CONFESSING OUR BELIEFS

[Not_Now.Soon]

We have a nice, new member that has posted the following in the forum for New Members.
I have his permission to move it to here because I found it so interesting.

I'd have a few questions for both Seasoned by Grace, our new member, and all the participants:

1. Is it important to know church history?

I think in general history is important, and it is important for society as a whole more then it is for individuals who are interested. What I mean by this is that if history is part of our culture then our actions can learn from it as a whole. However there is also a warning I have for history. I have this warning because I'm not a scholar or a history buff,mand don't know how to sift through the good stuff from the crap made up. The warning is that there is crap that is untrue and deceitful. Double standards and misinformation that is through it all. I read a book on the history of Bethleham which was interesting and gave an account that was not pretty for any of the main characters in history. The book also seemed to openly voice squabbles with other historians, and to interpreted modern times a very specific way politically (when it got to modern times). That was a bit of a wake up call, because when studing history, who's version of history are you studying.

Therefore while I think history as a subject is important as a whole, I think there are more important things to hold to as our foundations and not get lost sifting through. Indivually speaking it's not important for everyone to study history, but it is important for enough people to study it and have that information as part of our culture.

2. How, or what, can make us feel secure when standing before God (even in this life)

I wish I knew. All I can say is to hope on God and think of Him as a loving Father, like your own dad or like a good dad that you've met who loves his kids. That kind of example is the best I have for getting past the mountians of "how to"s that state being a Christian means doing this and not that. It's the best because when I look at my dad, I know he wants me to succeed, and not to fail. I have to hope on God to be like that and even more so is on our side trying to encourage us, even while trying to make us mature.

3. In light of Matthew 7:21, who are the few that will find the narrow gate?
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

What can we do to earn our salvation,mand who can do it? To do it through works I think of it like being a monk who lets go of all ties to the world to live in seculusion and not let temptation come into his life. And I'm not sure that would be enough, nor that this is what is asked for by Jesus. To do it through study and finding the narrow path seems just as difficult as it would to remove yourself from society, because there is so much to study and get lost in. Many scholars and professors who make a life out of studying don't agree with eachother. So this might not be the narrow path either, nor again is it what Jesus seemed to say.

Although I would say both of those are important for everyone to do in their own lives, I think the narrow path is Jesus Himself. That's at least my current thought. Nothing we can do can earn us our way to heaven, but Jesus already walked that narrow way and made it open for any of us to follow by just following Jesus and believing on Him. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. And perhaps that also means He is the narrow way as well. The Narow path. This might seem to be the broad path until you talk to a person who doesn't believe in God nor in Jesus. Then after talking to them you might see the blessing of finding Jesus, because many don't even find the narrow path, and never find Jesus. Follow Him and cling to Him so that we don't fall off the path or lose our way.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If I may.
Actually, it's by God's efforts that we are lead to the "NARROW GATE".
Jesus is the NARROW GATE spoken of here as an analogy, and in John 6:44
Jesus said, "No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me," DRAWS THEM"!

God bless us all as we seek His guidance and TRUTH together.
My name is OLIGOS

You said it before I could.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Hi HeIsRisen,

Yeah,,,I was agreeing with what you had posted...I just added some extra verses that agree with what you stated.

I also agree that we should not take our salvation for granted.
We should appreciate it every day and thank God that we have the knowledge of Him !

Regarding the murderer, I do want to say that IF he repents and turns to God,,,he WILL be forgiven if he then follows the ways of God. Would you agree with that?

And your last paragraph is right on target !
Here's what you said:

"Either way I think we can all agree that nobody can enter the kingdom of Heaven if it wasn't for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and that if you truly know Christ than you are guaranteed to be saved. "

Agreed a hundred percent with all of the above and wow,.. this forum has definitely changed for the better. The reason why I was so afraid of posting on this thread before is I literally got attacked for having different beliefs than most Christians,.. but so far everybody on here has respected them and didn't try to shame me for them or tell me I was wrong or anything. Thank you so much guys, that really means a lot to me. :')

 

[OzSpen]

We have a nice, new member that has posted the following in the forum for New Members.
I have his permission to move it to here because I found it so interesting.

I'd have a few questions for both Seasoned by Grace, our new member, and all the participants:

1. Is it important to know church history?

2. How, or what, can make us feel secure when standing before God (even in this life)

3. In light of Matthew 7:21, who are the few that will find the narrow gate?
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "


Here is the post by Seasoned by Grace:

**********************************************************************************

what I share will reflect 42 years of reading, studying, and researching scripture, and especially the last 5 years of my 17 years of my retirement, have been incredibly intense, putting together a huge library of study tools, and creating a library of over 550, commentaries spending many thousands of hours studying the history of Christianity, the history of the bible, world history going back to creation, and studying koine Greek - the language Jesus spoke and the common language of the day over most of the world, and studying every biblical topic that the Holy Spirit brought to me to study.
I am not a scholar or know it all. I just wanted Gods truth for myself, and then for those God brought to me.
Romans 14:22 says, "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God,
happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves."

Many years ago when I first became a follower of Christ, things I heard in the church and things I saw done or sometimes left out, made me question whether I had really become a believer, and was I really in the right church. What was the right church?
I needed to know. My life depended on it.
So for the next 42 years, I have sought the answers, and God through the leading of the Holy Spirit, and much prayer for the truth, has blessed me to come to the conclusions I needed to feel secure in my standing before Christ each day, and when I stand before Him after my physical life ends.
1st Peter 4:18, Peter said, "If it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner?" A dire warning to believers, along with many other warnings.

My faith has been adjusted several times over the last 42 years, as God has commanded it should, and my faith in many ways doesn't resemble much of what the Christian culture as a whole calls Christianity today, because of all the major discrepancies in all the mainline faiths beliefs and teachings, and even the smaller individual churches who's doctrines are not able to be saved by either.

There is only one way to salvation, not the many we have today, and it only comes from Gods word, and God says in Matthew 7:14, and Luke 13:23-23 that "FEW" who call themselves believers will enter His kingdom of heaver. Read Matthew 7:21 and the verses before and after - SCARY.

God bless you all.
My name is OLIGOS

*********************************************************************
highlighting is mine.

wondering,

1. Knowing church history is critical in my understanding to,

(a) Know where the church has come since the Book of Acts;
(b) To see the challenges to the faith that the church has had to overcome, e.g. Gnosticism, Arianism, development of monolithic church structures, RC indulgences, etc.
(c) To show us what to look for with false doctrine and heresies.

2. What can make us secure before God? I've deliberately left out the 'feel' because how I feel about anything can change because of my circumstances.

My security is based on John 6: 44, 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day' (ESV). I would not be sitting here typing unless I had been drawn to Jesus by the Father. This security enables me to stand strong in the midst of a secular culture that challenges foundations of Christianity.

3. In light of Matthew 7:21, who are the few that will find the narrow gate?
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

This is a 'scary' verse that challenges me to my core Christian being. The 'few' are the ones drawn by the Father to Jesus. This is not an elitist group but those who bow the knee, honour him as Lord, and do not seek the miraculous (see surrounding verses) to demonstrate they have entered by the narrow gate.

I'm open to more penetrating enlightenment on Matt 7:21 and the context.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Well,
I wouldn't go quite that far.
Sure we all have to do something. James (Jesus'half brother) says so. Satan believes and shudders. So actions in a positive manner are necessary.
You can't earn your way into Heaven either. Our bests gifts on our best days are still disgusting bits of trash.

But trying to emulate Jesus out of a deep sense of gratitude...that's character or fertile soil. That's the kind of behavior Jesus is looking for. The kind that faith generated...and generated with passion so driven that... well... people have given up their lives for this.
Many of them foolishly and without proper preparation or tools to complete their tasks.
But in some instances that's love too.

So complicated what God has to dig through. The difficult choices to make. Glad it's Him doing so.

Two comments John....

1. I put our "efforts" in quotation marks because because our effort is necessary.
Call it good deeds, call it works, call it effort, whatever you want to call it...our deeds and efforts are necessary for our salvation to be valid. Faith with no works is a dead faith. The other member spoke of a faith that is ALIVE....To be alive, a faith must necessarily include our part.

As we are told:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

I do believe we agree on this but are probably using different words, or concepts.


2. As to the "disgusting bits of trash" ... I do believe you're referring to
Isaiah 64:6b
5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


This scripture is referring to those that keep on sinning....
whose works are SELF-RIGHTEOUS works..
by persons that allow themselves to be taken away by sinning.

But those who are saved are not like the ones above...
our works are not self-righteous works...
but works done for God and in His name.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I may.
Actually, it's by God's efforts that we are lead to the "NARROW GATE".
Jesus is the NARROW GATE spoken of here as an analogy, and in John 6:44
Jesus said, "No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me," DRAWS THEM"!

God bless us all as we seek His guidance and TRUTH together.
My name is OLIGOS

You said that it is by GOD'S EFFORTS that we are lead to the narrow gate.
And that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them.
What do you mean by God DRAWS THEM?

If I'm putting in "effort" on God's behalf,,,does this mean
I've been drawn?

Different persons mean different ideas about being drawn.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed a hundred percent with all of the above and wow,.. this forum has definitely changed for the better. The reason why I was so afraid of posting on this thread before is I literally got attacked for having different beliefs than most Christians,.. but so far everybody on here has respected them and didn't try to shame me for them or tell me I was wrong or anything. Thank you so much guys, that really means a lot to me. :')

Theology just means the study of God.
Sometimes we have differing opinions about something stated in the bible.
So persons might go back and forth trying to make the other member see it their way.
This is not an attack, but just a way of discussing a particular verse.
If you don't care to do this,,,you just bow out of the discussion...
no harm done and you've still put forth what YOUR beliefs are.

I find the interaction interesting,,,and if it gets out of hand I just....


Don't stay away out of fear!
And if you don't wish to debate...then don't!
But still state what you believe to be true....

 

[jerry63935]

If I'm putting in "effort" on God's behalf,,,does this mean
I've been drawn?

imo our effort to get saved /born again is meaningless . for this reason it is a spiritual birth .God has to be dealing with your heart .the Holy spirit knocks on your heart. we can call it drawing /leading /conviction . its a spiritual birth i like the song i had a birth i cant remember and one i cant forget . see before i got saved i had tried to quit cussing .i had quit drinking and smoking weed. on the inside i was a wreck i missed the weed the beer .the cussing like a sailor .i even listened to a bible program back to the Bible . i understood what he was saying. but still all this was self effort . my explanation of drawing is the Night i got saved. i heard God speak to my heart and say its NOW OR NEVER .i took the now i never try to get anyone saved. i might say in a message at the end if your not saved raise your hand while no one is looking. i simply pray and extend the invitation . yes i am very much free will . my belief is if the Holy spirit the anointing aint there . it is meaningless the result self effort

 

[GodsGrace]

I think in general history is important, and it is important for society as a whole more then it is for individuals who are interested. What I mean by this is that if history is part of our culture then our actions can learn from it as a whole. However there is also a warning I have for history. I have this warning because I'm not a scholar or a history buff,mand don't know how to sift through the good stuff from the crap made up. The warning is that there is crap that is untrue and deceitful. Double standards and misinformation that is through it all. I read a book on the history of Bethleham which was interesting and gave an account that was not pretty for any of the main characters in history. The book also seemed to openly voice squabbles with other historians, and to interpreted modern times a very specific way politically (when it got to modern times). That was a bit of a wake up call, because when studing history, who's version of history are you studying.

Of course, I believe knowing the history of Christianity is very important.
How to know what is true?
I don't read anymore...so I watch a lot of YouTube....
Reputable person, that teach or have a doctorate.
They have to agree with each other and I also read a lot on the net these days and that also has to be filtered.

And I do go to a bible study, but with reservations.....
And I do go to study with a catholic monk (or is it friar?) and he's incredibly well-read and knowledgeable.

I find a lot of good and valuable information on this link, which is by a member here...

Truth Challenge

truthchallenge.one

Therefore while I think history as a subject is important as a whole, I think there are more important things to hold to as our foundations and not get lost sifting through. Indivually speaking it's not important for everyone to study history, but it is important for enough people to study it and have that information as part of our culture.

Yes, most are not interested, but I've found it very helpful in understanding the N.T.
and what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

I wish I knew. All I can say is to hope on God and think of Him as a loving Father, like your own dad or like a good dad that you've met who loves his kids. That kind of example is the best I have for getting past the mountians of "how to"s that state being a Christian means doing this and not that. It's the best because when I look at my dad, I know he wants me to succeed, and not to fail. I have to hope on God to be like that and even more so is on our side trying to encourage us, even while trying to make us mature.

I believe what can make us feel secure when we are standing before God is our trust in Him.
Our trust that He will keep His promises: If we do not deny Him,,,He will not deny us.
Colossians 1:22
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

If we follow Jesus to the best of our ability,,,He will do the above.

What can we do to earn our salvation,mand who can do it? To do it through works I think of it like being a monk who lets go of all ties to the world to live in seculusion and not let temptation come into his life. And I'm not sure that would be enough, nor that this is what is asked for by Jesus. To do it through study and finding the narrow path seems just as difficult as it would to remove yourself from society, because there is so much to study and get lost in. Many scholars and professors who make a life out of studying don't agree with eachother. So this might not be the narrow path either, nor again is it what Jesus seemed to say.

The monk I study with (there's a group of about 15 of us) says that he sins and goes to confession. There is no use separating oneself from the world,,,we sin in different ways.
Study also does not save.

Jesus said what the narrow path is:
Everyone that does the will of the Father.
Those that do not practice lawlessness.
Mattthew 7:21, 23

Although I would say both of those are important for everyone to do in their own lives, I think the narrow path is Jesus Himself. That's at least my current thought. Nothing we can do can earn us our way to heaven, but Jesus already walked that narrow way and made it open for any of us to follow by just following Jesus and believing on Him. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. And perhaps that also means He is the narrow way as well. The Narow path. This might seem to be the broad path until you talk to a person who doesn't believe in God nor in Jesus. Then after talking to them you might see the blessing of finding Jesus, because many don't even find the narrow path, and never find Jesus. Follow Him and cling to Him so that we don't fall off the path or lose our way.

:amen

 

[OzSpen]

You said that it is by GOD'S EFFORTS that we are lead to the narrow gate.
And that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them.
What do you mean by God DRAWS THEM?

If I'm putting in "effort" on God's behalf,,,does this mean
I've been drawn?

Different persons mean different ideas about being drawn.

wondering,

In this post, I'll start with John 6:44 (NASB): 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day'.

This is clear that no act by people can move them towards God. People cannot come without the aid of His grace.

‘Draw’ is from the Greek verb, helkuē, and some extreme Calvinists (e.g. Ligonier Ministries) want this to mean ‘drag’ as in Acts 16:19; 21:30 and James 2:6, and so refer to Irresistible Grace.

In other passages such as John 18:10; and 21:6, 11 it can mean ‘drag’. The LXX uses helkuē in Deut 21:3-4:

3 καὶ ἔσται ἡ πόλις ἡ ἐγγίζουσα τῷ τραυματίᾳ καὶ λήψεται ἡ γερουσία τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης δάμαλιν ἐκ βοῶν, ἥτις οὐκ εἴργασται, καὶ ἥτις οὐχ εἵλκυσε ζυγόν, 4 καὶ καταβιβάσουσιν ἡ γερουσία τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης δάμαλιν εἰς φάραγγα τραχεῖαν, ἥτις οὐκ εἴργασται οὐδὲ σπείρεται, καὶ νευροκοπήσουσι τὴν δάμαλιν ἐν τῇ φάραγγι.

The NASB translates this as: '3 It shall be that the city which is nearest to the slain man, that is, the elders of that city, shall take a heifer of the herd, which has not been worked and which has not pulled in a yoke; 4 and the elders of that city shall bring the heifer down to a valley with running water, which has not been plowed or sown, and shall break the heifer’s neck there in the valley'.

So, helkuē can mean 'drag' in certain contexts.

Does that mean all translations of helkuē must mean ‘drag’? Certainly not! There is a range of meanings for many words and helkuē in the NT is no exception.

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of helkuē in John 6:44 as, ‘figuratively of the pull on man’s inner life’ – John 6:44:12:32 (1957:251).

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

imo our effort to get saved /born again is meaningless . for this reason it is a spiritual birth .God has to be dealing with your heart .the Holy spirit knocks on your heart. we can call it drawing /leading /conviction . its a spiritual birth i like the song i had a birth i cant remember and one i cant forget . see before i got saved i had tried to quit cussing .i had quit drinking and smoking weed. on the inside i was a wreck i missed the weed the beer .the cussing like a sailor .i even listened to a bible program back to the Bible . i understood what he was saying. but still all this was self effort . my explanation of drawing is the Night i got saved. i heard God speak to my heart and say its NOW OR NEVER .i took the now i never try to get anyone saved. i might say in a message at the end if your not saved raise your hand while no one is looking. i simply pray and extend the invitation . yes i am very much free will . my belief is if the Holy spirit the anointing aint there . it is meaningless the result self effort

I agree with all of the above.

But do you note a difference between GETTING SAVED
and what comes after?

Our works do not save us....
We are born from above as Jesus stated in
John 3:3, 5
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The above refers perfectly to your statement that one birth you cannot remember and one birth you cannot forget: Very beautiful BTW.

Are we supposed to do anything after being saved...
I think we're to become disciples of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

1. Knowing church history is critical in my understanding to,

(a) Know where the church has come since the Book of Acts;
(b) To see the challenges to the faith that the church has had to overcome, e.g. Gnosticism, Arianism, development of monolithic church structures, RC indulgences, etc.
(c) To show us what to look for with false doctrine and heresies.

Yes. Agreed 100%
I understand your (c) to be very important as to why we should know church history...
to know what is false doctrine.
The Early Fathers fought against false doctrine and believed in correct doctrine.

2. What can make us secure before God? I've deliberately left out the 'feel' because how I feel about anything can change because of my circumstances.

My security is based on John 6: 44, 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day' (ESV). I would not be sitting here typing unless I had been drawn to Jesus by the Father. This security enables me to stand strong in the midst of a secular culture that challenges foundations of Christianity.

Of course we do not "feel" our salvation but we go by what scripture tells us and what God has revealed about Himself to us. I should have left that word out.

We are to put on the armor of God...
We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities.

The Father draws us to Christ because in Him was salvation planned from the beginning.

3. In light of Matthew 7:21, who are the few that will find the narrow gate?
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

This is a 'scary' verse that challenges me to my core Christian being. The 'few' are the ones drawn by the Father to Jesus. This is not an elitist group but those who bow the knee, honour him as Lord, and do not seek the miraculous (see surrounding verses) to demonstrate they have entered by the narrow gate.

I'm open to more penetrating enlightenment on Matt 7:21 and the context.

Oz

Re Matthew 7:21 --- what you've said covers everything.
Those who bow to the knee are saved.
Those who honor Him as Lord,
Those who are Jesus' disciples (follow His teachings)

And Jesus states who will be saved:

Every good tree bears good fruit
We will know them by their fruits (both false prophets AND the saved)
Those who DO THE WILL of the Father
Those who do NOT practice lawlessness IOW, they keep the Law of God...The Commandments

I think the above covers everything....
I also believe we should be baptized,,,but if we're not, I doubt it means we would not go to be with God...surely He is a merciful God.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

In this post, I'll start with John 6:44 (NASB): 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day'.

This is clear that no act by people can move them towards God. People cannot come without the aid of His grace.

‘Draw’ is from the Greek verb, helkuē, and some extreme Calvinists (e.g. Ligonier Ministries) want this to mean ‘drag’ as in Acts 16:19; 21:30 and James 2:6, and so refer to Irresistible Grace.

In other passages such as John 18:10; and 21:6, 11 it can mean ‘drag’. The LXX uses helkuē in Deut 21:3-4:



The NASB translates this as: '3 It shall be that the city which is nearest to the slain man, that is, the elders of that city, shall take a heifer of the herd, which has not been worked and which has not pulled in a yoke; 4 and the elders of that city shall bring the heifer down to a valley with running water, which has not been plowed or sown, and shall break the heifer’s neck there in the valley'.

So, helkuē can mean 'drag' in certain contexts.

Does that mean all translations of helkuē must mean ‘drag’? Certainly not! There is a range of meanings for many words and helkuē in the NT is no exception.

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of helkuē in John 6:44 as, ‘figuratively of the pull on man’s inner life’ – John 6:44:12:32 (1957:251).

Oz

Hi Oz,
We had spoken about this in a different thread...

Here is what I had come up with:

JOHN 6.44 TO ATTRACT
JOHN 12;32 HAD ATTRACTED
JOHN 18:10 UNSHEATHED
JOHN 21:6 TO PULL
JOHN 21:11 TO DRAW
ACTS 16:19 TO DRAG
ACTS 21:30 TO DRAG
JAMES 2:6 TO DRAG

The above is from my Italian bible which is more closely related to the Greek than are our
English bibles.

I truly fail to understand why ONE WORD is used for so many DIFFERENT IDEAS.

The word draw in our English bibles is used for Greek words that DO NOT MEAN DRAW.....
so why not use the correct English word (as above in my list)???

Anyway...yes, draw has different meanings in different verses.

 

[jerry63935]

But do you note a difference between GETTING SAVED
and what comes after?

that is our walk with the Lord the 2nd phase of sanctification 1st part made holy. 2. grow in the grace and knowledge our walk as we grow .every person is different

I think we're to become disciples of Jesus.

this is our growth discipleship is tough all the things we go through . a spiritual boot camp i do believe one should be baptized after salvation .

 

[GodsGrace]

that is our walk with the Lord the 2nd phase of sanctification 1st part made holy. 2. grow in the grace and knowledge our walk as we grow .every person is different this is our growth discipleship is tough all the things we go through . a spiritual boot camp i do believe one should be baptized after salvation .

Yes, I also believe we should be baptized.
I also agree with you regarding sanctification...
Justification is when we are saved...only God can save us - our works do not save us.
Then comes Sanctification which is a life-long walk with the Lord, as you put it.
We grow at different rates but it's what we do with what we know that counts.
As to all the things we go through....yes,,, when we're strong we should prepare for when we will be weak so that we do not lose faith and abandon God, as I've seen some do.
Oh. And I think discipleship could be easy if we do what GOD tells us when we're ready for it and we don't try to do what MEN tell us to do.

When God tells us we get the strength to do it...
When a man/pastor/priest/whoever, tells us to do it, we may not have the strength yet.

 

[jerry63935]

When a man/pastor/priest/whoever, tells us to do it, we may not have the strength yet.

there only job is to feed the flock
Ephesians 4:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
this does not make us Lords over people lives. the pastor has a very big role in the Church.he is the undershepherd Christ is the great shepherd .

 

[GodsGrace]

there only job is to feed the flock
Ephesians 4:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
this does not make us Lords over people lives. the pastor has a very big role in the Church.he is the undershepherd Christ is the great shepherd .

I agree.
But they do love to give advice...
and sometimes it's even good...

 

[OzSpen]

Yes. Agreed 100%
I understand your (c) to be very important as to why we should know church history...
to know what is false doctrine.
The Early Fathers fought against false doctrine and believed in correct doctrine.


Of course we do not "feel" our salvation but we go by what scripture tells us and what God has revealed about Himself to us. I should have left that word out.

We are to put on the armor of God...
We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities.

The Father draws us to Christ because in Him was salvation planned from the beginning.


Re Matthew 7:21 --- what you've said covers everything.
Those who bow to the knee are saved.
Those who honor Him as Lord,
Those who are Jesus' disciples (follow His teachings)

And Jesus states who will be saved:

Every good tree bears good fruit
We will know them by their fruits (both false prophets AND the saved)
Those who DO THE WILL of the Father
Those who do NOT practice lawlessness IOW, they keep the Law of God...The Commandments

I think the above covers everything....
I also believe we should be baptized,,,but if we're not, I doubt it means we would not go to be with God...surely He is a merciful God.

wondering,

I didn't mention in my response to you that I have taught church history at the Bible College level.

I have a special interest in NT history as my PhD dissertation (dissertation-only in the British system) dealt with how John Dominic Crossan had wrecked an historical understanding of Jesus.

My dissertation is available at: Crossan and the resurrection of Jesus : rethinking presuppositions, methods and models

Be warned! It may be heavy going for you and others who follow the link. This year I plan to create 6 articles from the dissertation to present to academic journals.

I consider church history important because it opens up a panorama of how the church has stayed on track with Scripture or has veered away from the centrality of the Word of God.

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

I agree.
But they do love to give advice...
and sometimes it's even good...

dont we try give advice to our kids? its all part of the job but the greatest advice comes from the one above . its not a easy job

 

[OzSpen]

there only job is to feed the flock
Ephesians 4:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
this does not make us Lords over people lives. the pastor has a very big role in the Church.he is the undershepherd Christ is the great shepherd .

jerry,

Eph 4:11-12 in the Greek reads: 11 καὶ αὐτὸς ἔδωκεν τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους, τοὺς δὲ προφήτας, τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς, τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους, 12 πρὸς τὸν καταρτισμὸν τῶν ἁγίων εἰς ἔργον διακονίας, εἰς οἰκοδομὴν τοῦ σώματος τοῦ χριστοῦ (THGNT).

The NASB gives a good literal translation: '11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ'.

These 2 verses do not confirm your statement: 'only job is to feed the flock'. They are:

• To equip the saints [the holy ones of God] for the work of service/ministry;
• To build up the body of Christ, i.e. edify Christians.

Notice τοὺς δὲ (some as) does not appear before διδασκάλους (teachers). That's because pastor-teacher is seen in this passage as the one gift. However, we know from other NT passages the gift of teacher is mentioned as a separate gift (e.g. 1 Cor 12:28-29; Rom 12:7).

If we examine Eph 4:13-15 we find further evidence of the results of these ministry gifts among us.

Oz