 "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

It means that prior to conversion we were all "sons of disobedience," and under God's wrath. Your interpretation doesn't hold water.

 

[brightfame52]

I disagree. "Even as the rest" indicates all are under God's wrath while unbelieving. If the elect weren't under God's wrath while unbelieving, then the apostles would not have written many warnings about it. Col. 3:6 "For it is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience," which is equivalent to Eph. 2:1-2 "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

It means that prior to conversion we were all "sons of disobedience," and under God's wrath. Your interpretation doesn't hold water.

You free to disagree all you want,it doesnt change the truth. Only the Elect of God, them Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 are never under Gods wrath while they are ungodly unbelievers.

 

[Hopeful]

You have lost me friend.

All men will be under God's wrath after reaching the age of consent.
It is only those who turn from sin and get reborn who will be saved on the last day.

 

[Hopeful]

You free to disagree all you want,it doesnt change the truth. Only the Elect of God, them Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 are never under Gods wrath while they are ungodly unbelievers.

It is really a moot point, isn't it?
If a man turns from sin and unto God he will be saved.
If he doesn't, he will be lost.
As the final designation of each man won't be known until the day of judgement, it is superfluous to infer someone will, or won't be saved, in the past. (or from the beginning)

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay ! I dont see any relevance for this comment whatsoever. Do you understand the OP?

It's very relevant to the topic as in who are the children of wrath. Sorry you can not see that. In simple terms the children of wrath are those who are none of Christ own as they reject Him.

 

[brightfame52]

All men will be under God's wrath after reaching the age of consent.
It is only those who turn from sin and get reborn who will be saved on the last day.

This is coming out of left field !