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Chopper's thread 0n Rapture
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Deborah13
Member
Would this scripture pertain to the generation that is spoken of within the context of Luke?
Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Could you answer the simple question I have asked you.
Not only that generation, but all the way to 1945.
The Lord has said He will remember His Covenant for 1000 generations.
Deborah13
Member
"for the overspreading of abominations" What were the abominations that would cause this "prince" to "make it desolate?"
Are you saying that sometime in the future Israel will build a temple and a prince (antichrist) will destroy it, for the overspreading of abominations? If so, what abominations?
Are we to believe that an antichrist would care about the death of the prophets?
I don't know what you mean by this statement. It is not in Daniel 9:27.
... for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
Are you saying Jesus is the Desolater of the temple?
So we have two choices in which to apply "he" to in Daniel 9:27.
Choice #1 - the prince who is to come.
Choice # 2 - Messiah the Prince
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .
- "he" shall make it desolate, by the abominations. - for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
I believe this scripture is referring to the prince who is to come, who is a ruler on earth during the 70 th week, just like the rulers on earth began and influenced the 70 weeks, starting with Cyrus.
God in heaven, initiated and influenced human rulers to began and and be involved in the 70 weeks.
The 70 th week has nothing what so ever to do with the year 70 AD.
JLB
Strong's Number: 08074
Original WordWord Origin
~mXa primitive root
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
ShamemTWOT - 2409
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
shaw-mame' Verb
Definition
- to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy
- (Qal)
- to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled
- to be appalled, be awestruck
- (Niphal)
- to be desolated, be made desolate
- to be appalled
- (Polel)
- to be stunned
- appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c
- horror-causer, appaller (subst)
- (Hiphil)
- to devastate, ravage, make desolated
- to appal, show horror
- (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated
- (Hithpolel)
- to cause to be desolate
- to be appalled, be astounded
- to cause oneself desolation, cause oneself ruin
- (Qal)
desolate 49, astonished 20, desolation 7, waste 5, destroy 3, wondered 2, amazed 1, astonishment 1, miscellaneous 4
Desolation does not mean destroy, as in the events of 70 AD.
Deb, your theology seems to apply the events of Daniel 9:27 to both the year 33 AD as well as the year 70 AD.
The events of verse 27 are associated with the end of the age, whereby Jesus destroys the lawless one [the prince who is to come] with the brightness of His Coming and gathers his people at the Resurrection.
Not the events of 70 AD.
JLB
I will try again...this is not easy to put into words... History tell us what happened around the time of 70 AD,,,, the physical destruction of Jerusalem.... i read/see that as a literal battle with the Roman solders ... I think we all agree it happened we differ in the whys of it?
Seeing it as the end of what i will call Temple worship the battle ground now becomes the world and we the solders .. The gospel has been opened to the world... ( sorta before worshiping the True God was mostly held with in the Children of Israel)
Sense that time9 70 ad) His angels/messengers have been spreading the gospel gathering His people form the four corners of this earth.
If i understand you correctly JLB you see this passage as sorta an end... i see it as a beginning...the beginnings of the church age.... that is not to say the church did not start before but this is still part of it..... down the lines of the idea The Children of Israel escaping Egypt . it was not a snap of the fingers deal.... birthing a child takes a while....
I believe this should answer your question... sure hope so...
I will try again...this is not easy to put into words... History tell us what happened around the time of 70 AD,,,, the physical destruction of Jerusalem.... i read/see that as a literal battle with the Roman solders ... I think we all agree it happened we differ in the whys of it?
Seeing it as the end of what i will call Temple worship the battle ground now becomes the world and we the solders .. The gospel has been opened to the world... ( sorta before worshiping the True God was mostly held with in the Children of Israel)
Sense that time9 70 ad) His angels/messengers have been spreading the gospel gathering His people form the four corners of this earth.
If i understand you correctly JLB you see this passage as sorta an end... i see it as a beginning...the beginnings of the church age.... that is not to say the church did not start before but this is still part of it..... down the lines of the idea The Children of Israel escaping Egypt . it was not a snap of the fingers deal.... birthing a child takes a while....
I believe this should answer your question... sure hope so...
Please answer the question.
Yes or No.
Do you believe this scripture pertains to 70 AD or the later at the end of the age, at the resurrection?
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
Did this scripture occur in 70 AD?
JLB
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
Do you believe this scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD?
This is not a difficult question.
Chopper
Member
I don't know if this helps, in my studying of Daniel 9:25 & 26 this is what I found. The promised restoration of God's people and sanctuary would come in three stages. The first "seven" sevens would run from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the time when that rebuilding was complete (perhaps 458 - 409 BC or 445 - 396) This period of restoration, along with the subsequent sixty-two sevens after the city had been rebuilt, would be a time of trouble. The messianic ruler would make his appearance at the end of these 69 sevens. Even the appearance of this "anointed one, a prince", would not immediately usher in the peace and righteousness that Jeremiah anticipated. Instead, the anointed one (Hb. mashiakh, from which Messiah is derived) would make Himself be cut off (v.26) Leaving him with nothing, surely a reference to the crucifixion of Christ. After the cutting off of the anointed one, "the people of the prince" who is to come would destroy Jersulem and its sanctuary. This "coming prince" would be a reference to the Roman general Titus, whose army destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD or is a reference to a future antichrist.
Ma'am
With all due respect, you avoided answering a very simple question.
If you want to keep avoiding my question by not answering, then that is your choice.
To me, you are defending a preterist doctrine without any real answers.
JLB
Sinthesis
Member
Jesus is the only Prince who was promised to Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus is Holy. Conversely, by rejecting Christ and His teaching, the Jewish temple had become a spiritual abomination which needed to be physically destroyed so as not to slander God.
For seven years Jesus and His disciples confirmed to many Jews that He was the Messiah whom the covenant had promised.
After the Cross, the scapegoat's thread never turned white to signify God accepted it on Israel's behalf for atonement. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable atonement.
The 70th week was from 26-33AD. The temple's destruction and failure to be rebuilt over the last two millennia are best understood in light of Jesus' bodily death and resurrection three days later.
And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
As of verse 26,
the Messiah was cut off: 33 AD
The city and sanctuary was destroyed: 70 AD
And yet the 70 the week has not yet begun!
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."Daniel 9:26-27
Now in verse 27, the events of the 70th week are displayed as beginning sometime after the year 70 AD.
JLB
Chopper
Member
Now I will give you Choppers argument that Daniel 9:27 will be fulfilled at the end of the church age, during the great trib. My argument in support of this position is if the first 69 weeks end with the death of Jesus, and if He comes back after the "seventieth week" to punish the "one who makes desolate", then there must be a gap or period of time between these weeks (namely, the entire church age). Often this gap is explained as the time when God is dealing with the church and not specifically Israel, and thus it is not part of the "seventy years". In the climactic seventieth week, the ruler (taken to be the antichrist) makes a "strong covenant" (treaty or alliance) "with many" (the Jewish people) for three and a half years and then puts "an end to sacrifice and offering" that he had allowed to be offered in a rebuilt temple (Rev. 11:1,2). The cutting off of the sacrifices will then usher in the second half of the "great trib." (Rev. 7:14; Matt. 24:21) because it will be an intense time of persecution. The final part of Dan. 9:27 sees a climactic abomination that causes the devastation final judgment decreed for the antichrist (the one who makes desolate).
Sinthesis
Member
The 70th week follows directly after the 69th week, or else it wouldn't be the 70th week.
I suppose one could say today we are in the 352nd week.
Or if you need to believe the '70th' week has yet to happen then we could be counting down hide-and-seek style at the 69-and-282/283rd week. Wait, that's silly because it would still put us beyond the 69th week, which is into the 70th week.
I suppose one could say today we are in the 352nd week.
Or if you need to believe the '70th' week has yet to happen then we could be counting down hide-and-seek style at the 69-and-282/283rd week. Wait, that's silly because it would still put us beyond the 69th week, which is into the 70th week.