Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[JLB]

A believer can be faithful, and have faithfulness because of the fruit of faith, but anyway...

That is how & why I believe the KJV has it right.

Ok.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. You make some good points.



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

What does the one have to do with the other?

Nothing, as I was responding to two different topics you presented.

Abraham, isaac, and Jacob were alive.

Agreed...and in heaven...so the doors had been opened.

As to Luke, I don't argue this point.
And maybe, just maybe, those that know everything about the bible might know a bit more than we do. At least on some topics.

I don't recall mentioning Luke.
And I imagine some "scholars" don't know much at all.

 

[Hopeful]

I disagree and leave that truth to be seen in the scripture to Jesus help you see it.

OK.

So who was Paul talking about if not the apostle John & the Book of Revelations? 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

It doesn't matter, or Paul would have named him.

Just because "Biblical scholars" assume when any Book in the N.T. was written and that is their guess by the earliest "surviving" manuscripts, it does not mean there were no earlier ones back in the very days when His disciples & Paul had lived. Those who loved Him would use His words, wear manuscripts out, for why newer copies were needed to be made to replace them.

I don't feel that God would allow anything really important to disappear.

 

[brightfame52]

What is clear is it is easy to confuse the meaning of words, salvation, action, effort.
If we are new creations born of the Holy Spirit through grace and the word of God, it is meaningless to say works create such a thing. Either one is born of the Holy Spirit or not.

Paul emphasises the foundation upon which we build, is our choice.
Jesus makes things slightly more confusing, implying without following and obeying we will be destroyed by lifes pressures.

I have shared with folk who sincerely believe they know Jesus but deny love in their hearts. In their view the heart is desperately wicked and nothing good can ever be planted within. The unfortunate thing is this belief is denying Jesus cleansing and transformation, which is what being born of God is all about.

Faith says wherever we are, God can reach and transform us. Yes we have anger, desires and deep hurts and behaviour that is destructive, but if we open the door and repent, this will change. We are not defined by our sins and our past, but by Jesus and our walk with Him. And it does seem impossible, because who we are seems to be everything we know, except to die to this, and open to Jesus is rebirth and the first steps of a new life. We are not our own, but part of Christs body, in which He is working out His salvation. God bless you

I dont know what you talking about here, I see no relevance to my post comments.

 

[GodsGrace]

Error.

What is the error in Edward 's post?

 

[JLB]

Error.

Not a good idea to post something like this as a response to another persons post, especially a post that is mostly scripture and is biblically sound. Please explain what it is you feel is an error about this members post.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont know what you talking about here, I see no relevance to my post comments.

PeterJens is making some sound Christian comments.

1. If a person does not have love in their heart, they are far from God.

2. If we are born of the Holy Spirit by GRACE, it is not biblical to state that we are saved by works. We are saved by grace, through the instrument of Our Faith, and this Not of our Works...NOT of ANY work,,,,
Faith is not a work.
See Eph 2.8

3. We are to open ourselves to Jesus for our rebirth.

4. He brings up Matthew 7 where Jesus gives to Us the Choice to build on Him or to build on the sand. We have a CHOICE, given to us by Jesus.

The other poster might be a little difficult to understand at first because he speaks from the heart and some do not. You'll get used to him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing, as I was responding to two different topics you presented.

Agreed...and in heaven...so the doors had been opened.

I don't recall mentioning Luke.
And I imagine some "scholars" don't know much at all.

Let's just drop this convo since it seems to be a misunderstanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well as long as you know that, then you may be readily to accept with His help that the Book of Revelation was written before the Book of 2 Corinthians.

I don't agree but this is a matter of little importance.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Verses 2 & 4 is Paul knowing the apostle John and about those unspeakable words that s not lawful for man to utter for why it has to be the Book of Revelation for how can he know about the warning in the Book about adding to His words or taking away from His words regarding that book?

Therefore since we are reading the second epistle to the Corinthians for which Paul is writing this, Paul had knowledge of the apostle John's trip to Heaven and that Book of Revelation for he must have read that Book for him to say such a thing about it.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So I do not believe john procrastinated in writing that Book of Revelation for why Paul had knowledge of his trip to heaven and the words John was to write that it was not lawful for any man to utter.

Maybe that reference in Revelation helps you see why I believe the way that I do. Course, only the Lord van help you see the truth in His words as He did for me so I hope He will cause the increase soon if not later.

John did not procrastinate. He was already about 90 years old and had some things that he wanted to be preserved in writing.

It is acceptable Christian thought that in 2 cor 12 Paul was speaking about himself. He even states that he did not mean to boast in these very same verses. Sorry I can't post them right now.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB & Consecrated Life

I cannot see how you guys nor Modern bibles render faith in the KJV to be faithfulness when in light of the other fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

For faith to be faithfulness, why is it not written as...

22 But the abiding believer is loving, joyful, peaceful, suffering long, gentle unto others, displaying goodness, faithfulness, 23 being in meekness, and always in self control, against such there is no law. ????

This is about the fruits of the Spirit, not the believer to know he or she is abiding in Him.

It is about the believer in how we either sow to either the works of the flesh whereby there is that consequence of not inheriting the kingdom of God or to the fruits of the Spirit for why they will have an inheritance as the fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ as our confidence is in Him to finish that race in us to His glory.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

I do not see it as faithfulness as a fruit of the Spirit in that verse, but I do see how it can be just faith as one of those fruits listed as it seems to align with the other kinds of fruits of the Spirit.

A believer can be faithful, and have faithfulness because of the fruit of faith, but anyway...

That is how & why I believe the KJV has it right.

Is faith a gift?
Eph 2:8

If so, how could it also be a fruit that comes After we are saved?

Faith is needed to Be saved.

 

[PeterJens]

I dont know what you talking about here, I see no relevance to my post comments.

I am making a distinction between between what happens when the Lord works in our lives and how it shows in our actions.

I have noticed a problem in the proposition that salvation is conditional or not conditional. Perspective is everything. When a car is driven across a bridge, do we ask whether the driver can choose to drive off the bridge or not, affects whether they are actually crossing the bridge or not?

Clearly a driver with access to the brake and steering could drive off a bridge or at least try to, or wreck the car. One problem when talking about ideas and perceptions, spiritual and emotional experiences, they are experienced by individuals alone, and can be described to third parties using words. So we can be using the same words but actually be talking about very different things and approaches.

Jesus pointed this out about the Saducees and Pharisees of his time. They knew the law and what was a good way to live, yet failed to live it, and where consumed with greed and selfish ambition. Jesus wanted people to know the Father and walk in His ways full of love.

I have known too many who know the words but not the reality, who see themselves in one way and others in another, without realising we are the same before Jesus.
So revelation from within to without is reality in Him, and without this we have nothing. In conditional terms you could say without this reality, nothing has successfully taken place. The parable of the seed and the sower summarises this, that without allowing Gods word to bring forth its fruit in our lives, we have not fulfilled Gods intention or His gospel.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Heresy

A straw man is to construct an image which you then destroy to show a problem in a position. But this approach fails if the straw man does not represent something useful.

I have discussed with folk the idea we are saved by grace alone, and if we are involved in any response, good works, a changed attitude that is earning salvation so therefore unbelief and saving oneself from the penalty of sin.

The problem is groups are often talking about a different view of what a person is, physically and spiritually and what salvation brings. Some become gnostic, believing the flesh being totally evil, and the spiritual eternal and rebirth as the beginning of this eternal reality which never can be lost. Such debates become meaningless because if you make ones definition of salvation and eternity based on such a model, then suggesting anything you do on earth makes any difference becomes heresy and wrong, when it detracts from faith in Jesus's work.

Jesus for me saves us all, flesh, soul and spirit. The flesh is transformed into an eternal body, while on earth our flesh though weak, is not evil, but needs direction and inspiration. It is the cross and Jesus's sacrifice for us which is our transforming power through the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Pauls aspiration was to present believers perfect in Jesus before the Father at the end of their lives.

Paul continuously talked about how to behave, feel and act towards others, what to centre ones heart and mind on, how to express ones heart in praise to Jesus and the Father, to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh. And through this all the transforming nature of this walk and process that never stopped.

Now those taking a gnostic view will hate this suggestion, but then that is what it is.
God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Now understand, . If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the work of man, or the productions of natural man’s own efforts, then his salvation is the fruit of his own labour , his work,

However If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the gifts of God of His grace, then it is absurd , to consider them as conditions on the part of man and then his salvation is of grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Not a good idea to post something like this as a response to another persons post, especially a post that is mostly scripture and is biblically sound. Please explain what it is you feel is an error about this members post.





JLB

I have already explained myself in my posts.

 

[Edward]

Now understand, . If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the work of man, or the productions of natural man’s own efforts, then his salvation is the fruit of his own labour , his work,

However If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the gifts of God of His grace, then it is absurd , to consider them as conditions on the part of man and then his salvation is of grace.

Ok. But what point are you making and why?

 

[Edward]

I have already explained myself in my posts.

Pretty sure you skipped several of my posts where I asked you good questions.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok. But what point are you making and why?

Ed
He's making the point that faith is a work and not a gift.

In reformed (calvinist) theology it becomes necessary that faith be a work because they believe that God CAUSES absolutely everything to happen, that God has predestined EVERYTHING, including who will be saved, and, based on Nothing At All except that God CHOSE who will be saved.

So...
They must say faith is a work because if it is OUR faith that saves us, it takes glory away from God. And it makes faith null since works cannot save us.

 

[Edward]

Ed
He's making the point that faith is a work and not a gift.

In reformed (calvinist) theology it becomes necessary that faith be a work because they believe that God CAUSES absolutely everything to happen, that God has predestined EVERYTHING, including who will be saved, and, based on Nothing At All except that God CHOSE who will be saved.

So...
They must say faith is a work because if it is OUR faith that saves us, it takes glory away from God. And it makes faith null since works cannot save us.

That is what it sounds like he's saying sorta.
Just for the sake of discussion though, Ok I don't want want works based salvation, I have seen the light (sic)...so what now? Do I make sure that I never do any good works? Is that the direction this is going?

Let's back up some. The Lord has saved me and I have been born again, Praise the Lord!! I feel this gratitude within me and a huge sense of Thanksgiving...nothing I could do could ever repay the Lord for what He has done for me, nevertheless, Lord, that I may do something, anything no matter how small for the Kingdom? Just a token of my gratitude and appreciation towards the Lord?

Who doesn't have it in their heart to want to do good unto others just as Jesus has done for us?

Unless I'm missing the mans point? Is he really saying don't go out and do any good works?!

Preposterous!

 

[JLB]

That is what it sounds like he's saying sorta.
Just for the sake of discussion though, Ok I don't want want works based salvation, I have seen the light (sic)...so what now? Do I make sure that I never do any good works? Is that the direction this is going?

Let's back up some. The Lord has saved me and I have been born again, Praise the Lord!! I feel this gratitude within me and a huge sense of Thanksgiving...nothing I could do could ever repay the Lord for what He has done for me, nevertheless, Lord, that I may do something, anything no matter how small for the Kingdom? Just a token of my gratitude and appreciation towards the Lord?

Who doesn't have it in their heart to want to do good unto others just as Jesus has done for us?

Unless I'm missing the mans point? Is he really saying don't go out and do any good works?!

Preposterous!

It's necessary to understand that he believes we are born again first, Sovereignly by God, then later we now have the ability to believe the Gospel.


JLB