Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[GodsGrace]

I have no intention of looking down upon the brethren. What happens is angst against doctrines of men that we get fed from religious organizations, and that particularly when the Scripture in question is common sense and just not that difficult to understand.

Hi DavidT
You've written a lot and I'll respond to all, but it's 10pm here and I'm just too tired.
I tell you this because I see that you're online .

Just one question before tomorrow...
Was Pharoah's heart hardened even before God said that HE would harden it?

Does this remind you of Romans 1 where it states that God gave them over to their own lusts?
Romans 1. 20 to 24

 

[Prycejosh1987]

While it is true that salvation is a free gift, that free gift requires action to be obtained. If someone says they are giving out free M&Ms at the store in USA, in LA, on Friday, it takes being at the store, traveling to the store, and believing what is said, and also listening to the directions and guidance of requirements it takes to obtain those chocolate M&Ms.

In spiritual context we must have a heart that suits heaven, believe in what Jesus Christ said, follow His special requirements which are believing in Him and showing that belief in every sense. Biblically speaking. We must be able to love the sweets on offer and travel as long and as far as we need to to get those sweets.

What i am saying is salvation is free in the sense that its easliy obtained, but the journey to keeping that salvation is long and hard. Its like buying a business for £1, but then having to run that business, pay everyone monthly, pay bills, and create ideas, etc, requires great effort.

 

[JLB]

Many of God's laws are still... in place today among Christian society.

His commandments and laws were in place in heaven and earth before the law of Moses was added, and remain in place after the law of Moses was abolished.


His eternal laws and commandments did not originate with Moses.


Abraham walk in obedience to them 430 years before the law was added.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5








JLB

 

[DavidT]

Hi DavidT
You've written a lot and I'll respond to all, but it's 10pm here and I'm just too tired.
I tell you this because I see that you're online .

Just one question before tomorrow...
Was Pharoah's heart hardened even before God said that HE would harden it?

Does this remind you of Romans 1 where it states that God gave them over to their own lusts?
Romans 1. 20 to 24

I believe so, yes, that He had already ordained Pharaoh for that purpose, which is how I read Exodus 9:16.

The Romans 1:20-24 Scripture is really about a different subject. It's how God has shown man about Himself through His creation, yet the profane still choose to worship the 'creation' instead of The Creator.

With Pharaoh, God showed that He set him up in position particularly for that purpose, so as to show His mercy upon whom He will, and not upon those whom He will not, in that case, Pharaoh and his people. What Apostle Paul is showing us is that God often works in mysterious ways according to HIS higher purpose, and not according to how we would like to think.

So really the next question ought to be, does this mean Pharaoh and his can never be saved? For this present world time, yes. But for the world to come when Jesus begins His future "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved nations, then possibly then (not really our call). In Revelation 3, Jesus speaking to the Church of Philadelphia, He told them the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" will be made to come and worship at the feet of His elect. That event will only happen after Jesus' future return, and during His future reign with His elect over the nations. Christ's faithful will be priests in that time, with the job of teaching the people the difference between the holy and profane, and the clean and unclean.

 

[DavidT]

His commandments and laws were in place in heaven and earth before the law of Moses was added, and remain in place after the law of Moses was abolished.

The 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger did some excellent scholarly research on that, per his book The Witness of The Stars. He documented from ancient archaeological ruins how the names and meanings of the 12 star constellations were originally different, and were aligned with God's Word, but were later corrupted on earth by pagan idolatry from the wicked.

His eternal laws and commandments did not originate with Moses.

Abraham walk in obedience to them 430 years before the law was added.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

JLB

Yet man keeps trying to break His laws, disregarding His laws He set forth in His creation. Like Mad-cow disease; it happens because some greedy idiots thought to put animal byproducts in cattle feed. God designed cattle to process grains, not meat. So the cows came down with Mad-cow disease, caused by man disregarding or being ignorant of God's laws.

 

[GodsGrace]

While it is true that salvation is a free gift, that free gift requires action to be obtained. If someone says they are giving out free M&Ms at the store in USA, in LA, on Friday, it takes being at the store, traveling to the store, and believing what is said, and also listening to the directions and guidance of requirements it takes to obtain those chocolate M&Ms.

In spiritual context we must have a heart that suits heaven, believe in what Jesus Christ said, follow His special requirements which are believing in Him and showing that belief in every sense. Biblically speaking. We must be able to love the sweets on offer and travel as long and as far as we need to to get those sweets.

What i am saying is salvation is free in the sense that its easliy obtained, but the journey to keeping that salvation is long and hard. Its like buying a business for £1, but then having to run that business, pay everyone monthly, pay bills, and create ideas, etc, requires great effort.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Maybe you're a new Christian?

I think that once you've decided to be a Christian and practice what Jesus taught, it becomes easy once you learn that it will be so only at the time that Jesus tells you to do something or not do something.

This is what it means to follow the Holy Spirit's guidance.
It's been my experience that unless GOD tells you to behave in a certain way...it will not be easy to do.

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
This is because His sheep love the pastor and obey Him and stay close to Him in safe quarters.
But we must stay there because we WANT to and until we want to it will not be easy.

Or maybe it just gets easier as you live your life and make God a part of it?

 

[JLB]

Many of God's laws are still... in place today among Christian society. One of them is the law against murder. Apostle Paul listed some of them as part of his entrust with The Gospel per 1 Timothy 1. Thus there is no debating this; either one believes Apostle Paul in those New Testament Scriptures, or they don't and thus default to their 'own' false fancies against The Word of God. (I'm not Jewish either, by the way, I am a Protestant Christian, non-denominational.)

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10


His commandments are about love; Loving God and loving His children.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Obeying Him and His commandments is how we demonstrate our love for Him.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Obeying His commandments are how we remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


I can say these things while at the same time, declare that the law of Moses has been abolished, set aside, taken out of the way, having been nailed to the cross.


The reason I can say these two seemingly contradictory things is, I understand that His eternal commandments such as found in the 10 Commandments did not originate with the law of Moses.


The law of Moses was “added”… until the Seed should come.


By saying “added”, the Spirit is indicating that the law of Moses was a part of something greater.


I hope we can discuss these things in a peaceful way.




JLB

 

[Randy]

Grace from God not of ourselves
God sent the gospel to sinful man. He sought, not man. Those that listen to the Father and learned from Him go to Jesus. As Jesus stated, "all those who the Father gives Him will come to Him". Many in Jesus's day on earth didn't believe in Him because Jesus stated they weren't His sheep. He stated His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

To those in Judaism its about torah. They try to establish their own righteous. As is written, "Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."

But we know Gods righteousness and it was credited to us by faith. As is written, For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And speaking of faith there is a context of not just believing in Jesus but loving Him. Which states the Spirit of truth is with you before it was in you.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. 17This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

 

[JLB]

Grace from God not of ourselves
God sent the gospel to sinful man. He sought, not man. Those that listen to the Father and learned from Him go to Jesus. As Jesus stated, "all those who the Father gives Him will come to Him". Many in Jesus's day on earth didn't believe in Him because Jesus stated they weren't His sheep. He stated His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

To those in Judaism its about torah. They try to establish their own righteous. As is written, "Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."

But we know Gods righteousness and it was credited to us by faith. As is written, For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

And speaking of faith there is a context of not just believing in Jesus but loving Him. Which states the Spirit of truth is with you before it was in you.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. 17This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

 

[Randy]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

That's the love context I see in those who are really Jesus's disciples.
Jesus=>If you love me you will obey me. Then He and His Father will make their home with us.

 

[JLB]

That's the love context I see in those who are really Jesus's disciples.
Jesus=>If you love me you will obey me. Then He and His Father will make their home with us.

Well said sir.

 

[jaybo]

Do you really need a law to command you not to kill? Not to steal? Not to worship idols? Not to commit adultery? Not give false testimony against your neighbor? Not to desire your neighbor’s house, your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor?

If you struggle with these desires then you need Jesus Christ. If you already have Jesus as your Savior you don't need laws to tell you not to do these things; you are guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Do you really need a law to command you not to kill? Not to steal? Not to worship idols? Not to commit adultery? Not give false testimony against your neighbor? Not to desire your neighbor’s house, your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor?

If you struggle with these desires then you need Jesus Christ. If you already have Jesus as your Savior you don't need laws to tell you not to do these things; you are guided by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit empowers us to keep the laws and commandments that are written on our heart.



JLB

 

[jaybo]

The Holy Spirit empowers us to keep the laws and commandments that are written on our heart.



JLB

Correct, which is why the OT laws, written in stone and on parchment, i.e., external to us, don't apply to Christians.

 

[JLB]

Correct, which is why the OT laws, written in stone and on parchment, i.e., external to us, don't apply to Christians.

The law of Moses which was added until the Messiah should come has been done away with, set aside, taken out of the way and therefore nailed to the cross. Now we no longer sacrifice animals for our sins, nor do we stone people to death for picking up sticks to kindle a fire on the Sabbath.

Those who are in Christ and have His Spirit within, are to obey Christ Jesus and the law of Christ, with His Commandments and laws written on our heart.

• Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3




JLB

 

[Randy]

Hi DavidT
You've written a lot and I'll respond to all, but it's 10pm here and I'm just too tired.
I tell you this because I see that you're online .

Just one question before tomorrow...
Was Pharoah's heart hardened even before God said that HE would harden it?

Does this remind you of Romans 1 where it states that God gave them over to their own lusts?
Romans 1. 20 to 24

I think Pharaoh was a conceited absolute ruler before Moses appeared to him in Gods behalf. Pharaoh cared about Pharaoh. He reacted with anger and vengeance against the decrees and actions of the living God as God knew his heart. On the invisible or spiritual outlook I think Pharaoh was enslaved to Satan.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Pharaoh was a conceited absolute ruler before Moses appeared to him in Gods behalf. Pharaoh cared about Pharaoh. He reacted with anger and vengeance against the decrees and actions of the living God as God knew his heart. On the invisible or spiritual outlook I think Pharaoh was enslaved to Satan.

Agreed.

Pharaoh was one of those persons that God leaves to themselves, as is stated in
Romans 1:28-32
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

God does not purposefully harden the heart of any man...
God desires all men to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4
If God sent His only Son to die for the forgiveness of our sins,,,why would such a God harden anyone's heart?

If we check in Exodus, we see that Pharaoh already had a hardened heart, just as you've pointed out.

Exodus 4:21
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 8:32
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

The Ten Plagues and Pharaoh’s Heart​

1. Blood: Pharaoh’s heart “became hard” (7:22)
2. Frogs: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (8:15)
3. Gnats: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (8:19)
4. Flies: “Pharaoh hardened his own heart” (8:32)
5. Livestock die: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (9:7)
6. Boils: “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (9:12)
7. Hail: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (9:34)
8. Locusts: God announces that he has “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:1,10:20)
9. Darkness: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:27)
10. Death of the firstborn: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (11:10)

Here we are able to draw several conclusions. First of all, in plagues 6-10, we hear four times that God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Can you see how this is a distinct change from plagues 1-5? In those stories, Pharaoh explicitly hardened his own heart (plagues 2 and 4), or the source of the hardening was ambiguous (plagues 1, 3, and 5). Interestingly, in the seventh plague of hail, we first see Pharaoh harden his own heart (Exodus 9:34), but afterward the narrator uses the ambiguous verb “became hard” to describe it. This means that all of the other uses of the ambiguous verb (plagues 1, 3, and 5) do not imply that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but just the opposite!

source: https://bibleproject.com/blog/pharaohs-heart-grew-harder/​

 

[Randy]

Agreed.

Pharaoh was one of those persons that God leaves to themselves, as is stated in
Romans 1:28-32
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

God does not purposefully harden the heart of any man...
God desires all men to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4
If God sent His only Son to die for the forgiveness of our sins,,,why would such a God harden anyone's heart?

If we check in Exodus, we see that Pharaoh already had a hardened heart, just as you've pointed out.

Exodus 4:21
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 8:32
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

The Ten Plagues and Pharaoh’s Heart​

1. Blood: Pharaoh’s heart “became hard” (7:22)
2. Frogs: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (8:15)
3. Gnats: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (8:19)
4. Flies: “Pharaoh hardened his own heart” (8:32)
5. Livestock die: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (9:7)
6. Boils: “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (9:12)
7. Hail: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (9:34)
8. Locusts: God announces that he has “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:1,10:20)
9. Darkness: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:27)
10. Death of the firstborn: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (11:10)

Here we are able to draw several conclusions. First of all, in plagues 6-10, we hear four times that God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Can you see how this is a distinct change from plagues 1-5? In those stories, Pharaoh explicitly hardened his own heart (plagues 2 and 4), or the source of the hardening was ambiguous (plagues 1, 3, and 5). Interestingly, in the seventh plague of hail, we first see Pharaoh harden his own heart (Exodus 9:34), but afterward the narrator uses the ambiguous verb “became hard” to describe it. This means that all of the other uses of the ambiguous verb (plagues 1, 3, and 5) do not imply that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but just the opposite!

source: https://bibleproject.com/blog/pharaohs-heart-grew-harder/​

What God did was command Pharaoh to let His people go and each time Pharaoh refused God brought plagues upon Egypt with the final the most extreme. The death angel to strike down every firstborn. Those are the only actions I read about what God did do. How Pharaoh reacted was His own doing. He hardened his heart. From a spiritual point of view when God leaves somebody alone He withdraws His protection from the evil one. We read that Satan had to seek permission to sift Peter and bring disaster on Job. But unlike Job Pharaoh had other Gods or considered himself God and was arrogant and conceited. The actions God took caused such a person to react negatively towards Him which God knew. In that context God hardened Pharaohs heart. So we agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

What God did was command Pharaoh to let His people go and each time Pharaoh refused God brought plagues upon Egypt with the final the most extreme. The death angel to strike down every firstborn. Those are the only actions I read about what God did do. How Pharaoh reacted was His own doing. He hardened his heart. From a spiritual point of view when God leaves somebody alone He withdraws His protection from the evil one. We read that Satan had to seek permission to sift Peter and bring disaster on Job. But unlike Job Pharaoh had other Gods or considered himself God and was arrogant and conceited. The actions God took caused such a person to react negatively towards Him which God knew. In that context God hardened Pharaohs heart. So we agree.

Yes, we agree.
Also, the statement GOD GAVE THEM OVER....
means, basically, that God abandoned them to their own doing...He withdraws His protection, as you've stated.
It's not that God CAUSES evil...it's that He does not stop it, as in the case of Pharaoh.

 

[Butch5]

Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This statement is a non sequitur. obeying a command does not equate to saving one's self. The idea of works salvation is misnomer. Obedience does not negate grace. Those who argue the Reformed position use "works salvation" as a red herring to negate the necessity of obedience.