Conditional salvation is works salvation !

[Dorothy Mae]

Contrary to what you think, learning about God is as pointless as learning about the taste of a freshly harvested ripe mango. You either know it by tasting it or you don't. When one knows God, one understands Their teachings; when one doesn't know God, one doesn't understand Their teachings (John 8:47).

Just by reading Paul -- and most Christian preachers -- I know they know nothing of God. They only have intellectual understanding about Them... and Jesus made it clear intellectual understanding is useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21)

Those who call others nasty names don’t know God.

 

[JLB]

This position is not reflected in the New Testament answers when anyone asked what they must DO to be saved. No one answered, “nothing at all.”

Yet, that is exactly what brightfame52 is asking us to shallow; hook, line and sinker!

A “doing nothing”, “believe nothing” and “obey no one” salvation.


This hyper grace theology has many deceived, and has no scriptural support.


The Holy Spirit warned us about such doctrines.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yet, that is exactly what brightfame52 is asking us to shallow; hook, line and sinker!

A “doing nothing”, “believe nothing” and “obey no one” salvation.


This hyper grace theology has many deceived, and has no scriptural support.


The Holy Spirit warned us about such doctrines.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

It’s a pretty terrible theology. Instead of freedom to be Jesus more and more often to one’s world, one can selfishly soothe the conscience with the theology that insists doing anything at all is wrong. I once asked one of these if loving God was also one of those verboten and odious works. They agreed that loving God was also a w o r k (to be avoided “lest one boast.”) I was astonished.

 

[JLB]

They agreed that loving God was also a w o r k (to be avoided “lest one boast.”) I was astonished.

Amen, loving God by obeying his command to love our neighbor is what we are called to do. Love is an action of obedience.


Biblical love is defined for us by God Himself.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15





JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Amen, loving God by obeying his command to love our neighbor is what we are called to do. Love is an action of obedience.


Biblical love is defined for us by God Himself.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15





JLB

You know, by the blood of Jesus we are set free to do all of the above. And when one does and tastes of this (now and again is all most of us can manage) it’s so wonderful!

 

[PeterJens]

Contrary to what you think, learning about God is as pointless as learning about the taste of a freshly harvested ripe mango. You either know it by tasting it or you don't. When one knows God, one understands Their teachings; when one doesn't know God, one doesn't understand Their teachings (John 8:47).

Just by reading Paul -- and most Christian preachers -- I know they know nothing of God. They only have intellectual understanding about Them... and Jesus made it clear intellectual understanding is useless (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21)

I am not quite sure what you mean.
If I translate the content of your statement, "You do not know God, Paul did not know God, most christian preachers do not know God" "I know they know nothing of God"

That is a statement of a view and a judgement on strangers. You may be correct in your judgement, but I have nothing to either agree with or disagree with. I know Pauls writing very well, and He knew Jesus, theology, the Holy Spirit and preached the same gospel as Jesus and the apostles. Jesus preached repent and believe, which Paul also preached confirmed by a changed life. Peter preached to be certain of faith one needs to live in brotherly love.

Your position here is Paul knew nothing of God, so on this basis I have to disagree, which also 99% of conservative theologians would also disagree with.

I am cautious to not pass any judgement on anyone outside clear heresy or sinful behaviour. Unfortunately as Pauls writings make up 40% of the new testament, to deny Pauls authority is a heretical position. I would go so far as to say to agree with Paul and the complexity he presents would mean probably one is on a firm foundation of faith.

One of Pauls central themes is love is the fulfilment of the Mosaic law, so if you live in love you are perfect in Christ. I would guess you would disagree with Pauls position. If one reads leviticus 19, it is obvious Jesus is expounding what the Lord had already given in the Mosaic law, rather than something different, and Paul was continuing this in the church. I can go into more detail than this, but this probably suffices to highlight the fundamental differences between the two of us. God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Yet, that is exactly what brightfame52 is asking us to shallow; hook, line and sinker!

A “doing nothing”, “believe nothing” and “obey no one” salvation.


This hyper grace theology has many deceived, and has no scriptural support.


The Holy Spirit warned us about such doctrines.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

The scripture does support Salvation by Grace apart from works ! Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All of Salvation is grounded in Grace, even the Faith. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

One believes as they are saved by Grace !

 

[JLB]

The scripture does support Salvation by Grace apart from works ! Eph 2:8-9

Of course it does!

However that’s not the discussion point.


The point of discussion is the condition by which we are saved.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?


The scripture teaches us plainly, that they had to believe in order to be saved.


The condition required for a person to be saved is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


The condition remains the same for everyone (including the elect), they must believe in order to be saved.

It doesn’t matter what you think the word “whoever” means, the condition for salvation is “believe”.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus

The elect must believe in order to be saved.




JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The scripture does support Salvation by Grace apart from works ! Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All of Salvation is grounded in Grace, even the Faith. The Christian believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

One believes as they are saved by Grace !

Is repentance a “work?”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course it does!

However that’s not the discussion point.


The point of discussion is the condition by which we are saved.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?


The scripture teaches us plainly, that they had to believe in order to be saved.


The condition required for a person to be saved is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


The condition remains the same for everyone (including the elect), they must believe in order to be saved.

It doesn’t matter what you think the word “whoever” means, the condition for salvation is “believe”.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus

The elect must believe in order to be saved.




JLB

The elect must believe in order to among the elect. Same as the elect angels needed to refuse to rebel in order to be among the elect angels. (That angels are called “elect” throws a kink in the “elected before they did anything” theology.)

 

[brightfame52]

Of course it does!

However that’s not the discussion point.


The point of discussion is the condition by which we are saved.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?


The scripture teaches us plainly, that they had to believe in order to be saved.


The condition required for a person to be saved is to believe.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


The condition remains the same for everyone (including the elect), they must believe in order to be saved.

It doesn’t matter what you think the word “whoever” means, the condition for salvation is “believe”.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus

The elect must believe in order to be saved.




JLB

You cant have salvation by Grace, and then by works, conditions at the same time, it just wont work !

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You cant have salvation by Grace, and then by works, conditions at the same time, it just wont work !

“Unless you repent you will likewise perish” Jesus

“If you do it forgive those who sin against you, neither will your sins be forgiven.” Jesus

Sounds like conditions. And yet Jesus above all men knew salvation is by grace. I think the problem is assuming saved by grace means no conditions. The NT supports grace and also conditions.

 

[JLB]

You cant have salvation by Grace, and then by works, conditions at the same time, it just wont work !

I have not mentioned salvation by works.


I gave what Jesus so plainly stated, which is to believe.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

QUESTION —

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have not mentioned salvation by works.


I gave what Jesus so plainly stated, which is to believe.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

QUESTION —

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?



JLB

I know, I know….the Devil. Right?

 

[JLB]

I know, I know….the Devil. Right?

They simply did not believe… and therefore they were not saved.


Believe = Saved


How can a person believe in the One they have never heard of?

• how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Is repentance a “work?”

Yes, its something a regenerated man does. God gives it to His Elect when He gives them a New Birth with a New Heart.

 

[brightfame52]

“Unless you repent you will likewise perish” Jesus

“If you do it forgive those who sin against you, neither will your sins be forgiven.” Jesus

Sounds like conditions. And yet Jesus above all men knew salvation is by grace. I think the problem is assuming saved by grace means no conditions. The NT supports grace and also conditions.

Thats true unless a person repents they will perish, yet it is God who gives repentance to the Elect. The Salvation of the Elect isn't conditioned upon their repentance, no, repentance is an evidence that God has saved a person ! See God/Christ gives repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

 

[JLB]

God gives it to His Elect when He gives them a New Birth with a New Heart.

Can you provide scripture that says only the “elect” are given the new birth?

 

[brightfame52]

I have not mentioned salvation by works.


I gave what Jesus so plainly stated, which is to believe.


Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

Words of Christ in red:


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

QUESTION —

What prevented these people being described here by Jesus, from being saved?



JLB

You dont have to literally say the words, " Salvation by works" Yet if you condition Salvation based upon anything the sinner must do, thats what it equates to, Salvation by works, by doing something.

 

[JLB]

God gives it to His Elect when He gives them a New Birth with a New Heart.

Can you provide scripture that says only the “elect” are given the new birth?


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they alsomay obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Salvation is obtained the same for all people: obeying Jesus Christ.




JLB