F
fatguyposer
Guest
Anyone have comments on this?
Sorry for the spelling errors.. heh
Sorry for the spelling errors.. heh
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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K
kwag_myers
Guest
I vote "none of the above". Hope that's okay.
J
Johannes
Guest
I am a "4-point Calvinist," you could say. The only point of Calvinism that doesn't necessarily hold up to scripture is Particular Redemption / Limited Atonement. There are many verses which support it, but there are also a lot of verses to support the other side. So I cannot and will not decide on that issue.
Johannes said:
Sorry Johannes, but there's no such thing as a 4 pointer. You're what's called a Calminian or a Amyraldian.
Moise Amyraut (1596-1664), Amyraldism is basically a Calvinistic theology that denies limited or definite atonement (the "L" in the Tulip acrostic) replacing it with a Universal atonement of limited application.
If you'd like Johannes, we could open a thread on Limited Atonement and post more about it?
Peace
j
N
Novice
Guest
Jason -
What could possibly be coherent about "Universal Atonement of Limited Application"?
Presuming a Sovereign God, Atonement is either a) intended and ultimately effected, (which I gather can no longer be discussed on the site) or b) not intended and therefore not effected, per 5-point Calvinist doctrine.
What could possibly be coherent about "Universal Atonement of Limited Application"?
Presuming a Sovereign God, Atonement is either a) intended and ultimately effected, (which I gather can no longer be discussed on the site) or b) not intended and therefore not effected, per 5-point Calvinist doctrine.
The following link should help clear up any misunderstandings you have about the atonement and what Jesus actually did when He died. If you have any questions we should start a new thread on atonement and talk about them. I don't have time for a debate, but I'll do my best to explain why I believe what I believe.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... ement.html
Peace,
jason
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... ement.html
Peace,
jason
N
Novice
Guest
I particularly liked the article:
A Response to D.A. Waite's Article, "Calvin's Error of Limited Atonement": Isaiah 53
At least the author had the integrity to state the criticism accurately: that a strict Calvinist cannot preach in the pulpit "Repent, because Christ died for you!"; rather, one must state the case more genericallly: "Repent (if you are able) because Christ died for sinners. Perhaps you."
I believe Christ sovereignly accomplished (past tense) His atoning work on the cross - I am not Arminian in the sense of believing man's will is a prerequisite for God's accomplishing His purpose (though it is a mechanism through which God accomplishes his purpose). From what I understand, however, I am not able to rigorously defend this position on this site, so you can PM me if you care to.
Peace,
A Response to D.A. Waite's Article, "Calvin's Error of Limited Atonement": Isaiah 53
At least the author had the integrity to state the criticism accurately: that a strict Calvinist cannot preach in the pulpit "Repent, because Christ died for you!"; rather, one must state the case more genericallly: "Repent (if you are able) because Christ died for sinners. Perhaps you."
I believe Christ sovereignly accomplished (past tense) His atoning work on the cross - I am not Arminian in the sense of believing man's will is a prerequisite for God's accomplishing His purpose (though it is a mechanism through which God accomplishes his purpose). From what I understand, however, I am not able to rigorously defend this position on this site, so you can PM me if you care to.
Peace,
Novice said:
Did the apostles ever tell a non believer that 'Jesus died for their sins?' Nope. If Novice and Free are correct in denying Jesus's atonement was limited, then God has done all He can to save the sinner and ultimately it is up to man's free will to decide. If God cannot direct man's will without being accused of 'invading' man's freewill why preach the Gospel or pray for converts? Shouldn't we pray TO those who make the choice? What comfort will the preacher have for a soulwinning ministry?
Other words to look for are beloved and sheep. Jesus tells us Himself: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. They don't believe because they are not His, simple.
From the moment I gave my life to Christ, I was sure of the doctrines of Grace. Like a pig in mud, I was happy in sin and would never have chosen Jesus Christ if it wasn't for His saving Grace calling me out. As someone pointed out in the Reformed Forum, maybe the TULIP needs to be updated to ELECT: Exhaustive Depravity, Lord-centered Election, Effectual Atonement, Conquering Grace and Triumphant Saints.
I wasn't taught to believe in the limited atonement, I read the Bible and it drips of God's purpose and plan, I've even tried to deny the truths of the Gospel when I first found out I was a calvinist.
Our choices are limited, the pagan who never had the chance to hear the Gospel, did Jesus die for him as well and then not supply a means for them to hear the Gospel? Silly :D to think God would die for the sins and forget to give them the chance to accept or deny the gift. Did these folks have a choice or did God have a plan for them?
“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,†Prov. 16:4.
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,†I Peter 2:8.
“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,†Jude 4.
“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,†II Peter 2:12.
“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,†Rev. 17:17.
We also see “vessels of wrath†which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,†were “endured with much long suffering†in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power knownâ€Â; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory†in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory†upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).
“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,†Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,†Rom. 2:5.
“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,†II Thess. 2:11.
“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,†Acts 13:41.
“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,†John 12:39, 40.
“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,†Matt. 25:41
“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,†John 9:39.
“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,†Matt. 11:25.
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,†Matt. 7:6.
The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).
“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,†Deut. 2:30.
“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.†Joshua 11:20.
“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,†Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)
We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.
Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge (which they take to mean foresight) of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.
"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."
"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)
Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.
Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?
If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing. But I don't share the Gospel because I believe I will change your mind, I share the Gospel for God's glory and because I love Him. Nothing I can do will change your mind.
peace
jason
C
cj
Guest
Jason said:
Praise the Lord...... His work is His work Jason, not your's.
And with God all things are possible.
And praise the Lord that the false doctrines/teachings of all the religious daughter harlots, including Calvinism, will burn at the appointed time.
To say that the death of our Lord was not for all is to speak a lie right out of Satan's mind.
Our Lord is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And the redeeming gospel was preached to both Adam and Eve (in whom were all men) at the time of their fall.... and they believed God and were saved. Thus setting the pattern for all men.
The the way back to God for all men, even those who have not "heard" the redeeming gospel preached, is for a man to believe God.
Every man is created/born with a spirit, and this spirit is the point of contact between God and a man. The corruption that takes away the function of a man's spirit is the hardening of a man's heart as a result of a man's will, the heart that has as its leading edge (between man's spirit and soul), the conscience. Thus taking care of this conscience is the responsibility of each man. And the way to do this to the uttermost is to believe God.
God has made a way for all men, but not all men desire to take God's way.
The "elect" are those who have this desire, but being weaker than the sin in us, require God as life in us so that we may overcome this weakness. Thus God empowers those who desire to believe, to believe.
In love,
cj
What does this have to do with anything?Jason said:
Exactly. You're finally catching on.Jason said:
You need to exand on this.Jason said:
One huge assumption here is that not everyone gets a chance to hear the gospel, that not everyone gets a chance. Another assumption is that God's plan and choice are incompatible.Jason said:
Now that's interesting because when I read the Bible I find Calvinism to be wrong, at least moreso than Arminianism.Jason said:
The implication of this statement is that the gospel cannot be found outside of Calvinism, which is utterly false.Jason said:
Overall, I have found your post very confusing as you seem to be arguing for both sides.
The Jews never thought their Messiah would save anyone other then the Jew, hence the use of the word world, it doesn't denote everyone rather it includes people from all nations. The Apostles never said that Jesus died for the individual sins of everyman and never made the Gospel other in the NT by stating so.
I understand it's an affront to man rebelling, man perfer to think himself in control of everything, even his salvation. You seem to get upset in me saying Jesus did it all... ;-)
Quickly I'll state: Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. The believer is a sheep, Jesus died for the believers, which also means He didn't die for the unbelievers. Unbelievers are never called sheep.
No, you're the one assuming every WILL hear the Gospel. The plain fact of the matter is, to this day many die pagans and have never heard the Gospel..which is the means God uses to bring in His elect.
.
Now that's interesting because when I read the Bible I find Arminianism to be wrong...? What's your point? Show me what the Bible has to say.
For something to be false you have to prove it, simply stating it's false doesn't make it false. Besides, unbelief is decreed from God as everything else is.
How am I arguing for both sides and why do folks attack 'calvinism' but never use Scripture? ;-)
j
C
cj
Guest
Jason said:
This is simply not true.
Sin is what our Lord became. Or maybe you think the scriptures say "some sin".
Jason said:
Thank God this is not His gospel.
Jason sounds like he was a believer from his mothers womb.
Or maybe he is just confused with the matters of what being a believer is, faith, and sin.
But, apostate teachings of false religions will do that to you.
In love,
cj
J
Johannes
Guest
Jason said:
You're right, I am an Amyraldian.
I would have to agree with cj here that this implies that Jesus neither experienced all sin nor died for all sin. This would mean that there is something that we must do to complete our justification before God in order to be saved.Jason said:
On the contrary, your previous statements contradict that you believe that Jesus did it all. This has nothing to do with man being in control of anything; it is about receiving the gift of life. All gifts are just that, gifts; they can be received or rejected.Jason said:
Perhaps you should look closely at John 3:14-18, "14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Notice how many times "whoever/who believes" is used in connection with receiving eternal life. And there are many more verses throught the NT.
You disagree then with Paul:Jason said:
Romans 5:6-8, "6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
You also disagree with Christ:
Matthew 9:12, "But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick."
I have assumed nothing. I simply pointed out your assumption and said that that is not necessarily the case. I didn't say anything beyond that. The "plain fact of the matter" which you state above is something for which you can give no proof, Scriptural or otherwise, so it simply is not a "fact".Jason said:
Okay, I can go with that. This also means that your claim that salvation cannot be found outside of Calvinism is false until it's proven. But of course we both know that no one on the planet can prove either Calvinism or Arminianism to be true. They both have elements of truth and one position is closer to the truth the other.Jason said:
If salvation is found in only one of these positions, we're all in a whole lot of trouble.
For the most part, I'll have to let your post stand as it is, it offers a clear line in the sand. :D
No, the work of God is also in the 'receiving of the gift' by bring about a change in the heart, you require man to bring about this change. If not, then why do some not believe and others do?
Who are the whosoevers? Only the elect.
Who is the 'us' Paul is speaking to?
You've assumed Free, you're assumed. I've given Scripture that clearly teaches what I believe... :angel:
This statement lacks fact, I didn't say one had to be a calvinist to be saved. I'm saying calvinism is the best and fullest expression of the Christian faith. Besides, Jesus is the only way of salvation and most of the world (including the past) doesn't believe or have never heard of Him...don't you think God would supply a means for them to hear the message that will save them? I think they are in a whole lot of trouble.
jason
[/quote]
No, the work of God is also in the 'receiving of the gift' by bring about a change in the heart, you require man to bring about this change. If not, then why do some not believe and others do?
Who are the whosoevers? Only the elect.
Who is the 'us' Paul is speaking to?
You've assumed Free, you're assumed. I've given Scripture that clearly teaches what I believe... :angel:
This statement lacks fact, I didn't say one had to be a calvinist to be saved. I'm saying calvinism is the best and fullest expression of the Christian faith. Besides, Jesus is the only way of salvation and most of the world (including the past) doesn't believe or have never heard of Him...don't you think God would supply a means for them to hear the message that will save them? I think they are in a whole lot of trouble.
jason
[/quote]
C
cj
Guest
Jason said:
No Jason, Christ alone is.
Remember Him..... the One who lives. The Man seated on the throne?
Jason said:
A man is judged according to how he responds to the truth. And this truth is al around him, and even in him.
A man's heart is not what the Lord touches so as to bring a man to salvation. The renewing of the heart takes place after a man is redeemed.
What the Lord does is cause a man to become desperate as a result of outward situations, and then the Lord shines brilliantly in and through the only part of us that is still of God.... our center, the innermost part of our being..... our spirit.
A man is saved when he turns to the bright light that is shining in His spirit. And immediately upon turning, Christ, as the life-giving Spirit, enters into our spirit, renewing it and empowering it with divine life. This is what it means to be born of the Spirit.
It is this divine life that has cme into our spirit that then commences, in the principle of a seed, to begin to enter into our heart and constitute it with itself, meaning, constitute our heart with divine life. This is regeneration and transformation.
The preaching of the gospel is for the building of the Church, but not all men will be this Church.
Who do you think will make up the nations that must eat the leaves of the Tree of Life, found at the end of the book of Revelations?
Revelation  21 : 24, "And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.
Revelation 22:2, "And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."
At the end of this age a great part of the inhabitants of the earth will be killed as a result of the sixth and seventh trumpets. The rest will be judged by Christ at the throne of His glory when He comes back to earth. The condemned ones, the "goats," will be cursed and will perish in the lake of fire, while the justified ones, the "sheep," will be blessed and will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt. 25:31-46). Unlike the New Testament believers, the "sheep" will not be saved and regenerated; they will only be restored to the original state of man as he was created by God. They will be the nations as citizens of the millennial kingdom, in which the overcoming believers will be the kings (20:4, 6) and the saved remnant of Israel will be the priests (Zech. 8:20-23). After the millennial kingdom, a part of these nations, deceived by the devil, will rebel against the Lord and will be consumed by fire from heaven (20:7-9). The rest will be transferred to the new earth to be the nations, which will live around the New Jerusalem and walk by its light. They will be the peoples mentioned in vv. 3 and 4. They, as created but unregenerated men, will be maintained to live forever in their created state through the healing of the leaves of the tree of life (22:2). Even for them there will be no more death (v. 4). Under the shining of the New Jerusalem with the divine glory, neither will they be in darkness.
In love,
cj