Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[GodsGrace]

That is what it sounds like he's saying sorta.
Just for the sake of discussion though, Ok I don't want want works based salvation, I have seen the light (sic)...so what now? Do I make sure that I never do any good works? Is that the direction this is going?

Let's back up some. The Lord has saved me and I have been born again, Praise the Lord!! I feel this gratitude within me and a huge sense of Thanksgiving...nothing I could do could ever repay the Lord for what He has done for me, nevertheless, Lord, that I may do something, anything no matter how small for the Kingdom? Just a token of my gratitude and appreciation towards the Lord?

Who doesn't have it in their heart to want to do good unto others just as Jesus has done for us?

Unless I'm missing the mans point? Is he really saying don't go out and do any good works?!

Preposterous!

No.
This is not what he's saying.
He believes in doing good works.
For calvinists this is a sign that they are really saved.

What he's stating is that Faith is a Work.

Answer this:
Is faith a work, or is it grace?

 

[PeterJens]

No.
This is not what he's saying.
He believes in doing good works.
For calvinists this is a sign that they are really saved.

What he's stating is that Faith is a Work.

Answer this:
Is faith a work, or is it grace?

Faith is a gift of God, a revelation of God. While saying this everyone who asks receives. Paul emphasised that unbelievers know God through creation yet choose to ignore Him.

The problem with a total depravity position is no sinner could ever know of God and repent unless chosen. This means only the elect know, but where is guilt or justice then? Love opens the door, speaks to ears, shows the depths of eternity, and yet still hearts are cold, and ears closed. God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Acts 16:30-32

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

What the answer the jailer received simply shows is, the saved believe. He was not told to ‘Believe, and then you will be saved or get saved’. He was not told that his act of believing is what his salvation is reliant upon. He was merely told that the saved believe, and the rest of Scripture shows that this believing is a gift from God, and not something which can be self-induced by man. Salvation does not wait upon your believing, but on the grace of God. All a man can be told is believe and you will be saved. However, far from implying that salvation is conditioned on a man’s believing, all these words are saying is that only the man who believes will be saved. The man who has eternal life is the man who believes. The gift of eternal life is present only in the man who believes. The gift comes first, then the believing. Salvation is not by works, it is not by your belief, it is by the grace of God through the gift of faith. Grace gives faith to the man who has been chosen by God to believe. Believing is not a ‘Do this and you will then be/get saved’ proposition, for believing is a gift from God to the one He has chosen to save. Faith is given before belief, so that one will believe. One cannot savingly believe before grace gives the gift of faith. One cannot believe without the gift of faith being given first, just as one cannot be saved without grace. https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-22

 

[jaybo]

It's necessary to understand that he believes we are born again first, Sovereignly by God, then later we now have the ability to believe the Gospel.


JLB

If that's what he believes then I believe he is wrong. How can anyone believe if they haven't heard the gospel first? I recommend reading the parable of the sower in Luke 8.

Beyond that example, why are the gospels filled with examples of people believing what they heard?

 

[Edward]

No.
This is not what he's saying.
He believes in doing good works.
For calvinists this is a sign that they are really saved.

What he's stating is that Faith is a Work.

Answer this:
Is faith a work, or is it grace?

Oh I see. It still seems like a very skewed perspective.

But, Faith is a grace given to man. Everybody got the measure of faith.

But ones faith can be increased through what I suppose can be construed as work. Scripture says, there are several types of faith. It speaks of, ye of little faith, those of great faith, and so forth. So if everyone got the same measure but now some have grown it into a great faith. So faith can be increased.

How do you increase faith? Scripture says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That means we increase faith by hearing the voice of God speak to us (and then of course, obeying!).

God speaks to us all day long with His still small voice. But most times it is ignored by us. Just a thought I had he said. But it was God. If one spends enough time in the presence of the Lord by reading His word and praying then the Lord will turn up the volume some so it's easier to hear Him. Actually I think it would be a quickening of the spirit.

A quickening of the spirit is when you feel something in your gut to be true or whatever.

 

[Edward]

But I think that doing good works of faith is not work. It's called being alive!

 

[GodsGrace]

But I think that doing good works of faith is not work. It's called being alive!

I agree.
After coming to know God, I'd say what we do is for His glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh I see. It still seems like a very skewed perspective.

But, Faith is a grace given to man. Everybody got the measure of faith.

But ones faith can be increased through what I suppose can be construed as work. Scripture says, there are several types of faith. It speaks of, ye of little faith, those of great faith, and so forth. So if everyone got the same measure but now some have grown it into a great faith. So faith can be increased.

How do you increase faith? Scripture says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That means we increase faith by hearing the voice of God speak to us (and then of course, obeying!).

God speaks to us all day long with His still small voice. But most times it is ignored by us. Just a thought I had he said. But it was God. If one spends enough time in the presence of the Lord by reading His word and praying then the Lord will turn up the volume some so it's easier to hear Him. Actually I think it would be a quickening of the spirit.

A quickening of the spirit is when you feel something in your gut to be true or whatever.

Good point.
Never thought of the Romans verse in this way.

 

[Butch5]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Butch5]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You set up a strawman, as if works were a bad thing. God said to Israel, 'I have set before you life and death, choose life that you and your family may live'. That necessitates a choice before the may have life. Thus God put prerequisites on gaining life. Thus you're argument is void.

 

[brightfame52]

Is making a decision a work ?

Yes to make a decision is a work, no not a physical activity you do with say your hands, arms, legs or body muscles and mass, but a mental work, labor. Lets take for instance a person who may be on a sodium restriction, and they're in a grocery store about to buy a can of soup. They observe many different soup labels on the shelf, so they began to read the nutrition contents as it pertains to sodium. They see a can with the label reading 110 mg sodium, a can reading 220 mg sodium, and one reading 550 mg sodium, which can of soup should they purchase ? To say the least a decision has to be made. How is that decision derived ? You must think, consider , weigh the pros and cons, which all are mental activities of the mind, its mental work, it takes mental exertion effort to do this. Now so it is when its being taught that a person , in order to get saved, they must make a decision for Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

You set up a strawman, as if works were a bad thing. God said to Israel, 'I have set before you life and death, choose life that you and your family may live'. That necessitates a choice before the may have life. Thus God put prerequisites on gaining life. Thus you're argument is void.

My post point still stands.

 

[Butch5]

My post point still stands.

It doesn't. You're making a claim that is clearly anti biblical. God clearly told them to choose. That means there is a perquisite.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why won't you speak to me?

Look what you wrote:
Ephesians 2:8-9
9 NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

So we are saved by FAITH...
NOT OF WORKS.

The N.T. COMPARES faith to works...
It contrasts the two.

So FAITH is NOT a work...or they could not be contrasted.

Romans 3:27-28
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:2-4
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

Galatians 3:11-12
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary,

FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
As is taught by the N.T. writers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is making a decision a work ?

Yes to make a decision is a work, no not a physical activity you do with say your hands, arms, legs or body muscles and mass, but a mental work, labor. Lets take for instance a person who may be on a sodium restriction, and they're in a grocery store about to buy a can of soup. They observe many different soup labels on the shelf, so they began to read the nutrition contents as it pertains to sodium. They see a can with the label reading 110 mg sodium, a can reading 220 mg sodium, and one reading 550 mg sodium, which can of soup should they purchase ? To say the least a decision has to be made. How is that decision derived ? You must think, consider , weigh the pros and cons, which all are mental activities of the mind, its mental work, it takes mental exertion effort to do this. Now so it is when its being taught that a person , in order to get saved, they must make a decision for Christ !

I don't think making a decision is a WORK.

I think God already did that WORK for us since it is HE that has already made every single decision for us way back before the beginning (or whatever you wish to call it).

Rather silly argument, isn't it?

As I've often said on these threads:
Calvinism makes no sense.

And God is not a God of confusion.

 

[Butch5]

Why won't you speak to me?

Look what you wrote:
Ephesians 2:8-9
9 NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

So we are saved by FAITH...
NOT OF WORKS.

The N.T. COMPARES faith to works...
It contrasts the two.

So FAITH is NOT a work...or they could not be contrasted.

Romans 3:27-28
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:2-4
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

Galatians 3:11-12
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary,

FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
As is taught by the N.T. writers.

Also, if we keep reading we see what Paul means by works. He goes on to explain how Christ has ended the Mosaic Law. The Law is the works he's speaking of. This is what Calvinists miss. They try to claim that works means anything one does. They are adding their own definition rather than letting the Bible define what works are.

 

[Edward]

Revelation 2:
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.../

 

[GodsGrace]

Also, if we keep reading we see what Paul means by works. He goes on to explain how Christ has ended the Mosaic Law. The Law is the works he's speaking of. This is what Calvinists miss. They try to claim that works means anything one does. They are adding their own definition rather than letting the Bible define what works are.

I'm sorry to say that Calvinists add their own definition to many verses in the N.T. especially.

As you well know, this is necessary or their doctrine will have no legs to stand on.
For any one doctrine to be correct, many others have to be bent out of shape to fit in.

It's really sad to see the character of God changed ... as they do.
This is my main misgiving with the reformed.

 

[Edward]

Yes to make a decision is a work, no not a physical activity you do with say your hands, arms, legs or body muscles and mass, but a mental work, labor.

That's a pretty far stretch don't you think? Where I come from they call that, thinking in ones mind. A work or labor has all to do with actions by the flesh body. For instance, let's take, mmm... Matthew 5: 14-16
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.../

The Strongs entry for the word works is G2041 ergon

The KJV translates Strong's G2041 in the following manner: work (152x), deed (22x), doing (1x), labour (1x).

1. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work.

Thinking isn't work in the general sense. So you think about it, make a decision how to act, and perform a bodily act which is the work.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't. You're making a claim that is clearly anti biblical. God clearly told them to choose. That means there is a perquisite.

My point is scriptural, its truth.