[_ Old Earth _] Coccyx truth

brother Paul

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Ves·tig·i·al

adjective

  1. forming a very small remnant of something that was once much larger or more noticeable.
synonyms: remaining,

surviving, residual, leftover, lingering

  • In BIOLOGY
(of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution.

Thus, the coccyx is not a vestigial tail at all because

a) as far back as we can go this feature was never a tail, never atrophied, or “degenerated” from something longer. Even in the alleged earliest human species the coccyx is short, and


b) because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions. In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.

Gray's anatomy for students, Philadelphia, Elsevier/Churchill Livingstone, p. 423, tells us that the ganglia attached and supported there contribute to the innervation of the pelvic and genital organs. The nerves “regulate the emptying of the bladder, control the opening and closing of the internal urethral sphincter, motility in the rectum as well as sexual functions.” Thus they maintain their function.

Roberto Spiegelmann, Edgardo Schinder, Mordejai Mintz, and Alexander Blakstein, in "The human tail: a benign stigma," Journal of Neurosurgery, 63: 461-462 (1985) explain that “True human tails are rarely encountered in medicine. At the time when Darwin's theory of evolution was a matter of debate, hundreds of dubious cases were reported. The presence of a tail in a human being was considered by evolutionists as an example that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." But the theory that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny has been disproven in modern times. The main proponent of this notion was Ernst Heakel who had produced a document showing the similarity of embryos allegedly demonstrating that embryos represent a fish like stage of evolution. We know now that Heakel had perpetrated an intentional fraud, and that these drawings were enhanced to produce the illusion of support for the theory. The premise is not true. Ontogeny does not recapitulate phylogeny. The alleged “gills” are just fat folds on the embryo and all non-egg laying animal embryos receive their oxygen through the blood of the mother, and in no other way.

"Pseudotails" which are often found in other locations on the lower back, are obvious aberrations since they are often associated with anomalies (remember and do not be fooled, the exception is never the rule). What is considered a “true tail” (extending from the coccyx) is far more rare, and together (both kinds) have only been observed on around 100 occasions from among the many millions of births. Secondly, they are not even a real tail (they totally lack vertebrae). The Journal confirms this. In all studies done all these alleged tails lacked “…bone, cartilage, notochord, and spinal cord.”

According to Allan Joel Belzberg, Stanley Terence Myles, and Cynthia Lucy Trevenen, in "The Human Tail and Spinal Dysraphism," Journal of Pediatric Surgery, 26: 1243-1245 (October, 1991), these extremely rare genetic abnormalities in humans have no spinal cord at all. After many surgeries they have determined they are nothing more than a “central core of mature fatty tissue divided into small lobules by thin fibrous septa. Small blood vessels and nerve fibers are scattered throughout. Bundles of striated muscle fibers, sometimes degenerated, tend to aggregate in the center.” This is nothing like any tail we would commonly find on any kind of ape (or any other animal for that matter) and NEVER have found this to be present in any demonstrable ancient ancestor.

And as far as the more common yet still extremely rare pseudo-tail formation, according to Se-Hyuck Park, Jee Soon Huh, Ki Hong Cho, Yong Sam Shin, Se Hyck Kim, Young Hwan Ahn, Kyung Gi Cho, Soo Han Yoon, "Teratoma in Human Tail Lipoma," Pediatric Neurosurgery, 41:158-161 (2005), it “has no embryological relationship to human tail development, but is any variable abnormal caudal tail-like structure or protrusion." Nothing more…not a tail…not indicative of some remote unfounded assumption about the past, not a degeneration, nor is it atrophied…

If these phenomena were truly vestigial in nature we should expect to see at least some vestige of vertebrae or controllable movement but alas we do not. Science offers no demonstrable evidence at all that the human coccyx is anything more than what it is, and likewise demonstrates no evidence whatsoever that it ever was anything other than what it is now.

The entire alleged theory that it is a vestigial organ is a contrived myth (science fiction) based on the acceptance of the hypothesis alone. In the 2012 paper, “Spectrum of human tails: A report of six cases”, four out of the six of the alleged “tails” were higher in the lumbar region, and three of these babies sadly had spinal bifida, one had the appendage protruding from its buttock, and the another from the sacral region. And according to the report 5 out the six allegedly vestigial tails were not even connected to the spine.

Please stop brainwashing our children with this heinous fairytale. If you have been brainwashed by it please wake up now and simply look at the actual data and block the hypothesis based “interpretation” out of your thinking?
 
Your first error is to assume a dictionary definition of a technical term. In fact, "vestigial" does not mean "useless." And it's been that way since Darwin first discussed such organs:

An organ, serving for two purposes, may become rudimentary or utterly aborted for one, even the more important purpose, and remain perfectly efficient for the other.
Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, chapter XIV.

Let's see what else there is...

Thus, the coccyx is not a vestigial tail at all because

a) as far back as we can go this feature was never a tail, never atrophied, or “degenerated” from something longer. Even in the alleged earliest human species the coccyx is short, and

We only have to look at a human embryo to know that is false. At one point in our development we have 10-12 vertebrae in our tails. Later, they are absorbed and I think the normal human tail has only about 4 vertebrae. Some humans fail to reabsorb the tail and are born with true tails.

The true tail arises by retention of structures found normally in fetal development. It may be as long as 13 cm, can move and contract, and occurs twice as often in males as in females. A true tail is easily removed surgically, without residual effects. It is rarely familial.
Hum Pathol. 1984 May;15(5):449-53.
Human tails and pseudotails.
Dao AH, Netsky MG.


b) because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions.
In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.

That's a common myth, but it's false. Coccygeal agenesis is not uncommon, and unless the condition also involves part of the sacrum there are often no symptoms, and the condition is occasionally found through an incidental x-ray.

Significant neurological deficits are associated with the high sacral malformations, but isolated coccygeal agenesis is usually asymptomatic.
http://www.neurosurgery.tv/caudalagenesis.html

You've confused pseudotails with true tails. The arise very differently and are anatomically distinct.

If these phenomena were truly vestigial in nature we should expect to see at least some vestige of vertebrae or controllable movement but alas we do not.

See above. These tails are the result of the same genes that other animals have for tails, but some of them are inactivated in humans and other apes.

Science offers no demonstrable evidence at all that the human coccyx is anything more than what it is, and likewise demonstrates no evidence whatsoever that it ever was anything other than what it is now.

Wrong. Genetics, anatomy, and embryology show that the human coccyx is homologous with other vertebrate tails.

The entire alleged theory that it is a vestigial organ is a contrived myth

As you see, it is a true vestigial organ. As you just learned, "vestigial" does not mean "useless", although vestigial organs can be so.
 
Go back and re-read what the word means and stop getting hung up on misapplying the word "useless"....in the definition it does not mean ALL....that is only one situation or application just like Darwin implied. There is nothing vestigial about the coccyx only in the mind of those taught that it is who will not allow the real data (not the opinions of others who agree with them) to speak for itself. You know this is true even though I know you cannot admit it here.
 
So go ahead and repeat yourself and misrepresent all these others so you can get the last word so you can make the view that adds the hypothesis based presumption appear to be real..
 
Go back and re-read what the word means and stop getting hung up on misapplying the word "useless"....in the definition it does not mean ALL....

It merely fails to mention that the word does not mean "useless."

that is only one situation or application just like Darwin implied.

There are many such cases. The appendix in humans, for example, is no longer used to ferment plant material. It does produce some WBCs, and it is also a refuge for useful bacteria when the gut flora is challenged. It is not useless. Would you like to learn about some other examples?

To be fair, there are some examples of truly vestigial organs that are also useless. The wings of certain beetles that are now locked under fused elytra, for example.

There is nothing vestigial about the coccyx

It no longer serves as an organ of balance. In fact, most of it is absorbed by the body before birth. As you learned, most people born without one, never realize it.

only in the mind of those taught that it is who will not allow the real data (not the opinions of others who agree with them) to speak for itself. You know this is true even though I know you cannot admit it here.

I'm just showing you the data. As you see, it's not what you were told.
 
It no longer serves as an organ of balance. In fact, most of it is absorbed by the body before birth. As you learned, most people born without one, never realize it

No it is just that the premature brain and spinal column are large compared to the body in the embryonic stage

just showing you the data. As you see, it's not what you were told.

Really? You cannot see that you are giving data with a hypothesis based interpretation added to it? Fine! Then show me a fossil ancestor (even one of your potential Ape cousins) that are an example of our Anatomy complete with actual tails (and don't jump to monkeys as it is your point that we are not in that line)

I will accept fossil examples (so long as you show the real fossils) or you can admit (not part of the programming I know but it would be progress) THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE
 
Barbarian regarding the coccyx:
It no longer serves as an organ of balance. In fact, most of it is absorbed by the body before birth. As you learned, most people born without one, never realize it

No it is just that the premature brain and spinal column are large compared to the body in the embryonic stage

No. The tail in human and other ape embyros is largely removed by birth. The structure has 10-12 vertebrae before regressing later in development:
Embryology: During the 5th-6th week, the human embryo has a tail with 10 to 12 vertebrae. Then, it starts to regress, reducing the number of vertebrae by fusion, leaving the vestigial coccyx. By this process, at 8 weeks, it disappears, although the exact moment varies2. The persistent tail probably arises from the most distal non-vertebrate remnant of the embryonic tail2,3,4.
http://sonoworld.com/fetus/page.aspx?id=997

Barbarian observes:
Just showing you the data. As you see, it's not what you were told.


Yep. You cannot see that you are ignoring the actual data on the way tails develop in human embyros.

Then show me a fossil ancestor (even one of your potential Ape cousins) that are an example of our Anatomy complete with actual tails (and don't jump to monkeys as it is your point that we are not in that line)

Which is like saying we should find an ape with gills, because the evidence shows that all vertebrates evolved from animals with gills. C'mon.

THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE

If there was, science would have some explaining to do. Such structures, AFAIK, have never reappeared in a line that lost them. But I think you already know this.
 
No actual examples? Just couldn't admit it hey? But I knew that didn't I?

Which is like saying we should find an ape with gills, because the evidence shows that all vertebrates evolved from animals with gills. C'mon.

Not even remotely similar, and also no evidence for the last contrived historical narrative you have swallowed here...one thing preceding another in history does not necessitate one coming from the other or the former being the cause of the latter. Such imaginary thinking is fun but nonetheless a logical fallacy.

Such structures...have never reappeared in a line that lost them. But I think you already know this.

Since tails never existed in this line their "reappearance" was never a real factor! And I know you already know this.
 
(Paul challenges Barbarian to find something that evolutionary theory predicts should not be)

Barbarian chuckles:
Which is like saying we should find an ape with gills, because the evidence shows that all vertebrates evolved from animals with gills. C'mon.

Not even remotely similar

Exactly the same. You'd have to go back to the common ancestor of cercopthecines to find that. And of course, not apes. Similarly, we can't find any apes with gills, even though their ancestors also had gills. If either of these showed up in apes, then it would be a problem for evolutionary theory.

No actual examples?

Nope. It's another reason why scientists accept evolution. It's not just that everything is where it should be, it's also that nothing is where it shouldn't be.

But I knew that didn't I?

I kinda suspect that you did. It was a good try, though.
 
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