Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[Edward]

different subject.

It is pretty interesting that you wont answer one simple question!

Maybe I should not ask if you walk in faith?!

 

[Edward]

No its not far fetch, its truth,

But any doctrine or precept must agree with the entirety of the scriptures, right? So faith without works is a dead faith.

Faith must be followed with actions that are consistent with what is believed. Faith is the noun form and believe is the verb form of the same Greek word. Faith is the ability to believe, but that ability must be used and acted upon for faith to come alive and work. Believing is the action side of faith – believing is ‘acting in faith.’

That's how the scriptures are able to differentiate between faith, belief and actions. We all have faith as a gift, and it don't take much faith at all to move mountains, so Lord, help our unbelief.

So if you have zero works at all, please check your pulse, you may be dead.

 

[PeterJens]

Robert Harbach wrote:

If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!

Calvinism Unpopular But Right​

This article first appeared in the December 1966 issue of the Standard Bearer, vol.43, Issue 5. The religious and doctrinal outlook of this now beyond middle age twentieth century is not that of Calvinism or that of the Reformed Faith. It is rather that of an inclusivistic or syncretistic and...
www.prca.org

It is very easy to imply the meaning of a phrase as a logical step in a chain or as a reality in isolation. So if I say I have a car so can drive from my city to another, is the car mine, which makes it possible to travel? Yes. But if the car was a gift, without which I could not travel, does this invalidate the travel as being mine, because it was a gift.

The travel was by grace, given to me, without which I would be stranded. The act of travelling and using the gift is a work, something I must do, or else I am stranded and lost. To say using the gift, invalidates the gift is absurd. To not use the gift is the denial of its purpose and of the intension of the giver.

So if you put this into conditional language, the objective is to travel from one city to another, by means of the car. One is saved by the car alone, but without putting it into affect, ie. driving from one city to the other one is lost. Being saved by works in this context is building ones own car, and trying to drive it out of the city. Only the car provided by the Lord put into affect will deliver us.

Our concern is without putting faith into affect in ones life, one stays lost, nothing changes. And as Paul found, many claim faith but have no repentance so it is worthless. God bless you

 

[Edward]

It is very easy to imply the meaning of a phrase as a logical step in a chain or as a reality in isolation. So if I say I have a car so can drive from my city to another, is the car mine, which makes it possible to travel? Yes. But if the car was a gift, without which I could not travel, does this invalidate the travel as being mine, because it was a gift.

The travel was by grace, given to me, without which I would be stranded. The act of travelling and using the gift is a work, something I must do, or else I am stranded and lost. To say using the gift, invalidates the gift is absurd. To not use the gift is the denial of its purpose and of the intension of the giver.

So if you put this into conditional language, the objective is to travel from one city to another, by means of the car. One is saved by the car alone, but without putting it into affect, ie. driving from one city to the other one is lost. Being saved by works in this context is building ones own car, and trying to drive it out of the city. Only the car provided by the Lord put into affect will deliver us.

Our concern is without putting faith into affect in ones life, one stays lost, nothing changes. And as Paul found, many claim faith but have no repentance so it is worthless. God bless you

I agree completely. Let us all ask ourselves this question.
Do we have a response ability ? Do we owe God a response or, have a responsibility to respond to God in thanks for saving us?

Of course we do. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart all thine soul all thine mind and all thy strength. And if you Love Him you will keep His Commandments.

If I fell in a lake and a passerby gave me a hand out of the water, should I thank the man and shake his hand or not?

It's actually a no brainer!

 

[Hopeful]

It is very easy to imply the meaning of a phrase as a logical step in a chain or as a reality in isolation. So if I say I have a car so can drive from my city to another, is the car mine, which makes it possible to travel? Yes. But if the car was a gift, without which I could not travel, does this invalidate the travel as being mine, because it was a gift.

The travel was by grace, given to me, without which I would be stranded. The act of travelling and using the gift is a work, something I must do, or else I am stranded and lost. To say using the gift, invalidates the gift is absurd. To not use the gift is the denial of its purpose and of the intension of the giver.

So if you put this into conditional language, the objective is to travel from one city to another, by means of the car. One is saved by the car alone, but without putting it into affect, ie. driving from one city to the other one is lost. Being saved by works in this context is building ones own car, and trying to drive it out of the city. Only the car provided by the Lord put into affect will deliver us.

Our concern is without putting faith into affect in ones life, one stays lost, nothing changes. And as Paul found, many claim faith but have no repentance so it is worthless. God bless you

I was thinking along the same lines this morning.
If a man gives me the keys to his car, does that mean I can drive to Philly?
I can if I have had the training, tires, wheels, gasoline, maps, insurance, and probably a dozen more things.
I have been handed salvation in like manner.
But I still need to turn from sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, receive the gift of the holy Ghost, pray, read, study, witness, and endure to the end.
I may, perhaps, also be called to prophesy, teach, lead, or follow too.
And there is still that final judgement !
Salvation is a free gift, but it is not without cost.

 

[brightfame52]

peterjens

Our concern is without putting faith into affect in ones life, one stays lost, nothing changes.

Just like what I have been saying, this is salvation by your works

 

[Hopeful]

peterjens



Just like what I have been saying, this is salvation by your works

Nobody will be judged for our actions on earth but we ourselves.
If turning from sin, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, or enduring faithfully till the end is against the wishes of God...I will perish.
But I have no other way to obey Jesus' Mark 12:29-31 commandment..."Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as yourself" than to actually obey.
It is written..." And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Do you think your doctrine supplants Jesus' words?

 

[PeterJens]

peterjens



Just like what I have been saying, this is salvation by your works

Then we agree about a believer must put faith into action. You call this denial of Christ, while we call this following Jesus.

It is sometimes hard to see another's position and accept who they are. I am called not to judge just share.

The apostles put it in terms of seeing a brother in poverty and need. Saying God bless you is not love, actually helping them is. So saying one is saved through faith in Christ, amen, but without a heart acting in love pointless.

Dealing with guilt with ideas is very different from brokenness and change. We have to lose our lives here to gain them eternally. God bless you

 

[JLB]

Is making a decision a work ?

Yes to make a decision is a work, no not a physical activity you do with say your hands, arms, legs or body muscles and mass, but a mental work, labor. Lets take for instance a person who may be on a sodium restriction, and they're in a grocery store about to buy a can of soup. They observe many different soup labels on the shelf, so they began to read the nutrition contents as it pertains to sodium. They see a can with the label reading 110 mg sodium, a can reading 220 mg sodium, and one reading 550 mg sodium, which can of soup should they purchase ? To say the least a decision has to be made. How is that decision derived ? You must think, consider , weigh the pros and cons, which all are mental activities of the mind, its mental work, it takes mental exertion effort to do this. Now so it is when its being taught that a person , in order to get saved, they must make a decision for Christ !

Are you promoting the idea that everyone is saved?


How does a person become saved if there is no action of believing on their part?

Are people already saved at birth?


Please explain using scripture so we can all understand.





JLB

 

[Titus]

peterjens



Just like what I have been saying, this is salvation by your works

I want you and all to consider a reminder from paul , WHO had been born again .
FOR NOW is our SALVATION NEARER than when we FIRST believed .
Let that line sink in real deep .
And then remember this , He or she who endures to the end shall be saved .

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

How does a person become saved if there is no action of believing on their part?

By the Grace of God, the blood of Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

By the Grace of God, the blood of Christ.

Let us be biblical about salvation.

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:9-11

Paul is declaring the central connection between our believing in our hearts and outwardly being a witness to this with our mouths.

Interpretation of this could be at any point in your life if this is true, it does not matter if you later fall away and deny Christ. The answer to this argument is the faith and confession were not real so gaining life did not happen so those that fall away never truly came to faith. Or the person is eternally spirit saved, though the flesh has led them to death.

The Lord in His language puts things another way.

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.
Ezek 33:13

What is most important is love dwelling in our hearts, and truth reigning in our lives. It is always possible to go back to the world and live like the world in its ways, but love shows its life in resisting this and walking after Jesus.

 

[JLB]

jlb



By the Grace of God, the blood of Christ.

Jesus Christ shed His blood for all the world, yet we know that all the world is not saved.

How does the blood of Jesus and the grace of God benefit a person if they don’t hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


People are saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.


Do you agree or disagree?




JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of.

9

For me this thread contains the same ominous spirit that existed that day in the synagogue when the Pharisees " watched Him" to see if they could catch Jesus performing a work?
A work worthy of boasting whether Jesus would admit it or not .
A work that would violate God's Word that they might accuse Him:

Mar 3:2
"And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him."

The accusatory tone of the thread being undeniably something less than Divinely inspired in my perception .

 

[JLB]

For me this thread contains the same ominous spirit that existed that day in the synagogue when the Pharisees " watched Him" to see if they could catch Jesus performing a work?
A work worthy of boasting whether Jesus would admit it or not .
A work that would violate God's Word that they might accuse Him:

Mar 3:2
"And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him."

The accusatory tone of the thread being undeniably something less than Divinely inspired in my perception .

Could you explain further, what you mean by accusatory tone?


Do you understand that brightfame52 believes that people are saved before they hear and believe the Gospel?


If that what you believe?




JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Could you explain further, what you mean by accusatory tone?

JLB

For me the thread's attached expression :
".. salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not,"
: is clear indication that what is being alleged is something that the author believes the people would not want to "admit".
For contrarily negative scriptural reasons according to their biblical understanding no less.

 

[GodsGrace]

For me the thread's attached expression :
".. salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not,"
: is clear indication that what is being alleged is something that the author believes the people would not want to "admit".
For contrarily negative scriptural reasons according to their biblical understanding no less.

Agreed 100%
No Christian believes they are saved by nothing but the grace of God.

God offers the salvation, and we respond yes or no of our own free will.

This response is not a work but is the grace of God that saves us.

We cannot save ourselves.

brightfame52 , being of the reformed faith, believes that man is totally depraved and thus UNABLE to respond with a Yes, unless God so prefestinated him to do so.

IOW, man has no free will.

 

[Edward]

IOW, man has no free will.

So we have a blank check to sin with no accountability seems to be his premise.

He hasn't rightly said though. Neither was there an admission to any good works and yet he doesn't really converse with anybody, just keeps repeating what he believes, so take that FWIW.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So we have a blank check to sin with no accountability seems to be his premise.

That would be a " premise " contrary to every child of God in scripture who ever attempted to cash such a check, and had it made null and void by God .
David for instance:
" Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house.."
(2 Samuel 12:10)

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus Christ shed His blood for all the world, yet we know that all the world is not saved.

How does the blood of Jesus and the grace of God benefit a person if they don’t hear and believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


People are saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.


Do you agree or disagree?

Agreed, but that isn't the end of it. If we "believe", we will also turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
And we will faithfully endure till the end.