Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[JLB]

Amen, Jesus did say that. And so your point ?

Our work is to believe.


JLB

 

[Edward]

Amen, Jesus did say that. And so your point ?

I think what it comes down to is, knowledge without action is nothing, certainly not faith. With the seed of God within you...how could you not bear the fruit of good works in your actions? As is written, be not a hearer only of the Word but rather be a doer.


When we get born again and now have a new spirit within us and the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths so we don't sit down and say, no works, That is a huge blessing for us, so we bless others who need help too.

How much is that blessing worth? 10 Talents? 5 Talents? 1 Talent? The parable of the Talents teaches us to use what He has gave us. Did you make 10 more Talents? Did you bury your Talent and plan on giving it back to the Lord without being a profitable servant?? (Uh-oh), I don't want to be an unprofitable servant!

I can't comprehend how any Spirit filled Christian can chant no works no works. What's with that?! I'm like, Here I am Lord, send me. What a privilege and an honor to be used for God's purposes through good works! Praise the Lord!

 

[brightfame52]

Our work is to believe.


JLB

No its Gods work that the elect believe, you are conditioning salvation on your work. Thats what this thread is warning about.

Jn 6:29 says " This is the work of God" that ye believe, not the work for God, that ye believe:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God here is in the genitive case, meaning its Gods work, God owns the work, that they believe on Christ whom He sent.

Now if you insist that its the sinners work to do, and after the sinner does it, God gives them eternal life, then you insist that eternal life is conditioned on the sinners work.

 

[brightfame52]

edward

I think what it comes down to is, knowledge without action is nothing, certainly not faith. With the seed of God within you...how could you not bear the fruit of good works in your actions?

Good works come after one is saved Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is a creation work of God, solely His workmanship alone, then following that are good works, and even those are based upon His predestination to walk in.

Salvation is unto good works and not because of good works. May God give you understanding to know the difference.

 

[JLB]

No its Gods work that the elect believe, you are conditioning salvation on your work. Thats what this thread is warning about.

Unfortunately for your “doctrine” Jesus plainly states otherwise.


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

• This is the work of God, that you believe…

Now if Jesus said this is the work of God that God believes, then you would have a point. Since He didn’t say that, but rather the work of God is for you to believe, your theory falls apart.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Good works come after one is saved Eph 2:10

Yes, agreed.


However one must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be saved.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17




JLB

 

[Edward]

Now if you insist that its the sinners work to do, and after the sinner does it, God gives them eternal life, then you insist that eternal life is conditioned on the sinners work.

I believe you have this slightly wrong. Getting born again is like meeting a new friend. You say hi, and then maybe something like ok Lord I'm sorry for my sins please save me and reveal your self to me that I can know you are real...

That is but a very small thing and one would have to be paraplegic to put any significance on that working even to natural man.

But at that point it is a new friendship so what to do? You go visit Him and talk with Him and develop a working trust and relationship.

You don't go sit down in the chair and say no I don't want to do anything or hang out cuz that's too much like work,,,

That's some job ethics right there bro.

 

[Golgotha]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You might be misunderstanding them or that believer.

Romans 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:18In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I believe the Father drew us unto the Son and reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him; hence our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of the Father for why no one can boast that they saved themselves by obeying the gospel.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why then did David not lose "eternal life" in his failure to obey in his murdering, Lying, & adultery according to the quote you give, "John3:36 NASB "?
David already BELIEVING that murdering, lying, adultery are acts God commands us to refrain from, how then would committing murder, lying, adultery not be contradictory acts of failure to obey committed against what is already believed ?
Based upon David's own well documented deceitful efforts to conceal his disobedience He knew without a doubt he had violated what he BELIEVED what was incumbent upon him to OBEY .
Actually in David's case it was worse than just a mere failure to obey .
He actually " despised ". what he believed was incumbent upon him through belief to obey .
" Wherefore hast thou DESPISED the commandment of the Lord,
to do evil in His sight,"
( 2 Samuel 12:9 )

They are not synonymous.
If they were you could name someone in scripture who " BELIEVED IN CHRIST" yet lost eternal life by failure to OBEY ?
I've never seen that pointed out, and I don't believe you can do so either.
Merry Christmas, Conscecrated Life

Didn't David write most of the psalms?
Sounds like he might have
Persons that believed in christ and became lost?
Judas
Ananaius
Sophia
Any disciple that left after considering the cost

Maybe since the writers concentrated on the teachings of Jesus and not on who left Him, it means no one did?

This would be a new and awful way of studying scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

No its Gods work that the elect believe, you are conditioning salvation on your work. Thats what this thread is warning about.

Jn 6:29 says " This is the work of God" that ye believe, not the work for God, that ye believe:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God here is in the genitive case, meaning its Gods work, God owns the work, that they believe on Christ whom He sent.

Now if you insist that its the sinners work to do, and after the sinner does it, God gives them eternal life, then you insist that eternal life is conditioned on the sinners work.

Yes, Brightfame
Certainly belief must be a work.
Since it is GOD that forces us to believe it MUST be true, or your entire belief system falls apart.

You have brought the Word of God to the height of ridiculousness,,,,going against everything written about faith just to suit your doctrinal beliefs...which are heretical BTW.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Because he repented and was forgiven.





JLB

Exactly, he repented of his disobedience, not of his belief.
His belief being a completely separate issue and not being " synonymous " at all with his obedience as you have claimed:

"Believe and obey are synonymous in the original language." ( JLB )

Thus no need for David to repent of his belief , while his disobedience demanded his repentance.
They are two completely different components of our spirituality .

 

[Golgotha]

Consecrated Life JLB Edward

Belief in Jesus Christ for salvation is repenting from unbelief.

Romans 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:18In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I believe the Father drew us unto the Son and reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him; hence our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of the Father for why no one can boast that they saved themselves by obeying the gospel.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So works has nothing to do with salvation, but it is profitable unto men to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lays aside every weight & sin for that high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 2:10-21

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Believers should hope in the Lord Jesus Christ to help them live that reconcile relationship with God and not put it off because He will be coming soon as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride in Christ.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Consecrated Life JLB Edward

Belief in Jesus Christ for salvation is repenting from unbelief.

The context of my conversation if you are going to contribute, was
David, already being a believer, repenting from his disobedience .
Your comment directed to me :

"Belief in Jesus Christ for salvation is repenting from unbelief." (Golgatha)

: is off topic and has no relevance to the subject, which is David as an active longstanding believer repenting from his disobedience.

 

[Golgotha]

For me the pairing of " obeyed " with " believed " when making application to salvation
is like pairing apples with oranges.
They are nowhere near the same
I have never heard someone say they were saved after they "obeyed"
From your statement I am assuming you have heard someone make that claim?
What exactly did they claim obedience too ?

The context of my conversation if you are going to contribute, was
David, already being a believer, repenting from his disobedience .
Your comment directed to me :

"Belief in Jesus Christ for salvation is repenting from unbelief." (Golgatha)

: is off topic and has no relevance to the subject, which is David as an active longstanding believer repenting from his disobedience.

It is not off topic when it is broached even by you in this discussion & by others in the progress of the discussion about Christian believers in regards to obeying the gospel and what that obedience entails.

Your topic about David was added into the discussion later on. One can say that topic is off topic since he was not a Christian believer in regards to obeying the gospel.

So I was sharing with you from what you & others were discussing earlier in respect to the thread and the progress to that discussion from that OP.

Have a nice day, brother.

 

[Golgotha]

Our work is to believe.


JLB

And with faith being a fruit of the Spirit which are by Jesus Christ, this can be deem as Jesus continuing to enable us to believe & hope in Him for how we are following Him by faith.

Since the Father drew us unto the Son John 6:44 as the Father reveals His Son to us for how we can believe in Him Matthew 11:25-27, then one can say our believing in Jesus Christ is a work or manifestation of God as well per John 3:18-21.

So I can understand why no one can boast in the flesh in His Presence when we get to Heaven as all the glory of us being there is thanks to God the Father in Jesus's name.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many tell us that in order to get saved you must accept Christ, now understand, if we call ourselves accepting Christ to get saved, that would be a work, since its an action we do. The word for work ergon:

1. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So accepting Christ is an act on our part. But the scripture teaches Salvation without works See Eph 2:8-9; 2 Tim 1:9

Yes, if we must perform any act to get, or keep salvation, its no longer salvation by grace, but of works. 458

The WCF teaches that we must work to KEEP our salvation.

Do you make up your own rules??

... The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law; and, not under grace.

7. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It is not off topic when it is broached even by you in this discussion & by others in the progress of the discussion about Christian believers in regards to obeying the gospel and what that obedience entails.

Your topic about David was added into the discussion later on. One can say that topic is off topic since he was not a Christian believer in regards to obeying the gospel

You err in dismissing David's relevance to belief in Christ.
David was a pre-Calvary believer in Jesus & His Gospel .
And Jesus testified to both to David's Gospel belief and David's prophesizing of His Birth , Death, Resurrection :

"

Luk 20:42
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

All David's honored believing and prophesizing given independent of his obedience issues .
Obedience issues which God delt with completely apart from David's enduring faith .

Kind Regards.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Didn't David write most of the psalms?
Sounds like he might have
Persons that believed in christ and became lost?
Judas
Ananaius
Sophia
Any disciple that left after considering the cost

Maybe since the writers concentrated on the teachings of Jesus and not on who left Him, it means no one did?

This would be a new and awful way of studying scripture.

You need to define " believed " for the purpose of these individuals you have listed .
Judas may have "believed" that Jesus was capable of performing supernatural acts, but then so did the scribes, the Pharisees, and King Herod .
You don't think they were believers as well do you ?
We further know that Judas was not a believer since we have Jesus's own word that Judas was spiritually open to becoming demon possessed , Not by a demon mind you, but by Satan himself.
Something that could never happen to a Holy Spirit filled Christian.

"

Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."

I fully expect to meet Ananias and Sapphira one day, my sins and their sins notwithstanding.
I am confident I will never meet Judas .

 

[Golgotha]

You err in dismissing David's relevance to belief in Christ.
David was a pre-Calvary believer in Jesus & His Gospel .
And Jesus testified to both to David's Gospel belief and David's prophesizing of His Birth , Death, Resurrection :

"

Luk 20:42
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

All David's honored believing and prophesizing given independent of his obedience issues .
Obedience issues which God delt with completely apart from David's enduring faith .

Kind Regards.

But David wasn't saved until Jesus had descended into Abraham's bosom aka Paradise to preach the gospel to him so he and other O.T. saints can be saved whereby upon His resurrection & ascension, they & Paradise itself was brought up to God in Heaven.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ..........

Ephesians 4: 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So now Paradise aka Abraham's bosom is located in Heaven since His ascension per Paul testifying "indirectly" about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Granted David was a believer believing in the promise of Christ to come but until He had, his faith only awarded him Abraham's bosom aka Paradise. David wasn't saved yet until he actually believed in Jesus Christ for Christ to be able to bring David to God in Heaven until after His ascension.

 

[Consecrated Life]

But David wasn't saved until Jesus had descended into Abraham's bosom aka Paradise to preach the gospel to him so he and other O.T. saints can be saved whereby upon His resurrection & ascension, they & Paradise itself was brought up to God in Heaven.

David's belief & assurance of his salvation in Jesus was dependent on God's antecedent Promise alone, given long before he was born .
He was just as sure as you or me.
His assurance had nothing to do with time spent in Abraham's bosom.
God's Promise is the Gospel .
There was no withholding of His eternally assured Salvation and Divine Love to the Old Testament Saints .
David was every bit as assured of his salvation as you or me and he believed so .


"

Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: "