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Catholic.........Non-Denominational?
- Thread starter Mungo
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Mungo
Member
jaybo
There are several subjects, so I'll try to summarize my thoughts...
In my opinion no denomination has a complete understanding of God's truth. They are spiritually discerned and nobody is infallible, so there are different doctrines, beliefs, and rituals. These have been codified into denominations, even though Paul warned about following different leaders in 1 Corinthians 1:12, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” and John wrote in Revelation about the problems with the various churches and their doctrines and practices
To me, the most problematic of the denominations, at least on this forum, is the Catholic denomination. They make the claim that they are the one true church (even though they are just one denomination), the original church (forgetting that a) the first churches were comprised of Jews and b) there is no mention of their denomination in the entire Bible), and that c) their doctrine is the only true one. As a non-denominational Protestant, I believe what the Bible says, and much of what the Catholic denomination teaches is not in the Bible. So, I write my thoughts often and they are often in disagreement with Catholic doctrine.
For example, Matthew's gospel (chapter 16:13-28) says this...
"When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.” Then he instructed his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."
From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and experts in the law, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. So Peter(!) took him aside and began to rebuke him: “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of me will find it. For what does it benefit a person if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
The Holy Spirit prompted Matthew to write the text that I have underlined -- in my opinion to prevent the preceding paragraph from exalting Peter to a false status. Jesus called him Satan; He never called another person by that name! He called him a stumbling block, in obvious contrast to discussing the rock on which the church would be built. And said that "the rock" had his mind set on man's interest, not Gods!
I have discussed this before, but people think I am expressing thoughts contrary to Catholic doctrine instead of my clarifying what Scripture says, regardless of which denomination misinterprets it.
Continuing onward... there is one church, the body of Christ. All Christians are part of His body, so it is wrong to divide it. 1 Corinthians 12:12-25, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit. For in fact the body is not a single member, but many. If the foot says, “Since I am not a hand, I am not part of the body,” it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. And if the ear says, “Since I am not an eye, I am not part of the body,” it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. If the whole body were an eye, what part would do the hearing? If the whole were an ear, what part would exercise the sense of smell? But as a matter of fact, God has placed each of the members in the body just as he decided. If they were all the same member, where would the body be? So now there are many members, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor in turn can the head say to the foot, “I do not need you.” On the contrary, those members that seem to be weaker are essential, and those members we consider less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our unpresentable members are clothed with dignity, but our presentable members do not need this. Instead, God has blended together the body, giving greater honor to the lesser member, so that there may be no division in the body, but the members may have mutual concern for one another."
I have much more to say about this and other topics, but this is long enough. My wish is that the Catholic denomination would realize that we are all one in Christ. It doesn't matter who came first -- in fact it was the Jews who started the first churches, with the Gentiles coming in later -- and that their way of practicing Christianity is not the way, the truth, and the life.
I hope to be able to continue participating in discussions on these forums, expressing my thoughts as a very serious, Bible-believing, non-denominational Christian. I don't expect everyone to accept what I write, but I write from a sincere heart and a love of God.
There are several subjects, so I'll try to summarize my thoughts...
In my opinion no denomination has a complete understanding of God's truth. They are spiritually discerned and nobody is infallible, so there are different doctrines, beliefs, and rituals. These have been codified into denominations, even though Paul warned about following different leaders in 1 Corinthians 1:12, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” and John wrote in Revelation about the problems with the various churches and their doctrines and practices
To me, the most problematic of the denominations, at least on this forum, is the Catholic denomination. They make the claim that they are the one true church (even though they are just one denomination), the original church (forgetting that a) the first churches were comprised of Jews and b) there is no mention of their denomination in the entire Bible), and that c) their doctrine is the only true one. As a non-denominational Protestant, I believe what the Bible says, and much of what the Catholic denomination teaches is not in the Bible. So, I write my thoughts often and they are often in disagreement with Catholic doctrine.
For example, Matthew's gospel (chapter 16:13-28) says this...
"When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.” Then he instructed his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."
But it doesn't end here!
From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and experts in the law, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. So Peter(!) took him aside and began to rebuke him: “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of me will find it. For what does it benefit a person if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life? For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
The Holy Spirit prompted Matthew to write the text that I have underlined -- in my opinion to prevent the preceding paragraph from exalting Peter to a false status. Jesus called him Satan; He never called another person by that name! He called him a stumbling block, in obvious contrast to discussing the rock on which the church would be built. And said that "the rock" had his mind set on man's interest, not Gods!
I have discussed this before, but people think I am expressing thoughts contrary to Catholic doctrine instead of my clarifying what Scripture says, regardless of which denomination misinterprets it.
Continuing onward... there is one church, the body of Christ. All Christians are part of His body, so it is wrong to divide it. 1 Corinthians 12:12-25, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit. For in fact the body is not a single member, but many. If the foot says, “Since I am not a hand, I am not part of the body,” it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. And if the ear says, “Since I am not an eye, I am not part of the body,” it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. If the whole body were an eye, what part would do the hearing? If the whole were an ear, what part would exercise the sense of smell? But as a matter of fact, God has placed each of the members in the body just as he decided. If they were all the same member, where would the body be? So now there are many members, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor in turn can the head say to the foot, “I do not need you.” On the contrary, those members that seem to be weaker are essential, and those members we consider less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our unpresentable members are clothed with dignity, but our presentable members do not need this. Instead, God has blended together the body, giving greater honor to the lesser member, so that there may be no division in the body, but the members may have mutual concern for one another."
I have much more to say about this and other topics, but this is long enough. My wish is that the Catholic denomination would realize that we are all one in Christ. It doesn't matter who came first -- in fact it was the Jews who started the first churches, with the Gentiles coming in later -- and that their way of practicing Christianity is not the way, the truth, and the life.
I hope to be able to continue participating in discussions on these forums, expressing my thoughts as a very serious, Bible-believing, non-denominational Christian. I don't expect everyone to accept what I write, but I write from a sincere heart and a love of God.
I'm ignored by jaybo. Anything I post will be from the peanut gallery on the bench.
The language jaybo used is less than accurate but admits to the Catholic Church as the foundation of Faith in Christ.
Denomination, de- named. Communities of common belief in Christ wanted their own name.
Catholic then is the name that the prefix 'de' is attached to. Now that is forgotten and non seems to be a prefix for the denamed. Not denamed somehow makes sense these days.
Grace and Peace
The language jaybo used is less than accurate but admits to the Catholic Church as the foundation of Faith in Christ.
Denomination, de- named. Communities of common belief in Christ wanted their own name.
Catholic then is the name that the prefix 'de' is attached to. Now that is forgotten and non seems to be a prefix for the denamed. Not denamed somehow makes sense these days.
Grace and Peace
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I read your post. I never said and never will say that the Catholic Church is the foundation of faith in Christ. It is just one denomination, and all Christian denominations have their foundation in Jesus Christ.
"denamed" is nonsense. If that means anything, it is the removal of a name.
Denomination has a clear meaning: a religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.
Mungo
Member
Basically this is just one big excuse to invent your own version of Christianity rather than accept what Jesus taught via the apostles. You say nobody is infallible but you rely on your own personal interpretations and opinions.
Jesus founded one Church (Mt 16:18). He founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)
He gave that Church one set of doctrines (Jud 3); a unity of belief (Phil. 1:27, 2:2)
Jesus made promises to this Church, covenant promises, which he guarantees (Heb 7:22)
Jesus promised his Church would be indefectible. – the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18)
He promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)
He appointed the Apostles with Peter as the leader (Mt 16:18-19) and gave them the mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. (Mt 28:16-20)
He promised he would not leave them on their own (Jn 14:18) but that he would be with them until the end of the age (Mt 28:20)
He prayed that it would be one Church (Jn 17:20-23)
He prayed that the Father would consecrate the Apostles in the truth (Jn 17:17), and the Father always hears Jesus (Jn 11:41-42). We are therefore guaranteed by Jesus that what his Church teaches is the truth.
That Church is headed by Christ (Col 1:18), but he appointed Peter to be the visible head on earth (Mt 16:18-19), to be the universal shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) of Christ’s one fold (Jn 10:16). This is the Catholic Church
Catholics believe the Church that Jesus founded is both visible and invisible. It is visible in that it exists in a visible structure, with a visible organisation and with authority given it by Jesus himself (Mt 28:18-20).
That visible organisation is the Catholic Church.
Spoken like a true Catholic. I know that you believe the propaganda that Catholic denomination has created for centuries but, as I have said many times, I believe what the Bible clearly says.
It is chutzpah to claim that your denomination is the one true church, founded on the fallible, vacillating Peter. Since "Catholic" isn't mentioned anywhere in Scripture, it's clearly the invention of men.
Everything that you said about the church is true ... about the church (with the exception of Peter). In the Bible, the church is the body of Christ. It is not your denomination.
Ephesians 1:23, "Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all." (Not the Catholic denomination!)
Ephesians 5:29-30, "For no one has ever hated his own body, but he feeds it and takes care of it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of his body." (All Christians, not just the Catholic denomination!)
Mungo
Member
Yes, the Church is the body of Christ.
That takes nothing away from the scriptures I posted - which you have failed to respond to.
You posted 20 separate selections from Scripture. I have no desire to respond to your chosen selections, nor do I feel the need to debate on your terms.
BTW, it's encouraging that you're actually debating using Scripture (even if it's out of context). Are you moving toward sola scriptura?
Do you want some Scripture to respond to? Try these selections...
Matthew 16:22-23, "So Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him:[Jesus] “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”
Peter is a) called Satan, b) a stumbling block, c) is setting his mind on man's interest, not God's.
Then Jesus says in Matthew 18:7, "Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come."
Mungo
Member
Unlike you I'm always posting scripture.
No, it's illogical and unbiblical.
Another attempted diversion.
It just proves you have no answer.
Where is the Scripture in this post of yours?
"Yes, the Church is the body of Christ.
That takes nothing away from the scriptures I posted - which you have failed to respond to."
Your opinion of sola scriptura is simply your opinion, nothing more.
Another attempted diversion -- by you. It just proves that you have no valid answer.
Mungo
Member
See post #5
But to save byou looking, here they are again.
Jesus founded one Church (Mt 16:18). He founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)
He gave that Church one set of doctrines (Jud 3); a unity of belief (Phil. 1:27, 2:2)
Jesus made promises to this Church, covenant promises, which he guarantees (Heb 7:22)
Jesus promised his Church would be indefectible. – the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18)
He promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)
He appointed the Apostles with Peter as the leader (Mt 16:18-19) and gave them the mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. (Mt 28:16-20)
He promised he would not leave them on their own (Jn 14:18) but that he would be with them until the end of the age (Mt 28:20)
He prayed that it would be one Church (Jn 17:20-23)
He prayed that the Father would consecrate the Apostles in the truth (Jn 17:17), and the Father always hears Jesus (Jn 11:41-42). We are therefore guaranteed by Jesus that what his Church teaches is the truth.
That Church is headed by Christ (Col 1:18), but he appointed Peter to be the visible head on earth (Mt 16:18-19), to be the universal shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) of Christ’s one fold (Jn 10:16). This is the Catholic Church
Catholics believe the Church that Jesus founded is both visible and invisible. It is visible in that it exists in a visible structure, with a visible organisation and with authority given it by Jesus himself (Mt 28:18-20).
That's 18 scriptures for you to ignore again.
Mungo
Member
I'll demonstarte why Sola Scriptura is false if you like but I didn't want to divert from the topic.
No valid answer to which question?
Catholicism is a denomination, it is not (and never was) the church. It is simply a denomination; the church is the entire body of Christ (all believers).
I know that you're interested in the fabricated history of your denomination, but it is not factual. It is in reality a manufactured history. You can post all kinds of "proof" that is taught by your priests, but like all history, it is written to glorify the culture of the authors. It is not objective history! Repeating it over and over ad nauseum proves nothing.
Written truth is found in the Bible, nowhere else. As I have said over and over, "Catholic" is not in the Bible (nor is Pope, Cardinal, and other terms of your denomination). You can believe whatever you want and post it over and over, but you will exhaust yourself trying to get me to accept your unScriptural Catholic information (not facts).
Mungo
Member
Lots of opinions there jaybo. And as you admit you are not infallible.
Now how about actually addressing the 18 scriptures I posted!
You don't dictate my response. I get all the Scripture I need from the Bible, not your posts. Of course, the Bible is just ancillary to what you believe, since you don't accept sola scriptura.
Enjoy your mutton.
Mungo
Member
Translation:
I have no scriptures to offer.
My opinions should be enough for you.
I've proved to you from the Bible that your "non-denomination" version of christianity is unbiblical.
a) You proved it to yourself. That is called self-delusion. You haven't proved anything to me.
b) BTW, Christianity is capitalized by believers. Only atheists don't capitalize it.
It is of absolutely no concern to me that you think my Christianity is unBiblical. I know for certain that my faith is based entirely on the Bible, not the made-up teachings of men. That is the main difference between what I believe and what you believe. Sola scriptura!
As an example, Catholics claim that the (flawed) man Peter was the first Pope. Has it ever occurred to you that the word "Pope" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture? Has it ever occurred to you that the head of the church is Jesus Christ?
Ephesians 5:25-30, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body."
No mention of Peter, no mention of the Pope, no mention of the Catholic denomination! You exalt Peter, a flawed man, as head of the church, yet it says that Christ (not Peter) loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy and blameless. It says that Christ (not Peter) feeds and cares for the church. We are members of Christ's body, not Peter's.
This is just one of the reasons that I believe what the Bible clearly says, not the self-serving doctrine invented by your denomination.
Ephesians 5:25-30, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body."
No mention of Peter, no mention of the Pope, no mention of the Catholic denomination! You exalt Peter, a flawed man, as head of the church, yet it says that Christ (not Peter) loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy and blameless. It says that Christ (not Peter) feeds and cares for the church. We are members of Christ's body, not Peter's.
This is just one of the reasons that I believe what the Bible clearly says, not the self-serving doctrine invented by your denomination.
Mungo
Member
Since you cannot refute the scriptures I gave you I think I have proved it.
You are just in denial.
Well, if you want to remain in untruths that is up to you.
If your faith was based on the Bible then you would be able to show me where I am wrong.
An illogical and unbiblical doctrine.
Since you cannot refute the scriptures I gave you, I have proved my point.
You and your entire denomination are in denial.
You clearly want to remain in your denominational untruths.
Sola scriptura!