CAN GOD DO EVIL?

[elijah23]

My understanding of the word “evil†is to “cause pain.†Yes, I think the Lord sometimes causes us pain, for our own good.

 

[Sinthesis]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

 

[elijah23]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

What is the Lord’s definition of “evil�

 

[Sinthesis]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

What is the Lord’s definition of “evil�

I don't know. But I am sure that my own 'knowing good and evil' is not reliable from God's perspective. Was Christ's crucifixion evil? Or was is good because it was part of God's redemptive plan?

 

[Mysteryman]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

What is the Lord’s definition of “evil�

Hi

Evil is the opposite of peace. There is peace in righteousness, and the opposite is true, that there is no peace in evil = unrighteousness.

Where envy and strife is, there is confusion, there is every evil work - James 3:16

The love of money is the -- root --- of all evil.

 

[elijah23]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

What is the Lord’s definition of “evil�

I don't know. But I am sure that my own 'knowing good and evil' is not reliable from God's perspective. Was Christ's crucifixion evil? Or was is good because it was part of God's redemptive plan?

Because the Bible says the Lord himself did evil, and since the Lord is perfect, my definition of “evil†is “causing pain.†Causing pain is not a bad thing if it is done in self-defense or defense of those we care about, right?

Pain can be emotional or physical.

 

[stovebolts]

Ironically, Cyrus is viewed as a Messiah (Verse 13), a savior, to Israel yet Cyrus maintains allegiance with Marduk and credits Marduk for his successful campaign against Babylon. (see the cylinder of Cyrus)

I know this is both pedantic and a derail, but hey...

Cyrus was a shrewd politician who used different religions to further his own ends. The Persians were new on the international scene while Babylon was seen as the most ancient and culturally sophisticated of cities. If his new empire was to be taken seriously he needed to be seen as the rightful ruler of Babylon. Marduk was the chief of the Babylonian gods and Cyrus claimed that Marduk had chosen him to conquor Babylon because the previous king, Nabonidas, had betrayed Marduk. There was an old Babylonian ritual where once a year the king presented himself in the temple of Marduk to have his face slapped and his ears pulled! Cyrus sent his son to submit to this several times, which was unusual for a conquorer in an age where destruction of a defeated city was the norm. When not in Babylon, however, Cyrus continued to worship the traditional Persian god Ahura Mazda. With the writing of Isaiah 45, Cyrus achieved Messiah status in three different religions, which was no mean feat.

[/pedantic derail]

Thanks for the "pedantic derail" , it's all theologically good!

 

[stovebolts]

Who gets to define 'Evil' here? Are we so perceptive in all matters that our definition of 'Evil' outweighs God's? Can God mock us by using our own myopic definition of 'Evil'?

What is the Lord’s definition of “evil�

I don't know. But I am sure that my own 'knowing good and evil' is not reliable from God's perspective. Was Christ's crucifixion evil? Or was is good because it was part of God's redemptive plan?

In regard to the crucifixion:
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

I believe sufferings reflects directly back to the crucifixion.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When we look at Job and his sufferings, his knowledge and understanding of who God is becomes stretched and enlarged. To whom much has been given, much is expected. ;)

Moving on,
Job 34:10 “Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, from the Almighty to do evil.

To do, and to create are two different items... But concerning this very verse, it is Elihu, the youngest and not even an elder who speaks above those that claim to be wise. We know Elihu's words are true, for YHVH does not include him among those which have sinned during the entire discourse. (Job 42)

 

[Drew]

That doesn't work. If whatever God commands is good by definition then we have to accept that the genocide in Canaan was morally good, along with all the notorious rulings on stoning disobdeient children, forbidding disabled people from approaching the altar and not wearing mixed fibres. I'll take a lot of persuading that the complete and violent destruction of whole ethic groups could ever be good.

I used to hold a similar view - and as a Christian this caused me no small discomfort.

I now have a working hypothesis that I think "rescues" the Christian position from incoherence.

I believe that God had no choice but to sanction the Old Testament genocides and harsh punishments. I suggest that we (Christians) have overly trivialized the "omnipotence" of God - believing that He can do "whatever He wants".

I see no Biblical reason to sustain this. Instead, I suggest that the fall of man placed God in a position where the only possible way available to Him to rescue humanity and creation was to order these genocides. Sound crazy? Well, consider chemotherapy. Is the doctor acting in the patient's best interests? Of course he is. But to save the patient, the doctor must do violence against the patient.

I believe essentially the same dynamic is at work in respect to the "why does God order genocide and other nasty things?" question.

I have a more fine-grained hypothesis as to exactly what is going on in these genocides (and the stuff) about the law - how those things actually work to the ulimate good of humanity. If anyone is interested, I will give more details.

 

[logical bob]

Yes, I'd be very interested. Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Yes, I'd be very interested. Thanks.

Thanks for your interest.

Hypothesis: There exists a “force of evil†in the world. Perhaps one can identify this force with the devil. As much as this view is ridiculed, it probably needs to be pointed out that it is largely a caricature of this view that is actually the subject of such ridicule – the devil as having horns and a pitchfork. While you may wish to challenge me on this, I see no reason at all to rule out the possibility that there is a “force†or power in our world whose goal is to destroy the creation that God has made. Needless to say, the Christian scriptures support this view. That does not make it true, of course, but my argument is really about how the Scriptures present a plausible explanation as to why God had to order all that nasty stuff.

In order to redeem His creation – to fix His creation and humankind as well – God has to “de-activate†or destroy, or cripple this force. Medical analogy: the “force of evil†is like a virus that has infected the very fabric of reality and pushes it to chaos and eventual destruction. Therefore, God needs a “cureâ€.

Hypothesis: This “force of evil†has an Achilles heel – if it can be physically localized, it can be de-activated or defeated.

So God has to localize the power of evil. He then picks a certain people – the nation of Israel – as the means to do this. Now here is the connection to the matter at issue. God uses Israel as a kind of “lure†– God’s goal is to get the power of evil to become localized in the nation of Israel. Now I want to be clear and this remark is not specifically directed at you, logical bob, please think very carefully before anyone accuses me of anti-Semitism here. I am not, repeat not an anti-Semite just because I believe that God uses Israel as the place where the power of sin and evil is localized. If anything, I praise the nation Israel – God has chosen them to suffer the presence of evil in their society so that the world can be saved. They are heroes to all humanity.

So all the genocide and the dreadful punishments under the Law are actually a way to increase the presence of the force of sin in Israel, not decrease it as most would believe. God is effectively “tricking†this force to take up its residence in Israel. And what better way to make sin “comfortable†in Israel than to order it to commit all these genocides. God has a reason for doing this – this is like chemotherapy, there has to be short term pain for long term gain.

Now to try to wrap up this exceedingly superficial treatment – Jesus acts as Israel “wrapped up in one person†– there are tons of Scriptural arguments for this. The climax of the plan is this – the power of sin, localized in Israel as per above, is then further localized in the flesh of Jesus on the cross.

On the cross, the power of sin “burns itself out†in the flesh of Jesus, achieving the goal of the Israel plan.

I believe that, whatever other objections one might have to this picture, it is a view that the Bible actually presents.

 

[Mysteryman]

Yes, I'd be very interested. Thanks.

Thanks for your interest.

Hypothesis: There exists a “force of evil†in the world. Perhaps one can identify this force with the devil. As much as this view is ridiculed, it probably needs to be pointed out that it is largely a caricature of this view that is actually the subject of such ridicule – the devil as having horns and a pitchfork. While you may wish to challenge me on this, I see no reason at all to rule out the possibility that there is a “force†or power in our world whose goal is to destroy the creation that God has made. Needless to say, the Christian scriptures support this view. That does not make it true, of course, but my argument is really about how the Scriptures present a plausible explanation as to why God had to order all that nasty stuff.

In order to redeem His creation – to fix His creation and humankind as well – God has to “de-activate†or destroy, or cripple this force. Medical analogy: the “force of evil†is like a virus that has infected the very fabric of reality and pushes it to chaos and eventual destruction. Therefore, God needs a “cureâ€.

Hypothesis: This “force of evil†has an Achilles heel – if it can be physically localized, it can be de-activated or defeated.

So God has to localize the power of evil. He then picks a certain people – the nation of Israel – as the means to do this. Now here is the connection to the matter at issue. God uses Israel as a kind of “lure†– God’s goal is to get the power of evil to become localized in the nation of Israel. Now I want to be clear and this remark is not specifically directed at you, logical bob, please think very carefully before anyone accuses me of anti-Semitism here. I am not, repeat not an anti-Semite just because I believe that God uses Israel as the place where the power of sin and evil is localized. If anything, I praise the nation Israel – God has chosen them to suffer the presence of evil in their society so that the world can be saved. They are heroes to all humanity.

So all the genocide and the dreadful punishments under the Law are actually a way to increase the presence of the force of sin in Israel, not decrease it as most would believe. God is effectively “tricking†this force to take up its residence in Israel. And what better way to make sin “comfortable†in Israel than to order it to commit all these genocides. God has a reason for doing this – this is like chemotherapy, there has to be short term pain for long term gain.

Now to try to wrap up this exceedingly superficial treatment – Jesus acts as Israel “wrapped up in one person†– there are tons of Scriptural arguments for this. The climax of the plan is this – the power of sin, localized in Israel as per above, is then further localized in the flesh of Jesus on the cross.

On the cross, the power of sin “burns itself out†in the flesh of Jesus, achieving the goal of the Israel plan.

I believe that, whatever other objections one might have to this picture, it is a view that the Bible actually presents.

Hi

I don't have any real objections with what you have said here. I would like to add some info. The word "israel" means, to rule with God. The last adam is the Israel of God, that rules with God - Today.

The "Last Adam" is the body of Christ , and Christ as the head.

 

[logical bob]

Thanks Drew, that's certainly an intriguing theory. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could construct a biblical argument to support it.

 

[veteran]

I always thought that evil is allowed by God, because of the free will thing, but nothing evil or bad can come from God. But Isaiah 45:7 just really confused me.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

can anyone please help me out on this one? Is there any other scriptures about this?

Pretty deep, and it requires lots of Bible study to understand the right answer. The ultimate answer is a big NO.

Who can show me from God's Word where the concept of evil, calamity, adversity, etc., existed PRIOR to Satan's rebellion against Him? Also, who can tell me where God's Word shows it will exist in His Eternity?

I Jn 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)

Just when was that, when Satan sinned from the beginning? God reveals in Ezekiel 28 that He ORIGINALLY created Satan as a good cherub that covereth, his job being to guard God's Throne. Satan was perfect in his ways before he rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself. So when will sin and the works of the devil finally be put away, forever? It will be when Satan, the abode of hell, and the wicked, are all thrown into the "lake of fire".

Who then, is the real author of evil, calamity, adversity, etc.? Certainly not our Heavenly Father.

It's very, very important to keep the time of this world we're in now separate from the time prior to Satan's rebellion, and the time of the world to come with God's Eternity. In this world, God allows Satan to work against those who rebel along with him. Like Peter said, our Heavenly Father is long-sufferring, and doesn't want anyone to perish. He's giving people time to make their minds up. And for those who believe on Him through His Son, He already gives a taste of the Heavenly Gifts to come of the next world.

The following verses have a parallel meaning, since God used the Assyrian as a 'type' for Satan in Ezekiel 31 and Isaiah 14.

Isa 10:5-6
5 O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation.
6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
(KJV)

We are to understand that God uses "the Assyrian" as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. But that's for this world, not the world to come. Does that mean God is responsible for the evil that one does in punishing? No, because it's the rebellious who bring it upon themselves by their own doings. It doesn't matter how sorry we may feel for one who is rebellious, if they continue to rebel and don't come to understanding how even will God help them? Can we disannul God's judgments against those who rebel against Him? And stubborness is equated with rebellion per God's Word.

Isa 30:31-33
31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will He fight with it.
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; He hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
(KJV)

In that Isaiah 30 example, God is giving a direct comparison between "the Assyrian" and the devil. Tophet was a place southeast of Jerusalem in the valley of Hinnom where idol worshippers of Judea sacrificed their own children in the fire. Our Lord Jesus referred to it as Gehenna, which was translated to "hell" in the KJV in several examples, when He was talking about the "lake of fire" event. God has ordained that "lake of fire" event for Satan's destruction from times "of old", probably meaning since the time he first rebelled against Him.

So the idea of evil is simply a word to define the works of the devil. And since the devil did not originally do evil, but originally was created good, followed God and was perfect in his ways, the very start of evil must be assigned to him at his original rebellion. That's also why the end of all evil will happen with his future destruction in the "lake of fire". But until that time, God has put a choice before us, to follow Him through His Son or to follow after evil.

 

[glorydaz]

Great job, Veteran.... :amen

 

[Hawkins]

I always thought that evil is allowed by God, because of the free will thing, but nothing evil or bad can come from God. But Isaiah 45:7 just really confused me.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

can anyone please help me out on this one? Is there any other scriptures about this?

The answer is a "No" to our comprehension. But OT is often written in an absolute sense of sovereignty. So if you speak absolute, you may also say that "God did it" because He owns the absolute and ultimate responsibility for whatever occurred in this universe, though He hates evil. He allows the existence of evil for a purpose, I think, as part of His ultimate plan of our salvation.